There are MANY things which disturb me about CCM

[DanielFive]

Ok Yod here goes....

There are MANY things which disturb me about CCM, for example...

1. Is CCM an industry or a ministry?

- If it is an industry, what makes it different to the secular rock music industry? - The secular system revolves around sex, drugs, violence, money, greed, idolatry and selfish ambition. Is it realistic to think that Christian musicians will not be affected by economic union with this immoral empire? In fact hasn't that question already been answered?

Can Christian musicians play in the mud and not get dirty?

- If CCM is a ministry - Since when does God need His work to be funded by non-christians?

2. What distinguishes the production, promotion and distribution of a CCM album from the production, promotion and distribution of say a Marilyn Manson album?

As I see it there is no difference, in both cases the recording labels package and promote the bands in the way that will generate the highest sales. Teen idols are created, and loyalty to these 'little gods' is encouraged as a way to boost sales.

How Christian is a music industry that preaches the faith but aligns itself with an entity that rewards exactly the opposite behaviours? (Eg. Flagrant self-promotion, selfish ambition and the worship of false gods.)

3. Is it right that the worship and praise of God has been turned into a profit-driven business.
Add to that the fact that many of those who profit from it are non-christians.

Christianity is just another niche market to be exploited - the CCM industry today is a place where people chase after the same thing that the world covets - fame and fortune.

4. If Christians are going to produce music which glorifies God there should be no profit motive driving it's production. Wouldn't you agree?

For example, Martin Luther rewrote many old hymns - he didn't leave the church and start up an industry to do it - he kept the music within the church where it belongs. (NB I'm talking about Sacred music here of course)

5. CCM is all about taking the Gospel and turning it into entertainment. The very thought of this repulses me, that professing Christians would find the death of my Lord and Saviour entertaining.

NOTE - This list is by no means exhaustive but if you would deal with these points perhaps we can move on.

 

[Mike McK]

Originally posted by yod:
It's a niche label I'm on...we do messianic worship. (boy am I asking for it now!)

We used to have a Messianic band here called (and I'm spelling this phonetically because I don't know how to spell it) Kohl-Sim-Kah. They came to my old church a couple of times and were pretty cool.

The point is that there are still SOME labels out there who are looking for ministry minded musicians.

I'm sure there are some. Homespun comes to mind.

Even if there are no labels willing to go out on a limb, it's a shame that there is no entrepreneurship or even a church willing to support them like Calvary Chapel did so long ago.

This is another reason why they are signing them young. It might take 5 years to see a return on their investment and another 5 years to see a profit.

I don't know about that. It's so rare now that an act that doesn't hit withing five years is around much longer.

 

[yod]

quote:
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This is another reason why they are signing them young. It might take 5 years to see a return on their investment and another 5 years to see a profit.
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I don't know about that. It's so rare now that an act that doesn't hit withing five years is around much longer.

5 years?


2 years tops if they are lucky!

 

[yod]

1. Is CCM an industry or a ministry?

- If it is an industry, what makes it different to the secular rock music industry?

The audience. People stopped buying Michael English records when he got caught in adultery. This is cause for celebration in rock music.

Is it realistic to think that Christian musicians will not be affected by economic union with this immoral empire? In fact hasn't that question already been answered?

Can Christian musicians play in the mud and not get dirty?

Can anyone?

This brings up a more pertinent question in my mind.....Can a christian ever be a lawyer?

Because CCM artists are in the limelight they do have the responsibility of maintaining the highest integrity but can we expect them to be super humans? I don't know the answer to that one btw..

- If CCM is a ministry - Since when does God need His work to be funded by non-christians?

I see all work as ministry.

Not sure what you mean by "funded by non-christians". The recent buyout by secular conglomerates does mean that the financing of the Big 3 is done by non-christians...but the "funding" is by christians who buy the records.

2. What distinguishes the production, promotion and distribution of a CCM album from the production, promotion and distribution of say a Marilyn Manson album?

Again, it's the audience. There is quite a discriminating bunch of folks running the bookstores who don't HAVE to take what the distributors are pushing this month, too.

