Theology that leads to rebellion?

[glfredrick]

glfrederick,

I, for one, would greatly appreciate if you would refrain from any implication that those who do not hold to the DoG in any way diminish or think lightly of the sovereignty of God. That is simply false. The non-cals simply view the expression of God and His sovereignty differently than do you. Please.

Brother (and I mean it!)... How can there be the same emphasis on God's sovereignty when one side of the debate features human will as the dictating agent for God's actions?

I'm not diminishing the faith of those who hold this doctrine, but I am indeed suggesting that there is an aspect of rebellion involved. so far, I've not seen convincing arguments otherwise. Why else craft a doctrine that invokes human will as THE thing that causes God to move?

I readily admit that we see things differently, but in seeing them differently, we also "divide" the Scriptures and in a sense, the Author of those Scriptures by setting one view against another. Difficulties -- yes, certainly -- but unresolvable difficulties? I don't think so. How hard is it to simply come down on the side of God's total and utter sovereignty?

Like Paul said:

Rom 3:4 (ESV) By no means! Let God be true though every one were a liar, as it is written, "That you may be justified in your words, and prevail when you are judged."

Paul, writing in the context of Romans 1-2, where he laid out the sin of humankind, and he continues with a scathing response to those who support a view that we humans have something to do with our coming to God -- directed first at Jews, who thought because of their elect status that they had a special dispensation from God and could ultimately do no wrong -- Paul in fact, makes this claim universal by his multiple statements before and after concerning the "all men" clause.

Rom 3:5-18 (ESV) But if our unrighteousness serves to show the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unrighteous to inflict wrath on us? ( I speak in a human way.) 6 By no means! For then how could God judge the world?

7 But if through my lie God's truth abounds to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner? 8 And why not do evil that good may come?--as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just. 9 What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin,
10 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; 11 no one understands; no one seeks for God. 12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one." 13 "Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive." "The venom of asps is under their lips." 14 "Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness." 15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16 in their paths are ruin and misery, 17 and the way of peace they have not known." 18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes."

 

[webdog]

Could very well be.

Revelation 7

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

HankD​

I believe that to mean it is a great number. 50 million is a great multitude...but not compared to 50 trillion.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Could very well be.

Revelation 7

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

HankD​

Thanks Hank for adding the Scripture to it.....that both clarifies & solidifies.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I believe that to mean it is a great number. 50 million is a great multitude...but not compared to 50 trillion.

Spoken like a true universalist. Everybody's gotta get saved.

 

[webdog]

Thanks Hank for adding the Scripture to it.....that both clarifies & solidifies.

How? I noticed you posted this after my reply which you do quite often in order to disagree in a passive aggressive round about way.

 

[webdog]

Spoken like a true universalist. Everybody's gotta get saved.

What did I say that even remotely sounds like universalism? Do you know what that is?

Just because there are a large number of people in Heaven does not refute the narrow path that "few" find and the broad path that "many" are on. My entire point was that just because there are a large number of people in Heaven it does not mean that the majority of people will be in Heaven. If anything by you agreeing with Krydneck you lean closer to universalism.

I'll take Scripture at face value. Few find salvation in the big picture, not most.

 

[Luke2427]

...glf, I agree with your theory that this is some of the reasons for their rejection of the truths of God's Sovereign Grace. Actually there are several reasons, IMO.

IMO, hoi polloi, the many, the most, the majority of His redeemed, washed in the blood, born from above children, believe that there are going to be very very few that 'make it' to heaven.

I am convinced that the majority of the lump of mankind, from Adam on, belong to the Lord. After all, God is stronger than the Devil, and He has been VICTORIOUS, NOT DEFEATED. It is Christ that died.

Yea, and if it is true, as I think it is, that all babies go to heaven, then it is a plain FACT that heaven will be far more populated than hell.

But this is ONLY possible if the DoG are true.

If Arminianism or this nameless theology that some espouse here on baptistboard is true, then salvation is ALWAYS synergistic and babies CANNOT participate- so they are all doomed.

Of course the way they get around this is to deny the teaching of the entirety of the Bible that ALL are sinners in need of a Savior.

 

[webdog]

Yea, and if it is true, as I think it is, that all babies go to heaven, then it is a plain FACT that heaven will be far more populated than hell.

Let God's Word be true...

13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

How? I noticed you posted this after my reply which you do quite often in order to disagree in a passive aggressive round about way.

So why then do you care how many are saved, 50 million, 50 billion, 50 trillion? Why not just leave it to God?

 

[Luke2427]

Let God's Word be true...

13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

Babies don't have to find it.

