Theories of the Atonement

[SavedByGrace]

Please provide a passage that states *not what you believe is taught or implied) that God punished Jesus instead of punishing us.

No comments but JUST the passage you believe exists.

No "He was pleased to crush Him", "Christ died for our sins" (which was all believe anyway) but a verse stating that God punished Jedus instead of punishing us for our sins.

You can't because no such verse exists.

I do not mind people believing Penal Substitution Theory. I did for years. But to elevate the theory to the level of Scriprure is to add to Scripture.

The problem is you seem to be unable to tell where the biblical text ends and your understanding of the text begins.

I gave you 2 passages stating my view. So your turn.

Provide at least one stating that God punished Jeus instead of punishing us.

Isaiah 53:6, "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all"

The Lord here is no doubt God the Father. "Him" is Jesus Christ. The Hebrew here is, "הִפְגִּיעַ בּוֹ אֵת עֲוֹן כֻּלָּנוּ “, literally translated, "He caused to fall upon Him the iniquity of us all”. The Father has here "caused" OUR sins, to fall on the Righteous Jesus Christ, Who thereby became "a curse on our behalf" (Galatians 3:13). Or, as Paul says in 2 Cor. 5:21, "τον γαρ μη γνοντα αμαρτιαν υπερ ημων αμαρτιαν εποιησεν ινα ημεις γινωμεθα δικαιοσυνη θεου εν αυτω", where the order of the words in the Greek is very important. "For He hath made (ποιέω, to cause) Him to be sin for us, Who knew no sin. That we might be made the righteousness of God in Him". Like Isaiah 53:6, here it is God the Father, Who "made" Jesus, "to be sin", on our behalf.

 

[37818]

Isaiah 53:6, "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all"

The Lord here is no doubt God the Father. "Him" is Jesus Christ. The Hebrew here is, "הִפְגִּיעַ בּוֹ אֵת עֲוֹן כֻּלָּנוּ “, literally translated, "He caused to fall upon Him the iniquity of us all”. The Father has here "caused" OUR sins, to fall on the Righteous Jesus Christ, Who thereby became "a curse on our behalf" (Galatians 3:13). Or, as Paul says in 2 Cor. 5:21, "τον γαρ μη γνοντα αμαρτιαν υπερ ημων αμαρτιαν εποιησεν ινα ημεις γινωμεθα δικαιοσυνη θεου εν αυτω", where the order of the words in the Greek is very important. "For He hath made (ποιέω, to cause) Him to be sin for us, Who knew no sin. That we might be made the righteousness of God in Him". Like Isaiah 53:6, here it is God the Father, Who "made" Jesus, "to be sin", on our behalf.

Not so simple.
Jesus Christ in Hebrews 1:3, ". . . upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, . . ."

 

[SavedByGrace]

Please provide a passage that states *not what you believe is taught or implied) that God punished Jesus instead of punishing us.

No comments but JUST the passage you believe exists.

No "He was pleased to crush Him", "Christ died for our sins" (which was all believe anyway) but a verse stating that God punished Jedus instead of punishing us for our sins.

You can't because no such verse exists.

I do not mind people believing Penal Substitution Theory. I did for years. But to elevate the theory to the level of Scriprure is to add to Scripture.

The problem is you seem to be unable to tell where the biblical text ends and your understanding of the text begins.

I gave you 2 passages stating my view. So your turn.

Provide at least one stating that God punished Jeus instead of punishing us.

I add,

"Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken (נָגַע, to strike), smitten by God, and afflicted. But He was pierced for our transgressions; He was crushed (חָלַל, pierced, wounded) for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with His wounds we are healed."

What does "smitten BY God" mean? "נָכָה" has the meaning "to wound, to kill". This passage shows that Jesus was punished on our behalf. If it does not say this, then explain what do these words mean?

 

[SavedByGrace]

Not so simple.
Jesus Christ in Hebrews 1:3, ". . . upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, . . ."

so, what are you on about here?

 

[Aaron]

Please provide a passage that states *not what you believe is taught or implied) that God punished Jesus instead of punishing us.

Isaiah 53:5

 

[37818]

so, what are you on about here?

First, I did not say you were wrong. To answer your question:
That the LORD God in the OT is the Son of God on behalf of God His Father in all cases, John 1:2-3. Based on who appears for God, John 1:18.