As I see it there is no difference, in both cases the recording labels package and promote the bands in the way that will generate the highest sales. Teen idols are created, and loyalty to these 'little gods' is encouraged as a way to boost sales.

And I admit you are right. Even when the band is sincere about their faith and purpose, the competition to sell records seems to force an artificial hype....a sort of idolotry is the result of that kind of marketing. It is made worse when youngsters who aren't mature start believing the hype. Ah...who am I kidding? It can happen to anyone regardless of age.

How Christian is a music industry that preaches the faith but aligns itself with an entity that rewards exactly the opposite behaviours?

What entity? Sorry...you lost me there. Are you talking about the entertainment industry? If so, I agree that it's walking a fine line but it can be done.

3. Is it right that the worship and praise of God has been turned into a profit-driven business.
Add to that the fact that many of those who profit from it are non-christians.

Christianity is just another niche market to be exploited - the CCM industry today is a place where people chase after the same thing that the world covets - fame and fortune.

Yes we all fight darkness in high places.

Honestly though....many people see the modern western church the exact same way. Does that make all churches worldly or evil?

4. If Christians are going to produce music which glorifies God there should be no profit motive driving it's production. Wouldn't you agree?

For example, Martin Luther rewrote many old hymns - he didn't leave the church and start up an industry to do it - he kept the music within the church where it belongs. (NB I'm talking about Sacred music here of course)

Here it gets a little touchy because there is no way a person can be a good steward if they aren't making money somehow.

Martin Luther isn't a good example because he lived off the tithes of his congregation as the priest.

I answered this on another thread but I'll sum it up here. There is no money in it until you have been successful for a long time. This might even make it a WORSE problem!

For some it means broken marriages because they are obligated by contract to do 200+ shows a year and they aren't paying the bills.

I have the unusual luxury of not having that pressure from my label. The owner has told me that if my family suffers for my career, I'm gone. I welcome that approach.

And again...not every aspect of the industry is monolithic. Every situation is different, every contract is different, every strategy for success is different.

5. CCM is all about taking the Gospel and turning it into entertainment. The very thought of this repulses me, that professing Christians would find the death of my Lord and Saviour entertaining.

I sincerely appreciate that sentiment. As I mentioned before, I used to think of it the same way.

But that isn't the goal of CCM. It's a business selling a product because there are people who want it.

I am bored by most of what Gnashvile puts out. On the other hand, my wife would rather hear songs that promote the right values than political talk radio so she has the CCM stations on.

We have about 8 stations in Dallas and I listen to CCM music for about 5 minutes in a month. I do like many of the teachers on a couple of those stations and will listen to that for quite a few hours in a month. Strangely enough...most of them are baptists.

Thanks for the opportunity to talk with you about this stuff. I'm anxiously awaiting your "exhaustive" analysis.

 

[yod]

Here is a pretty good article by Steve Taylor, a youth pastor turned musician turned record label owner (Squint) turned youth pastor again..


Are you a minister or an entertainer?

 

[DanielFive]

Because CCM artists are in the limelight they do have the responsibility of maintaining the highest integrity but can we expect them to be super humans? I don't know the answer to that one btw..

Yod,

I appreciate your answers and can see that you have given considerable thought to the problems facing Christians who work within the Music Industry.

Imagine this scenario, a young Christian who feels he is gifted musically comes to you for advice, he wants to become involved in the entertainment industry. What do you say, where would you start with a queation like that, what things would you ask him to consider, what Scriptures would you use to weigh up the situation?

I'm assuming that you went through this process yourself, there must have been times when you asked yourself if you should get a "real job" (Incidentally I'm an artist so don't take that personally)

How did you arrive at the conclusion that this was the career for you? At the bottom of everything what drives you as an artist, eg. to glorify God, personal fame, fortune, seeing souls converted etc etc.

I am genuinely interested in your answers and please don't think that I am judging you or that I'm saying you need to justify your decisions to me, thats not the case.

 

[yod]

I like you a lot, brother Enda. The church could use more men like you.