As usual you attack someone as being against the Word of God simply because you do not understand the Word of God.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I'm not diminishing the faith of those who hold this doctrine, but I am indeed suggesting that there is an aspect of rebellion involved. so far, I've not seen convincing arguments otherwise. Why else craft a doctrine that invokes human will as THE thing that causes God to move?

I wonder if they realize thats part of the Sin Nature of man that still wants to control things. Personally I dont know why that is. Isnt it better to let the Creator of the Universe do his own work without some little human creature interfering? But what do I know.:BangHead:

Oh Oh I know ....then we are puppets .....ever heard that ....puppets. He is pullin my strings. Who so better than the Creator of the Universe to pull your strings. Would we perfer the Devil to do it? LOL Funny stuff:godisgood:

 

[webdog]

I wonder if they realize thats part of the Sin Nature of man that still wants to control things. Personally I dont know why that is. Isnt it better to let the Creator of the Universe do his own work without some little human creature interfering? But what do I know.:BangHead:

Not sure based on what you posted here :laugh:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Not sure based on what you posted here :laugh:

OK ...another :tongue3:Funiculi Funicula moment...:thumbs:

 

[kyredneck]

Let God's Word be true...

13 “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

You have just inserted eternal consequences into the context. Show me how this implies eternity burning in hell or erternity in heaven.

[edit] This is a typical response. Question for 'hoi polloi': Do you WANT there to be only a few that 'make it' to heaven? Are you going to feel somehow vindicated if there are only a few and you're one of those few?

 

[webdog]

You have just inserted eternial consequences into the context where it is not even implied.

...you say that most likely due to the fact you are starting with the PB presupposition of two salvation's where it is not even implied.

Destruction = apart from God
Life = union with God

 

[kyredneck]

...you say that most likely due to the fact you are starting with the PB presupposition of two salvation's where it is not even implied.

Destruction = apart from God
Life = union with God

PBs are not the only ones that hold this position on this passage.

Christ as 'The Prophet' is speaking directly to the 'House of Israel'. This is a direct allusion to the Exodus generation (referenced many times in the NT) wherein estimates as high as 2.5 million Hebrew that left Egypt, only two of those, Joshua and Caleb (and families) 'made it' to the promised land of 'milk and honey'.


1 For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 and were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 and did all eat the same spiritual food;
4 and did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of a spiritual rock that followed them: and the rock was Christ.
5 Howbeit with most of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. 1 Cor 10

 

[webdog]

PBs are not the only ones that hold this position on this passage.

Christ as 'The Prophet' is speaking directly to the 'House of Israel'. This is a direct allusion to the Exodus generation (referenced many times in the NT) wherein estimates as high as 2.5 million Hebrew that left Egypt, only two of those, Joshua and Caleb (and families) 'made it' to the promised land of 'milk and honey'.


1 For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 and were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 and did all eat the same spiritual food;
4 and did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of a spiritual rock that followed them: and the rock was Christ.
5 Howbeit with most of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness. 1 Cor 10

I understand that PB's are not the only ones, many free gracer's buy into the Millenial Exclusion eschatology which has been banned here on the BB as a "damnable heresy" along with the adherents and proselytes to such doctrine.

 

[webdog]

[edit] This is a typical response. Question for 'hoi polloi': Do you WANT there to be only a few that 'make it' to heaven? Are you going to feel somehow vindicated if there are only a few and you're one of those few?

Who said I only wanted a few to make it to Heaven?!? What I want (and what God wants according to 2 Peter 3) and the reality of absolute truth are not the same. I don't want to die and my children to die, but the truth is it is going to happen. What I want is moot...God has said few will find the road to life, and life is only in Christ.

 

[kyredneck]

I understand that PB's are not the only ones, many free gracer's buy into the Millenial Exclusion eschatology which has been banned here on the BB as a "damnable heresy" along with the adherents and proselytes to such doctrine.

Your mouth runneth over. This is not the first time you've brought up the accusation of this heresy along with the implication that we should be banned from the BB. Now back up that mouth with facts, and plainly explain how 'PB's and many free gracer's' are 'Millenial Exclusionists', or shut up about it.

 

[webdog]

Your mouth runneth over. This is not the first time you've brought up the accusation of this heresy along with the implication that we should be banned from the BB. Now back up that mouth with facts, and plainly explain how 'PB's and many free gracer's' are 'Millenial Exclusionists', or shut up about it.

Don't try the tough guy bullying tactic on me, I'm not intimidated in the least. I only stated that ME's also hold to a "two salvation" eschatology. Scripture teaches no such thing, and the burden of proof is on you to show it does. The Administrators of this board also do not see it, and have deemed it as such...not I. I disagree with their assessment of the doctrine even though I believe it to be in error. Just saying "this passage is about eternal salvation, and this one is not" is not enough to prove anything.