 

[SavedByGrace]

That the LORD God in the OT is the Son of God

not so, every mention of "the Lord God" in the OT is not Jesus Christ. In Isaiah 53, for example, we read of "the Lord (YHWH) Who lays on Him, that is Jesus Christ, our sins. It is very clear that two distinct Persons are meant. Look at "and the Lord (1st Person) has laid on Him (2nd Person) the iniquity of us all", which is very clear in the Hebrew. There are many such instances. In Isaiah 48:16, the Speaker is YHWH, here Jesus Christ, however He says, "And now the Lord GOD (another Person, Who is YHWH) has sent Me (Jesus, the Speaker Who is YHWH), and His Spirit (yet another Person, Who is also YHWH in the OT).”. Here there are Three distinct Persons in this one verse, the Holy Trinity!

 

[37818]

not so, every mention of "the Lord God" in the OT is not Jesus Christ. In Isaiah 53, for example, we read of "the Lord (YHWH) Who lays on Him, that is Jesus Christ, our sins. It is very clear that two distinct Persons are meant. Look at "and the Lord (1st Person) has laid on Him (2nd Person) the iniquity of us all", which is very clear in the Hebrew. There are many such instances. In Isaiah 48:16, the Speaker is YHWH, here Jesus Christ, however He says, "And now the Lord GOD (another Person, Who is YHWH) has sent Me (Jesus, the Speaker Who is YHWH), and His Spirit (yet another Person, Who is also YHWH in the OT).”. Here there are Three distinct Persons in this one verse, the Holy Trinity!

Are you arguing that some of the Persons in the Trinity are not always the LORD God? Jesus did teach, John 13:16, ". . . The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him." (Did not say not equal.)

 

[SavedByGrace]

Are you arguing that some of the Persons in the Trinity are not always the LORD God? Jesus did teach, John 13:16, ". . . The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him."

I am saying that you don't understand the Godhead, as you have shown from your omission of the Holy Spirit in your "Trinity", in your own thread!

 

[JonC]

Isaiah 53:6, "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the Lord has laid on Him the iniquity of us all"

The Lord here is no doubt God the Father. "Him" is Jesus Christ. The Hebrew here is, "הִפְגִּיעַ בּוֹ אֵת עֲוֹן כֻּלָּנוּ “, literally translated, "He caused to fall upon Him the iniquity of us all”. The Father has here "caused" OUR sins, to fall on the Righteous Jesus Christ, Who thereby became "a curse on our behalf" (Galatians 3:13). Or, as Paul says in 2 Cor. 5:21, "τον γαρ μη γνοντα αμαρτιαν υπερ ημων αμαρτιαν εποιησεν ινα ημεις γινωμεθα δικαιοσυνη θεου εν αυτω", where the order of the words in the Greek is very important. "For He hath made (ποιέω, to cause) Him to be sin for us, Who knew no sin. That we might be made the righteousness of God in Him". Like Isaiah 53:6, here it is God the Father, Who "made" Jesus, "to be sin", on our behalf.

I think that I may not be explaining my concerns adequately, and that is on me.

I absolutely agree with the passages you have provided. God laid our iniquities on Him (I phrases it as He was made sin for us)


BUT that alone is not Penal Substitution Theory (otherwise you would not have objected to my post).

Your passages prove what ALL Christian views affirm, but not what makes Penal Substitution Theory unique.

When you read the biblical text why do you believe it is referring to God punishing Jesus instead of us for our sins?

 

[SavedByGrace]

I think that I may not be explaining my concerns adequately, and that is on me.

I absolutely agree with the passages you have provided. God laid our iniquities on Him (I phrases it as He was made sin for us)


BUT that alone is not Penal Substitution Theory (otherwise you would not have objected to my post).

Your passages prove what ALL Christian views affirm, but not what makes Penal Substitution Theory unique.

When you read the biblical text why do you believe it is referring to God punishing Jesus instead of us for our sins?

see #23

 

[37818]

I am saying that you don't understand the Godhead, as you have shown from your omission of the Holy Spirit in your "Trinity", in your own thread!