Imagine this scenario, a young Christian who feels he is gifted musically comes to you for advice, he wants to become involved in the entertainment industry. What do you say, where would you start with a queation like that, what things would you ask him to consider, what Scriptures would you use to weigh up the situation?

Only one verse fits this scenario;

"Humble yourself in the sight of the Lord and He will lift you up"

My advice would be to find ways to serve others. I would recommend going outside of a church music team if they have any real talent. Convalescent homes, prisons, children's hospitals, street corners...there are soooo many places that could use a little light. Be faithful in the small things and the Lord WILL give you greater things to do. We have to accept that what He calls "greater" might not be what we think of as great.

I'm assuming that you went through this process yourself, there must have been times when you asked yourself if you should get a "real job" (Incidentally I'm an artist so don't take that personally)

I still have a day job! As I mentioned earlier, my particular label considers the sin of Nashville to be broken families. They insist that I not take off from home for long. So, I kept my little locksmithing business and I fly out on the weekends. I'll be in St Louis this weekend, Kansas City next, Atlanta after that, Virginia...so forth and so on.

But I come home to my wife & kids during the week and always leave one weekend a month unbooked to go to church with my family and stay connected to the local body. I got that advice from one of the top Marketing Directors in the CCM industry, Vince Wilcox. He directs the careers of people like Third Day, Jars of Clay, etc...

How did you arrive at the conclusion that this was the career for you? At the bottom of everything what drives you as an artist, eg. to glorify God, personal fame, fortune, seeing souls converted etc etc.

That's a long funny story.

I have laid down music COMPLETELY three times since being born again in 1990. I seriously thought I would never play outside of my living room all three times.

This last time it was because I was seeing no fruit at all in a christian rock band.

I booked us into an outdoor new-age gay festival on the streets of Houston and my bass player almost fainted the day we were supposed to go. He had been raised in the church and was petrified at the thought of leaving the comfort zone. That's understandable but I owe a much larger debt than he does evidently.

When we had to cancel it crushed me because I had been praying and fasting for 2 months over this gig. I simply said to the Lord, "I quit. If you want me to play then you will have to make it clear" and figured that was it.

So now I'm trying to figure out what I REALLY want to do with my life now that the music career is over.

I thought of the most impossible thing to ask so I would know that it was Him doing it....and I asked Him to use me to tell the jews of Israel how much He loved them. Then I laughed as I thought about Moses saying, "Lord I don't even speak the language. Why would they listen to me?"


I started writing songs for an album called "Letter to the Hebrews" which was what I would say if I could stand on Mount Zion and preach to the nation.

Miraculous things began to happen. Within a week a man called to say that he and his wife were praying about giving (the same large amount it would take to produce an album) to a ministry because they wanted to bless Israel and got my name. Weird, huh?

I didn't trust my own heart so I asked them if I could pray about it. I got off the phone and said, "Lord, if this is from you then you will also have to provide a trip to release this album in Jerusalem". I asked this as I thought of Jesus telling the disciples that " you will be My witnesses in Jerusalem, then Judea & Samaria, and the uttermost parts of the earth ". Surely that was the end of this nonsense, right?

2 days later an old friend called me from Israel. He had moved there 8 years ago and was now doing tours for christians. He offered me a free trip if I would do the music for a group going on PENTECOST 2001.

Whoa...

More amazing doors kept flying open to make this CD happen in 5 months (half of it in hebrew!) and I found myself in "The Underground" a dance club in Jerusalem on the evening of Pentecost watching athiest kids sing Zechariah 9 and other scriptures while the DJ spun the record. It was the exact vision I had when I made the initial prayer! The DJ kept saying things like, "this is God and it's dance...this has never been done!" A car bomb blew up the next club I was walking to after leaving this place.

I was almost killed by terrorists 3 times in 6 days as I brought this to 77 DJs in every dance club in Israel from Haifa to Elat. You might recall the Dophinarium blowing up in Tel Aviv on June 3rd 2001 killing 27 and wounding almost a hundred more? I was scheduled to be there but was detained and got there late.

When the trip was over, I quit music again.

