Theoretical sinlessness

[DHK]

So I remain in rebellion since I insist that we do what the Apostle Paul urges us to do?:

"Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure" (1 Tim.5:22).

I would say that if anyone is in rebellion against God it is those who say that we cannot keep ourselves pure.

Keep thyself pure does not mean "Keep thyself sinless." It just does not have that meaning.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Keep thyself pure does not mean "Keep thyself sinless." It just does not have that meaning.

In a commentary written by the faculty of Dallas Theological Seminary at 1 Timothy 5:22 we read that "Timothy was to keep himself from sin. One cannot deal with sin in another if one's own life is not pure (hagnon)" (The Bible Knowledge Commetary: New Testament, 744).

How can you consider yourself 'pure" if you are defiled by sins?

 

[DHK]

In a commentary written by the faculty of Dallas Theological Seminary at 1 Timothy 5:22 we read that "Timothy was to keep himself from sin. One cannot deal with sin in another if one's own life is not pure (hagnon)" (The Bible Knowledge Commetary: New Testament, 744).

How can you consider yourself 'pure" if you are defiled by sins?

The context there is morally pure. In no way does it mean sinless..

 

[glfredrick]

So I remain in rebellion since I insist that we do what the Apostle Paul urges us to do?:

"Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure" (1 Tim.5:22).

I would say that if anyone is in rebellion against God it is those who say that we cannot keep ourselves pure.

No, because you are both the double-minded man that James takes to task and incorrectly dividing the word of truth...

You are out to win an argument that you cannot win with Scripture, so you ascribe meanings to Scripture out of context.

Those of us who admit that we are not pure are in agreement with the Scriptures and are WHOLLY RELYING on Jesus, not works, for salvation.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The context there is morally pure. In no way does it mean sinless..

You make statements which defy logic. Once a person sins then he has defiled himself and is no longer pure:

"But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man" (Mt.15:18-20).

The Greek word translated "defile" means "to make unclean" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

According to your ridiculous ideas a person can become unclean but yet remain pure!

You do not possess a lick of common sense in your entire being.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Those of us who admit that we are not pure are in agreement with the Scriptures and are WHOLLY RELYING on Jesus, not works, for salvation.

You are so far in left field that you do not even realize that the subject we have been discussing has nothing to do with salvation. The subject is one's reasonable "service":

"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service" (Ro.12:1).

 

[DHK]

You make statements which defy logic. Once a person sins then he has defiled himself and is no longer pure:

"But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man" (Mt.15:18-20).

The Greek word translated "defile" means "to make unclean" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

According to your ridiculous ideas a person can become unclean but yet remain pure!

You do not possess a lick of common sense in your entire being.

Why do you do this? You can't mix up two completely different situations or contexts to come up with one meaning of a word. This is not "rightly dividing the word of truth." Everything must be taken in its context. Context defines the word.

In the passage cited the Pharisees came to Jesus and complained to him, saying, Why don't your disciples wash their hands before eating (a ceremonial washing)? The thinking was that if they didn't wash their hands they would be defiled from the inside. Whatever they would eat would defile them.

Jesus rebukes them. He explains that food does not defile a person. He gives them a biology lesson. The body absorbs the good nutrients and the rest the body disposes. Thus the body is not defiled at all.

Then he tells them what kind of things do defile the body:
Adultery, fornication, murder, etc.
These all come from a depraved heart. They come from within. This is an argument for the depravity of man. If man did not have a depraved nature these things would not be formed in the heart. But even lying is formed in the heart of small children. For their hearts are depraved. That which defiles a man comes from within. You are right in one aspect. Men, including small children, are morally impure. Sin originates, according to Jesus, from within. Children sin naturally. They have a depraved nature. This is an excellent passage of Scripture. But it has nothing to do with Paul's advice to Timothy in a Pastoral Epistle.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Why do you do this? You can't mix up two completely different situations or contexts to come up with one meaning of a word. This is not "rightly dividing the word of truth." Everything must be taken in its context. Context defines the word.

I took nothing out of context because it is showing that when a person sins he becomes defiled.

No matter what you say to attempt to pervert that truth it remains true, especially since it comes from the lips of the Lord Jesus.

Then he tells them what kind of things do defile the body:
Adultery, fornication, murder, etc.

There are no verses safe from your ungodly habit of perverting the word of God. it is not the "body" which is defiled but instead the "man":

"But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man" (Mt.15:18-20).

Why must you continue to pervert the Scriptures?

If man did not have a depraved nature these things would not be formed in the heart.

If sinning depends on and is a result of a depraved nature then neither Adam nor Eve would have ever sinned because they were not created with a depraved nature.

You have been told this numerous times but you prove that you are incapable of being corrected. As a result you continue to repeat this nonsense.

This is an excellent passage of Scripture. But it has nothing to do with Paul's advice to Timothy in a Pastoral Epistle.

Paul told Timothy to keep himself "pure" and we too are to keep ourselves pure.

But you think we can sin and become defiled but at the same time remain pure.

