There is more faith in Las Vegas

[rockytopva]

Las Vegas - Encouragement to gamble
Church - Encouragement to unbelief

Discourage anyone going to Las Vegas about losing it all and they will go anyway
Discourage anyone going to church over the possibilities of miracles and they will believe you!

I have read in doctrinal statements.... "As the canon of Scripture has been completed, the Church does not look for the continued exercise of these sign gifts." If I am sick I am going to want someone praying for me in faith! Even if the prayers seemly are not answered taking the time to believe with me would be appreciated!

 

[jardows]

There is a distinction between a belief in the cessation of the sign gifts, and the belief in the cessation of miracles. Spending my entire life in churches that teach (and myself believing) in the cessation of the sign gifts, I only became aware a few years ago that there was a significant portion of churches that teach the cessation of miracles. So I still pray to God for a miracle, in expectation that He will perform a miracle, but submissive to His will if He does not. That is far different than believing that I or another person has the ability to actually perform said miracles on God's behalf.

 

[Psalty]

Las Vegas - Encouragement to gamble
Church - Encouragement to unbelief

Discourage anyone going to Las Vegas about losing it all and they will go anyway
Discourage anyone going to church over the possibilities of miracles and they will believe you!

I have read in doctrinal statements.... "As the canon of Scripture has been completed, the Church does not look for the continued exercise of these sign gifts." If I am sick I am going to want someone praying for me in faith! Even if the prayers seemly are not answered taking the time to believe with me would be appreciated!

Its the old enlightenment and evolutionary mindset. Its a “We are beyond that now” mindset. But lots of gifts manifest here still and in other parts of the world where they are used to bring glory to God through Jesus.

God can give gifts when He desires. Its up to Him on when and how much.

Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy.
— 1 Corinthians 14:1

 

[rockytopva]

13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.
14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. - James 5

Being brought up Baptist I believe salvation is something acquired by faith in the Lord Jesus alone. Sanctification comes by continuing in the Worship and the Word, and any spiritual gifts that follow are of the Grace of God. Continuing in the Worship and the Word is done by attending a good church.

In my twenties I was a member of the Pentecostal Holiness denomination. Our order of service...

1. Greeting and opening prayer
2. Choir with a camp meeting piano sound
3. Offer to come up to the altar to pray for the sick
4. Final song, offering, and sermon
5. Invitation to the altar for salvation or prayer

The old timers would sit back and weep. If they caught me looking at them with wonder they would say... The Holy Ghost! The Holy Ghost! And point to all the souls being blessed around the altar. The people would also testify that the, "Lord has healed my body time and time again." It was like attending the early church and I was greatly blessed by the experiences. They would also meet many times in fellowship...

1. Sunday School - Many teachers with degrees from Liberty University
2. 11AM and 6PM Church
3. Wednesday night family night
4. Saturday night prayer service
5. Revivals - My pastor was an ex-evangelist. He really know how to find good evangelists for revival

So... Why am I not here promoting Pentecostal Holiness?

1. Only one service a week
2. No more offers for prayer
3. Nobody sees about one another
4. No more revivals - Many have went charismatic
5. Pastors - Some of them look scary with their sloppy dress and long beards

Almost like an old testament story where the heart is far from the worship. But... I miss the old days.

 

[JonC]

13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.
14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. - James 5

Being brought up Baptist I believe salvation is something acquired by faith in the Lord Jesus alone. Sanctification comes by continuing in the Worship and the Word, and any spiritual gifts that follow are of the Grace of God. Continuing in the Worship and the Word is done by attending a good church.

In my twenties I was a member of the Pentecostal Holiness denomination. Our order of service...

1. Greeting and opening prayer
2. Choir with a camp meeting piano sound
3. Offer to come up to the altar to pray for the sick
4. Final song, offering, and sermon
5. Invitation to the altar for salvation or prayer

The old timers would sit back and weep. If they caught me looking at them with wonder they would say... The Holy Ghost! The Holy Ghost! And point to all the souls being blessed around the altar. The people would also testify that the, "Lord has healed my body time and time again." It was like attending the early church and I was greatly blessed by the experiences. They would also meet many times in fellowship...

1. Sunday School - Many teachers with degrees from Liberty University
2. 11AM and 6PM Church
3. Wednesday night family night
4. Saturday night prayer service
5. Revivals - My pastor was an ex-evangelist. He really know how to find good evangelists for revival

So... Why am I not here promoting Pentecostal Holiness?

1. Only one service a week
2. No more offers for prayer
3. Nobody sees about one another
4. No more revivals - Many have went charismatic
5. Pastors - Some of them look scary with their sloppy dress and long beards

Almost like an old testament story where the heart is far from the worship. But... I miss the old days.