Almost a year later I got a call from a record label who had heard about me from someone in Israel. We negotiated but it didn't go well. I told him that my calling is to bless Israel..not sell records...so I had to have complete freedom to manage myself as I saw fit and made 9 impossible demands...the first being that he tear this contract up and start over.

To my utter surprise he did everything I asked and we released that SAME album (with some songs produced differently) in Washington DC as the official music of the "Solidarity with Israel Campaign" of the Christian Coalition. It was supposed to be in front of the White House but the sniper caused it to be moved to the Convention Center at the last minute.

This was also the first time that the label ever saw me perform. That is unheard of! He changed the name of the album to "Zealous Over Zion" but it's the same record that was released in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost.

I stood before the leaders of Israel and Congressional leaders of the United States. I saw the mayor of Jerusalem weeping as I sang Zechariah 9 to him and to all of Israel by way of satelite. I saw Tom DeLay, Alan Keyes and other distinguished men standing at attention. There were about 15,000 people there yet I wasn't intimidated in the least. I KNEW that God had done it.

It has been an exciting ride of faith since the day that I surrendered my will to WHATEVER He wanted to do with me.

I half expected He would want me to clean toilets or something...boy am I glad He had something else in mind!

I'm not nearly through...I wish I could tell you about the events being planned in Jerusalem in the next few years. You'll hear soon enough.

I am living proof that God can still speak through a donkey who does CCM!

 

[yod]

By the way, my story is not all that unique. I have a lot of friends from Texas who are signed these days....and all of them have a story of being called into a "national" ministry.

We all fail sometimes at keeping Him the focus....but I know that He is the ultimate reason and passion for what they do.

Would you like to hear some more stories?

 

[DanielFive]

Thanks for that story Yod, you definitely lead an interesting life.

My advice would be to find ways to serve others. I would recommend going outside of a church music team if they have any real talent.

Thats a very interesting comment. I would agree that where God has given particular gifts in the arts these need to be developed and put in God's service.

I would say that the question of whether a talent/gift (I believe that some Christians are given artistic gifts : Eg. Exodus 31)) is real or percieved is of utmost importance.

The thing that strikes me most about the Christians who are involved in the music industry is that in the vast majority of cases there seems to be an absence of any significant gift. This crosses over into the visual arts as well.

I think it is reasonable to ask that anyone who claims to be gifted in any way should initially use that gift within his local congregation. I'm not saying that that is as far as the individual can go but I also think that it is important that the gift should be identified by the elders in the local church, who would also be able to look at the individuals walk with God, and can use this to discern whether he is being used of God.

Once it becomes apparent that he has a genuine gift then I think that gift should be nurtured and developed with the aid of the local congregation. If that person feels called to bring that gift to a wider audience I think he should only do so with the blessing of his local church. Surely if all Christians followed these guidelines it would stop this endless stream of rubbish coming from Christians who somehow manage to convince themselves that God desires to use them in the field of music/art.

I think sometimes all that is needed is for an elder of the church to take these people aside, put an arm round their shoulder and say, "You know what, that worship song you wrote is rubbish". Well perhaps they could be a bit more tactful but you know what I mean. I think older and wiser Christians should be the ones to discern whether someone is being used by the Lord.

It's just to easy for young Christians, who possibly have nothing to commend them spiritually or artisically (I would imagine some of them have no other gift then being able to play three or four chords on a guitar) to enter into a field of 'ministry'.

Is it right that we should allow record company bosses to decide who represents Christians in the music industry. Are they looking for Godliness and spirituality in those who bring them demo tapes??

I think if there is to be such a thing as a Christian Music industry then it is imperitive that that industry is ran from top to bottom by Christians.

Secondly, the product of that industry (ie, Christian music) should set the standards for all other music. Christians must shape the values and thus the music of others. For many centuries the best art/music was the work produced to glorify God. Nowadays things are the other way around. Christians allow themselves to be influenced by the culture of the world, this is evident in CCM, Christians are happy to copy the music of the world and apparently don't see a need to provide a contrasting alternative.