Not only are you delusional but you prove once again that your spritual IQ is practically nonexistent!

 

[DHK]

1. You cannot differentiate between two different contexts; two different situations. In one Jesus was talking to unsaved, ungodly Pharisees. In the other Paul was addressing the Pastor of the church at Ephesus. Two entirely different situations.

2. In one Paul was simply telling Timothy to keep himself morally pure from the rest of the world, while Jesus was teaching the ungodly Pharisees the origin of sin.

3. Jesus actually taught about the depravity of man--that sin originates in the heart or mind of all mankind. And of course that would include small children as well. Paul was not teaching any such thing.

4. Jesus was condemning the actions of the Pharisees, as the Pharisees were condemning the actions of Jesus' disciples. This is a total different situation than the Godly advice Paul was giving to Timothy.

5. Jesus told the Pharisees that food does not defile a man; but sin does. And the sin comes or originates from the heart.

Once you see these differences you see that you can't put these verses together and agree that you are "rightly dividing the word of truth," because you are not.

 

[The Biblicist]

There are no verses safe from your ungodly habit of perverting the word of God. it is not the "body" which is defiled but instead the "man":

"But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man" (Mt.15:18-20).

Why must you continue to pervert the Scriptures?

Mt. 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

In verse 18 the defilement comes from INSIDE of man.

In verse 20 Jesus denies defilement comes from OUTSIDE of man.

Can you understand the difference between INSIDE veruss OUTSIDE in this context???????

Probably not, so I will break it down for you. The Pharisees believed that CEREMONIAL defilement or EXTERNAL things regarded as either "clean" or "unclean" are what LITERALLY defiled man.

Jesus denies that EXTERNAL things can LITERALLY defile a man even though such EXTERNAL things CEREMONIALLY defiled a man.

What LITERALLY defiles a man originates INSIDE of man and Jesus traces it to the HEART of man. The heart is not the MATERIAL heart but the IMMATERIAL NATURE of man.

Sin dwells in the IMMATERIAL part of man and SPEWS FORTH through the mouth and uses the body parts to MANIFEST itself.

However, there are some sins that never manifest themselves EXTERNALLY but are "EVIL" in God's sight..

1. "EVIL thoughts" - Mt. 15:19
2. Lustful "Look" - Mt. 5:28

28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Circumstances may prevent such "evil thoughts" from materializing or being given manifest expression but God looks upon the heart and the intent of the heart and condemns it as "evil" or "adultery" IN HIS HEART.

Hence, SIN comes from the HEART and is "IN HIS HEART."

People are born with an EVIL HEART but must be RE-BORN in order to have a GOOD heart. The heart that a child is born with manifests lies in many different forms from a very early age but a GOOD heart does not bring forth evil fruit:

Mt. 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.


The above text does not say a good man bringeth forth evil things nor does it say that an evil man bringeth forth good things. The good man from the ABUNDANCE OF THE HEART = THE GOOD TREASURE speaketh. The evil man from the ABUNDANCE OF THE HEART = THE EVIL TREASURE speaketh.

The "ABUNDANCE" is either the "GOOD" or "EVIL" treasure that is manifested through the mouth! Those he addressed this to he defined as "BEING EVIL."

They are defined as "EVIL" not due to EXTERNAL ceremonial defilements but due to an INTERNAL EVIL HEART with ABUNDANCE OF EVIL -EVIL TREASURE in the heart.

However, you will continue to pervert these scriptures because of the treasure of your heart.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

1. You cannot differentiate between two different contexts; two different situations. In one Jesus was talking to unsaved, ungodly Pharisees. In the other Paul was addressing the Pastor of the church at Ephesus. Two entirely different situations.

the principle remains the same no matter who are being talked about.

Sin defiles a man!

In one Paul was simply telling Timothy to keep himself morally pure from the rest of the world, while Jesus was teaching the ungodly Pharisees the origin of sin.

No one can keep himself morally pure while he is sinning.

Jesus actually taught about the depravity of man--that sin originates in the heart or mind of all mankind. And of course that would include small children as well. Paul was not teaching any such thing.

It is only those who know right from wrong who are guitly:

"Whoever knows what is right to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin" (Jas.4:17).

4. Jesus was condemning the actions of the Pharisees, as the Pharisees were condemning the actions of Jesus' disciples. This is a total different situation than the Godly advice Paul was giving to Timothy.

5. Jesus told the Pharisees that food does not defile a man; but sin does. And the sin comes or originates from the heart.

Once you see these differences you see that you can't put these verses together and agree that you are "rightly dividing the word of truth," because you are not.

Nothing that you said changes the fact that sin defiles a person no matter what.

 

[DHK]

the principle remains the same no matter who are being talked about.

Was Jesus teaching ungodly, unsaved Pharisees to live sinless lives?

Sin defiles a man!

So it does. Jesus said it originates in the heart. It is in the very thoughts of men. Put it to the test. Are you sinless?
You have already told me the answer; no need to answer it again.
But why proceed with a theology that you cannot keep?