I have a degree from Liberty Theological Seminary (and Liberty University, for that matter).

My profs in theology did not hold that those gifts ceased. In fact, the dean (and co-founder of Liberty) insisted that he witnessed these gifts while on mission trips. He attributed a lack of seeing them as often today in the US to several things -

1. A lack of need (in that theses gifts would not be the sign in our culture that they are in others)

2. A normalization of the demonic (attributing demonic forces to medical causes)

3. A lack of faith.


Just clarifying because your comment about Liberty seems misplaced. It is true that Liberty was more biblical than many seminaries (less indoctrination into a specific theology). But I do not see this as a negative.

 

[rockytopva]

I have a degree from Liberty Theological Seminary (and Liberty University, for that matter).

My profs in theology did not hold that those gifts ceased. In fact, the dean (and co-founder of Liberty) insisted that he witnessed these gifts while on mission trips. He attributed a lack of seeing them as often today in the US to several things -

1. A lack of need (in that theses gifts would not be the sign in our culture that they are in others)

2. A normalization of the demonic (attributing demonic forces to medical causes)

3. A lack of faith.


Just clarifying because your comment about Liberty seems misplaced. It is true that Liberty was more biblical than many seminaries (less indoctrination into a specific theology). But I do not see this as a negative.

If someone would point out 95% of the Pentecostal Holiness bad I would have no arguments. Such badness begins with walking out of the Spirit and into the flesh.

Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry - Colossians 3:5

I have seen a niece through Liberty University. It was fun to go to visit things like the Virginia Christmas Spectacular. As far as Pentecostal Holiness I have no more example churches to point to. I would point out that this kind of church begins first with a love of God, and then a love for people. Covetous in itself is idolatry and it would be hard for God to move in such a heart. God is a jealous God and I believe he takes the wise and the covetous in their own craftiness. The people of the Pentecostal Holiness church I attended were a good people. They were very poor yet came to church looking very rich. With the poverty came humility. And while that goodness was there the church prospered.

 

[Psalty]

13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms.
14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him. - James 5

Being brought up Baptist I believe salvation is something acquired by faith in the Lord Jesus alone. Sanctification comes by continuing in the Worship and the Word, and any spiritual gifts that follow are of the Grace of God. Continuing in the Worship and the Word is done by attending a good church.

In my twenties I was a member of the Pentecostal Holiness denomination. Our order of service...

1. Greeting and opening prayer
2. Choir with a camp meeting piano sound
3. Offer to come up to the altar to pray for the sick
4. Final song, offering, and sermon
5. Invitation to the altar for salvation or prayer

The old timers would sit back and weep. If they caught me looking at them with wonder they would say... The Holy Ghost! The Holy Ghost! And point to all the souls being blessed around the altar. The people would also testify that the, "Lord has healed my body time and time again." It was like attending the early church and I was greatly blessed by the experiences. They would also meet many times in fellowship...

1. Sunday School - Many teachers with degrees from Liberty University
2. 11AM and 6PM Church
3. Wednesday night family night
4. Saturday night prayer service
5. Revivals - My pastor was an ex-evangelist. He really know how to find good evangelists for revival

So... Why am I not here promoting Pentecostal Holiness?

1. Only one service a week
2. No more offers for prayer
3. Nobody sees about one another
4. No more revivals - Many have went charismatic
5. Pastors - Some of them look scary with their sloppy dress and long beards

Almost like an old testament story where the heart is far from the worship. But... I miss the old days.

I hear what you and John C are saying. And I agree. I dont think you can have the gifts operating well without a heart for holiness and the lost.

 

[rockytopva]

And the old Pentecostal Holiness church from my actual church. As a young person I would lay in bed after such service wondering what was holding my body on planet earth. I felt like flying away!

1. 00:00 - 02:30 Joy Unspeakable
2. 02:30 - 05:00 Soon and Very Soon
3. 05:00 - 12:00 I'll Fly Away - Instrumental
5. 12:00 - 13:00 Testimony of a man healed of cancer
6. 13:00 - 48:00 Sermon on Psalms 23
7. 48:00 - 59:30 Altar service - Everyone comes up for prayer

 

[rockytopva]

And remembering the opening congregational song...

1 I have found His grace is all complete, He supplieth every need; while I sit and learn at Jesus' feet, I am free, yes, free indeed.
2 I have found the pleasure I once craved, it is joy and peace within; what a wondrous blessing! I am saved from the awful gulf of sin.
3 I have found that hope so bright and clear, living in the realm of grace; The Savior's presence is so near, I can see His smiling face.
4 I have found the joy no tongue can tell, how its waves of glory roll! It is like a great o'er flowing well, springing up within my soul.
It is joy unspeakable and full of glory, Oh, the half has never yet been told.