Featured There is no condemnation to them in Christ Jesus !

Through Christ "all things work together for good" for His children (Romans 8:28), thus "all things" includes even death, even though scripture tells us "the wages of sin is death" and "the sting of death is sin".

"54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ." (1 Corinthians 15:54-57)

Brother Joe

 

Brother,

Because at no point in time were the elect ever subject to eternal condemnation because they were always "in Christ" even before the foundation of the world and He took the penalty of eternal condemnation for them, but if one interprets Romans 5:18 to mean eternal condemnation it says, " judgment came upon all men to condemnation", then one would be forced to conclude that at the time of the fall those who were "in Christ" were then afterward subject to eternal condemnation for a time (at least up until the time of their regeneration or the atonement), but this is not the case as Christ took this condemnation and the elect were ever "in Christ" in Eternal Vital Union.

 

Brother Savedbymercy,

The elect would have incurred the condemnation in time if Christ did not take the condemnation, but He did take it, thus it was not incurred in time by the elect. The debt was paid by Christ, therefore it is not paid by the Elect.

 

Oh really?

So those that Christ died for were never condemned at all, as any point of condemnation would place them outside Christ, per your theology. To that end, the lost must be born lost and the saved must be born saved.

Per your theology, the lost will not and cannot hear the gospel because they are lost and God is hiding the gospel from them (a misinterpretation of scripture, but that's on you). Therefore, if the lost will never hear the gospel because they are lost, then the only way in which those of us that have heard the gospel heard it in the first place is because we were already saved.

 

Brother Tony,

Paul said he was saved before the world began (II Tim 1:9), when Jesus came into the world (I Tim 1:15), when the Spirit regenerated him (Titus 3:5), when he took heed to himself and the doctrine (I Tim 4:16), and would be saved sometime in the future (Rom 13:11).

Paul clearly mentions five different stages or phases of salvation.

Since God saves sinners in stages, or phases, we must not limit salvation to just one idea or one event at one time. Paul saw his own salvation occurring in five phases. It used to be called the Ordo Salutis of salvation, which means the order of salvation; but it is not studied or preached much any more.
The five phases are-


The ETERNAL PHASE is God's plan and choice from eternity to to save His elect from sin. This occurred before the world began. "9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began," (2 Timothy 1:9) Jesus is said to be the lamb slain before the foundation of the world.


The LEGAL PHASE is God's work to satisfy His holy nature and perfect justice for the salvation of His elect. Because every sin must be punished, He sent a Substitute to die for their sins. His perfect holiness and justice cannot overlook sins and acquit wicked men. He must punish their sins in Another, even Jesus Christ. And this He did at the crucifixion of Jesus Christ 2000 years ago. "15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief." (1 Timothy 1:15)

The VITAL PHASE is God's application of these benefits to us personally and individually. We are born depraved and with a wicked nature at enmity with Him. So He regenerates us into a new life by His Spirit and gives us a new heart that loves Him and righteousness (though we still have the wicked flesh until we die). This is being born again, and it is done entirely by the power of God sometime during our lives. "5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost" (Titus 3:5)

The PRACTICAL PHASE is our response to His salvation here in time in our life experience. With new hearts from regeneration, we seek the truth and love it when we hear it. We hear the gospel, and we believe it. We want to be baptized to show Him our love. "16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee." (1 Timothy 4:16)

The FINAL PHASE is that great day in the future when we shall be declared the sons of God to the whole universe and enter heaven for eternity. Our bodies will be raised from graves and glorified into new spiritual bodies, and we will be thoroughly purged from all sin to be perfectly holy in His presence forever. This great conclusion to the plan of salvation is yet in the future. "11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed." (Romans 13:11)

It is not SavedByMercy's theology that states one without the Holy Spirit who hasn't been born again cannot believe the gospel, it is Jesus's and the Bible's theology.
"26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:' (John 10:26-27)

"Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word" (John 8:43)

"11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. " (1 Corinthians 2:11-12, 14)

"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God" (1 Corinthians 1:18)
Notice in the preceding verse the ones who already "are saved" are the ones who receive the preaching as the "power of God". To those that are unsaved (perishing) ithe preaching is said to be received as "foolishness".

Brother Tony, the reason you come to the faulty conclusion that someone who does not have the Spirit of God in them can repent and believe the gospel is because you do not believe the doctrine of total depravity. The Bible is clear, ""Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." (Romans 8:7)

Also, if as you believe, one in the flesh without the Spirit can repent and believe the gospel, how do you reconcile this with what Paul said, "So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God". Wouldn't it be pleasing to God if they that are "in the flesh" could repent and believe the gospel without first having the Spirit in them?

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

Preacher Tony and Brother Saved By Mercy,

I noticed you are both from the Atlanta area, perhaps you can get together and hash out your differences to avoid running rabbit trails! (Just joking)

 

I am not in agreement here, but I do see what you're attempting to convey.

 

That's why I continually asked you for clarification because I couldn't understood what you were trying to convey.

You posted verses but backed them with little exegesis. That's why I asked you for some clarification.

 

It's not my job to review your posts. It is your job to post in a manner that is coherent in nature.

If I post something that somebody is not clear what I am conveying, it is my job, not yours or anybody else, to try to repost it in a fashion that is clearer in understanding.

Brother Joseph and you debating cleared up what it was I was not clear in understanding. I will just say I disagree and let you two debate.

 

I am not trying to evade them. No, not in the least. I am debating with what data you post, but that data is scattered in nature. If I don't properly debate what you posted, it's because I am debating what I think you're conveying. You really need to be more cogent.


One question. Why all the (!!!)? It appears you're screaming at me.

 

I address you in accordance to your data. If I don't answer in the manner of which you desire, the blame is on you my friend. You need to be more cogent in your postings is all I'm saying.