Featured There is no condemnation to them in Christ Jesus !

You asked me this.

I then responded again and you stated this.

I then responded again and you said this.

I am trying to debate you but it appears to me you don't want an debate? Is this correct, sir?

 

So, let me ask you a question.


Were you born saved? Were God's sheep born saved?

 

In a debate, I make counterpoints to your argument. You then counter my points made and we debate them in a Godly manner.


You stated that God's elect were never under condemnation and used Ro. 8:1 for your support.


I then used Ez. 34 and Ephesians 2:2 as counterpoints to your OP. Now it's your turn to show me how/if I have misapplied those verses of scripture.

Where have I erred in using Ez. 34 and Ephesians 2:2?

 

In a debate, it is not my job to prove your points, but to show you where I think you are wrong. You then counter with why I am wrong.


But I shall leave it there.

I will leave it to the readers to decide.

 

I have thought about the love of God toward his elect many times and I am swept away with love for Him who could love a sinner like me. God does not change, if he loves me now then he has always loved me. Time means nothing to God whether in the present or past eternity God is still the same. In the mind of God, Christ was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, Rev 13:8. In the mind of God the elect were in Christ before they were ever conceived, Psa 89:3-4 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant. Thy seed will I establish for ever and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah. Also Psa 89:28-36. This is our vital union with the Three in One. There are many scriptures that prove we were in Christ at his death, burial and resurrection and we are setting together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus. Eph 2:5-6.

 

We tried to warn you, bud. SBM has his own little world and the only way we're allowed in is if we repeat his points and argue what he wrote the same way he argued it. He doesn't want debate. He just wants to write his own theological books on this board.

 

Brother SovereignGrace,

The doctrine of Eternal Vital Union does not teach the elect were never lost. In Adam, even the elect were children of wrath even as others. They were corrupted in sin, sank down in depravity and death and ruin, in the first Adam; from which they are redeemed, washed, cleansed and made pure by the blood and righteousness of the second Adam (Christ). But their life in Christ Jesus, which is hid with him in God before the world began, was never corrupted, for the scriptures affirm that it is incorruptible.

Now as to if the elect existed in seed form before the world began in Christ, Paul makes this abundantly clear by stating "...according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began (2 Timothy 1:9b)

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

Brother SavedByMercy,

Yes, I agree with you, the elect in Christ's seed were never subject to eternal condemnation as scripture teaches that this seed is and always has been incorruptible. "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible," (1 Peter 1:23A)

 

Hi Brother Savedbymercy,

The word "condemnation" in Romans 5:18 is the Greek word "katakrima" and according to Strong's Concordance the definition means "penalty" http://biblehub.com/greek/2631.htm

The penalty that came to the elect as a result of Adam's fall is death of their flesh bodies and is mentioned earlier in the chapter. "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" (Romans 5:12).

Adam's fall also made all humans born into this world to be born as sinners. "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners" (Romans 5:19a). The penalty for sin is eternal condemnation, for the elect this was placed upon Christ at the atonement, thus they will not suffer this condemnation like the nonelect will after death. "For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Corinthians 5:21). Further, Romans 8:1 that you have already cited assures us, "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." The condemnation mentioned in this particular verse, unlike the condemnation in Romans 5:18, must mean eternal damnation as we know all the elect do suffer the condemnation of a physical death as a result of Adam's fall, but never suffer the condemnation of eternal damnation, nor were they at any time under this sentence as they have always been "in Christ". "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God" (1 John 3:9)

As Peter said, this seed is "not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible" (1 Peter 1:23). If this seed were subject to eternal condemnation at any time, it could not have been said by Peter it is an "incorruptible seed".


God bless,

Brother Joe

 

Brother SavedbyMercy,

Yes, I agree they are the same Greek words for condemnation in both chapters, but the condemnation in Romans 5:18 is defined earlier by Paul as physical death earlier in the same chapter in Romans 5:12. "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" (Romans 5:12), thus the condemnation in Romans 8:1 that will not come upon those who are "in Christ Jesus" must mean eternal damnation as we know even the elect suffers the condemnation of a physical death as a result of Adam's fall. If the condemnation in Romans 5:18 meant eternal damnation as you claim, then you must conclude that at one time even the elect were subject to eternal damnation because the verse says, "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation" (Romans 5:18). Do you believe that at one time those "in Christ" were subject to eternal damnation? That is not possible.

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

Yes Brother, Christ paid the penalty of eternal damnation that the elect deserved because they were sinners by nature. Also, because he is the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world and took this penalty, the penalty never was or shall be imposed upon the elect. I think we can agree on this.

Brother Joe