Here you go with personal attacks.
So where is the Holy Spirit in John 1:1? Where is He in Isaiah 53:1-12? That does not mean He plays no role. Jesus I trust you do know taught, in John 4:24, "God is a Spirit: . . ." Hebrews 9:14, ". . . the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, . . ."

 

[SavedByGrace]

Here you go with personal attacks.
So where is the Holy Spirit in John 1:1? Where is He in Isaiah 53:1-12? That does not mean He plays no role. Jesus I trust you do know taught, in John 4:24, "God is a Spirit: . . ." Hebrews 9:14, ". . . the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, . . ."

nothing to do with personal attacks. you started a thread, Disagreements on God. and I have asked there, that you mention "Trinity", and not a single word on the Holy Spirit? So how can you have a "Trinity" with Two? deal with this on your thread, not here

 

[37818]

nothing to do with personal attacks. you started a thread, Disagreements on God. and I have asked there, that you mention "Trinity", and not a single word on the Holy Spirit? So how can you have a "Trinity" with Two? deal with this on your thread, not here

You are doing personal attacks here. Making a false accusation, a Trinity is with "Two?" Do you think Trinitarians disagree on the Person of Holy Spirit? Not mentioning the Holy Spirit is not a denial of His personhood. There are non-Trinitarians who are not modalist or not Arian who believe there are only Two Persons in the Godhead. That is not the subject here in your thread nor mine.

 

[JonC]

Isaiah 53:5

I also believe that Christ was wounded for our transgressions. He was bruised for our iniquities:. And I believe the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

But that is not what I was asking. I apologize if I have not been clear.

I am asking if there is a verse that says God punished Jesus instead of punishing us with that wrath set aside for our sins.

Do you know if this is found anywhere in the Bible or is it just a theory based on passages like the one you posted?

 

[JonC]

see #23

I did read the passage. It says we did not esteem Jesus and we thought he was stricken by God but He was wounded for our sins and by His stripes we are healed.

"Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken (נָגַע, to strike), smitten by God, and afflicted"

The passage is indicating (by the two conjunctions) that the people were wrong to think Christ unworthy of respect and smitten by God.

But that is what they believed. Do you believe Jesus unworthy of respect and smitten by God?

 

[Aaron]

I also believe that Christ was wounded for our transgressions. He was bruised for our iniquities:. And I believe the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

But that is not what I was asking. I apologize if I have not been clear.

I am asking if there is a verse that says God punished Jesus instead of punishing us with that wrath set aside for our sins.

Do you know if this is found anywhere in the Bible or is it just a theory based on passages like the one you posted?

You're being purposefully obtuse.

What Does Isaiah 53:5 Mean? "But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed."

 

[SavedByGrace]

You're being purposefully obtuse.

What Does Isaiah 53:5 Mean? "But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed."

maybe not, I don't think that some like Jon can really grasp this Great Truth.

 

[JonC]

You're being purposefully obtuse.

What Does Isaiah 53:5 Mean? "But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed."

I am not being obtuse at all. I believe 53:5 means that the people believed Christ unworthy of honor and afflicted by God not recognizing the truth - His suffering and death was for their sins (He who knew no sin was made sin for us), He suffered for their iniquities, the chastening upon Him brought us peace, and by His wounds we are healed.

As far as I know this is a belief common to all Christians - even the majority of believers who have rejected Penal Substitution Theory.

But it is a huge leap from Isaiah 53 to Penal Substitution Theory.

In Acts Peter tells us it was these people who believed Christ unworthy of honor and afflicted by God who handed Him over to the wicked to be punished, but that this was in accord with God's predetermined plan (it pleased Him to crush Him).

My question was very specific. Is there a verse that has God punishing Jedus in our place with the wrath reserved for our sins?

How do you get from Scripture, which we all affirm, to Penal Substitution Theory?

 

[SavedByGrace]

I am not being obtuse at all. I believe 53:5 means that the people believed Christ unworthy of honor and afflicted by God not recognizing the truth - His suffering and death was for their sins (He who knew no sin was made sin for us), He suffered for their iniquities, the chastening upon Him brought is peace, and by His wounds we are healed.

As far as I know this is a belief common to all Christians - even the majority of believers who have rejected Penal Substitution Theory.

My question was very specific. Is there a verse that has God punishing Jedus in our place with the wrath reserved for our sins?

Looks like you actually believe the very thing that you are attacking