Christians must have higher standards that the unsaved around us, it is all too evident that musically our standards are no higher than that of the world. Christians seem content to use rock/rap/dance music as a vehicle for the Gospel.
Of course, people will argue from now to kingdom come about the use of rock music etc. and my position is clear on that. To me it is not a case of can God use it, it is a case of whether we should ask God to use it, whether we admit it or not it is something that satan has made his own.

This post probably doesn't have much flow to it, sorry about that Yod, I'm thinking as I'm typing.

I don't know if you have read any of Francis Shaeffer's work but as an artist I find some of his work interesting.

Here are the four basic standards that Francis Schaeffer believes every Christian should apply when judging a piece of music or art. Whether you agree or disagree with these criteria at first-glance, take some time to ponder them prayerfully.

1. Technical Excellence - It is entirely possible that a lousy lyrical message can be communicated through a piece of music or by a voice that exhibits technical excellence. "By recognizing technical excellence," writes Schaeffer, "we are often able to say that while we do not agree with such and such an artist's world view, he is nonetheless a great artist." Conversely, a positive message could be contained in a poor piece of art.

(Sidenote here: I always wonder why we don't see great musians and great lyricists working together, I feel that there must be some good writers out there who are not musically talented, and likewise there may be gifted musicians who can't write worthy lyrics, what do you think?)

2. Validity - Is the artist true to himself and his world view? Or does he make his art only for money or for the sake of being accepted? Good art honestly reflects the soul of the artist.

3. Content - The content reflects the world view of the artist and should always be judged by the Christian under the ultimate authority of God's Word.

4. The appropriateness of the vehicle to the message - In art works that are truly great, there is always a correlation between the style and the content.

I'd appreciate your thoughts on some of this.

God Bless

Enda

 

[yod]

shalom Bro Enda...did you miss me?

I got home to find that my computer wasn't working so I'm reduced to an old laptop with a 28.8 modem. Ugghh!

I will thus limit my posting until my good computer is fixed...hopefully by the time I get back home next week.

I agree with almost every word of your very thoughtful post. I'd like to expand on some of your thoughts here...

I think if there is to be such a thing as a Christian Music industry then it is imperitive that that industry is ran from top to bottom by Christians.

I agree that this would be preferable but not absolutely necessary. Daniel worked for a pagan master yet the Word of God was proclaimed...just as in the cases of Joseph, Nehemiah, etc...

The secular masters of the christian industry realize that they need christians working under them because they don't understand the market. However, they are more excellent in the ways of the world and can get christian music into Walmart and other major chains which used to not be the case...

So it's not much different than having a secular entity like the Post Office delivering bibles.

Secondly, the product of that industry (ie, Christian music) should set the standards for all other music. Christians must shape the values and thus the music of others. For many centuries the best art/music was the work produced to glorify God. Nowadays things are the other way around. Christians allow themselves to be influenced by the culture of the world, this is evident in CCM, Christians are happy to copy the music of the world and apparently don't see a need to provide a contrasting alternative.

While I agree with the gist of that and agree that you are correct overall, I would like to offer another perspective. There are some christian groups out there who are better than the secular groups but because they are SOOO different, they are not accepted by the church.

POD is a good example. They have a style that no one else has. You may not like the style but as a musician I have enormous respect for Sonny's ability to "flow" and that drummer is incredible.

They have melded influences from rock, hip-hop, and reggae to make a style all their own. They ARE leading.

Christians must have higher standards that the unsaved around us, it is all too evident that musically our standards are no higher than that of the world.

It used to be that way, yes, but that has a lot to do with the fact that christian consumers weren't accepting anything outside of the artificially decided "norm"

Christians seem content to use rock/rap/dance music as a vehicle for the Gospel.

I'll learn to sing backwards in Swahili while doing cartwheels in a kilt to Opera if I'm trying to communicate to someone who will understand that.

"to the jew I became as a jew that I might save some...."

whether we admit it or not it is something that satan has made his own.

I am not willing to concede anything to that old liar...


May the Lord bless you and keep you, bro...I'll check back in later.

Peace!

 

[DanielFive]

Welcome back Yod! I was wondering what had happened to you. Hope you get the computer sorted out again soon.

Thanks for your post, I have one or two comments but they'll keep until you get back on line.

God Bless

Enda