No one can keep himself morally pure while he is sinning.

The Pharisees were wicked men that eventually crucified our Lord. Are you putting them in the same class as Paul and Timothy?

It is only those who know right from wrong who are guitly:

There are many on this board who have the testimony that they were saved at the age of four. They knew that they were sinners at that age.

"Whoever knows what is right to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin

" (Jas.4:17).
Nothing that you said changes the fact that sin defiles a person no matter what.

And what you have presented only strengthens the position that man is born with a sin nature; that he is a sinner from birth.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The Pharisees were wicked men that eventually crucified our Lord. Are you putting them in the same class as Paul and Timothy?

The Lord Jesus told his disciples the same thing which He told the Pharisees (Mk.7:14-23).

The truth of the matter is that what the lord Jesus said applies to all men, yourself included:

"And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man" (Mk.7:20-23).

The context there is morally pure. In no way does it mean sinless.

You make statements which defy logic. Once a person sins then he has defiled himself and is no longer pure. The Greek word translated "defile" means "to make unclean" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

According to your ridiculous ideas a person can become unclean but yet remain pure, proving once again that your spiritual IQ is practically nonexistent.

 

[DHK]

You make statements which defy logic. Once a person sins then he has defiled himself and is no longer pure. The Greek word translated "defile" means "to make unclean" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

According to your ridiculous ideas a person can become unclean but yet remain pure, proving once again that your spiritual IQ is practically nonexistent.

First, Jerry, if I were another moderator I would give you an infraction for the insulting and degrading language you use. There is no need for that.

You said.
"The Greek word translated "defile" means "to make unclean" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon)."
--I agree with that.
It doesn't say or mean sinless.

 

[glfredrick]

One last shot for Jerry...

When you (or anyone -- ever) can walk back through those cherubim with flaming sword who guard Paradise, whether before the deluge or after, whether actual or type that represents God's eternity, then you will find the perfect sinless man.

NNE HAS...

NNE CAN...

We are born separated from God by our sin nature, which causes us then to become "sinners" in that we act according to our nature.

Total Depravity = we are in a state of sin in all our members, body, soul, spirit, emotions, thoughts, body parts -- all of us individually and all of us corporately.

Total Inability = we cannot achieve anything that will prove acceptable to God so as to create a cause for our own salvation.

We NEED Christ. He is OUR ONLY WAY. We bring NOTHING to the table. He PAID IT ALL.

Anything else is not the gospel.

 

[The Biblicist]

The Lord Jesus told his disciples the same thing which He told the Pharisees (Mk.7:14-23).

Yes, because all men are sinners by nature, even his disciples are not without the sin nature. Thus sin has but one source in man - the sin nature. In the lost man the sin nature dwells in the heart while the saved man has been given a "new" heart and the sin nature dwells in the flesh, in my members, in the body! It is a SPIRITUAL IMMATERIAL law at work that is at war with God and seeks to destroy man.

In the lost man it dominates the whole man. In the saved man it can be robbed of its power over man by the indwelling Spirit but not of its presence in him. So as long as it is present in the saved man, there is no such thing as sinless perfection just battles that are won and lost but final victory always certain because it is Christ's victory with sin and principalities and powers that wins the war for us not our own personal skirmishes. Our skirmishes only determine presently the degree of salvation we now experience and rewards in heaven but His victory determines our entrance into heaven.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Yes, because all men are sinners by nature, even his disciples are not without the sin nature.

All you are capable of doing is parroting the garbage taught by the Calvinists. Neither Adam nor Eve were created with a sin nature but yet they sinned.

You cannot get past this simple truth no matter how many times you are reminded. It just goes in one ear and out the other, a common trait of those who are brainwashed.

Thus sin has but one source in man - the sin nature.

If you are right then neither Adam or Eve would have ever sinned.

But this is way above your understanding.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Total Inability = we cannot achieve anything that will prove acceptable to God so as to create a cause for our own salvation.

You have a total inability to even follow what is being discussed.

The subject is our "service" and not "salvation." Those like you with a very, very limited understanding of the things of God cannot tell the difference between the two.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

First, Jerry, if I were another moderator I would give you an infraction for the insulting and degrading language you use. There is no need for that.

Then please allow me to put it another way.

We both look at many things differently but for the life of me I cannot understand how you could possibly imagine that a person can become unclean but yet remain pure.

Did you not know what the words "unclean" and 'pure" mean? These words are mutually exclusive but to your limited understanding a person can be both at the same time.

I do not mean to be unkind but you are exhibiting symptoms of being in a delusional state and I would recommend that you consult a doctor.

You said.
"The Greek word translated "defile" means "to make unclean" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon)."
--I agree with that.
It doesn't say or mean sinless.

Once again I do not mean to be unkind but you show signs of being delusional. Are you under the impression that I or anyone else ever asserted that the word "defile" means "sinless."

I think that you have lost all touch with reality and really should contact someone who can help you with your delusions.

 

[Darrell C]

The subject is our "service" and not "salvation."

One question: what does "our service" result in?

God bless.