Lodic
Well-Known Member
That seems to be a bit of a stretch. Jesus is warning about adding to or taking away from the prophecy of the Book, not about the Millennium.
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There is no Millennium according to Jesus
- Thread starter 1689Dave
- Start date
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Don't you see, that just because John mentions 1000 years, and the Pharisees preach a 1000 year physical kingdom, they are not the same thing? Especially after Jesus disproved their ideas of a Millennium (see OP). Scripture never mentions a millennium. And to insert Pharisee Millennialism into John's passage is adding to scripture.
you keep saying that but have offered no break down of why you personally believe it’s true. Further if you really want a conversation with others on this you will be interested in their view whether you agree with it or not. If you just want to bash people over the head with your personal interpretation you will keep calling them Pharisees. Doing so doesn’t prove you right.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
I believe it is true becuse it is the gospel of the kingdom Jesus preached in the gospels. I listed many of the kingdom verses in the OP. None of them tolerate Premillennialism, a Pharisee doctrine, or Dispensationalism, the worst form of Premillennialism. Check it out studiously.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
The Millennium is a Pharisee Doctrine.
First, MILLENNIUM: MILLENNIUM - JewishEncyclopedia.com
By: Joseph Jacobs, A. Biram
Table of Contents
Messianic Period an Interregnum.
The reign of peace, lasting one thousand years, which will precede the Last Judgment and the future life. The concept has assumed especial importance in the Christian Church, where it is termed also “chiliasm,” designating the dominion of Jesus with the glorified and risen saints over the world for a thousand years. Chiliasm or the idea of the millennium is, nevertheless, older than the Christian Church; for the belief in a period of one thousand years at the end of time as a preliminary to the resurrection of the dead was held in Parseeism. This concept is expressed in Jewish literature in Enoch, xiii., xci. 12-17; in the apocalypse of the ten weeks, in Apoc. Baruch, xl. 3 (“And his dominion shall last forever, until the world doomed to destruction shall perish”); and in II Esdras vii. 28-29. Neither here nor in later Jewish literature is the duration of this Messianic reign fixed. It is clear, however, that the rule of the Messiah was considered as an interregnum, from the fact that in many passages, such as Pes. 68a, Ber. 34b, Sanh. 91b and 99a, Shab. 63a, 113b, and 141b, a distinction is made between and , although it must be noted that some regarded the Messianic rule as the period of the fulfilment of the prophecies, while others saw in it the time of the subjugation of the nations.
So it is no wonder Millennialism found its way into the first century Church comprised mainly of former Jews.
But in time, the church condemned it as heresy. First, According to the Nicene Creed
………………. and He shall come again, with glory, to judge both the living and the dead; Whose kingdom shall have no end.
Sproul, R. C. (Ed.). (2015). The Reformation Study Bible: English Standard Version (2015 Edition) (p. 2389). Orlando, FL: Reformation Trust.
And condemned as heresy by the Council of Ephesus in 431 in two ways.
“In addition to its condemnation of Nestorianism, the council also condemned
Pelagianism, [2] and rejected premillennialism (Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Papias,
Tertullian, Origen, Lactantius) in favor of Amillennialism (Clement of
Alexandria, Chrysostom, Jerome and Augustine of Hippo): "Augustine's
explanation became Church doctrine when it was adopted as the definitive
explanation of the millennium by the Council of Ephesus in 431."[35]
Secondly, “Canon 7 condemned any departure from the creed established by the First Council of Nicaea (325)” This affirmed Jesus “shall come again, with glory, to judge both the living and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.” Thereby denouncing premillennialism and the doctrines leading up to and including Dispensationalism of the 1800s.
Retrieved from Council of Ephesus - Wikipedia
calling people Pharisees does not make your case. That is the entire foundation of your argument here thus far. Sophomoric at best.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
If they believe Pharisee doctrine, how can they believe the gospel of the kingdom as preached by Jesus and Peter at Pentecost?
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
The Millennium is a Pharisee Doctrine.
First, MILLENNIUM: MILLENNIUM - JewishEncyclopedia.com
By: Joseph Jacobs, A. Biram
Table of Contents
Messianic Period an Interregnum.
The reign of peace, lasting one thousand years, which will precede the Last Judgment and the future life. The concept has assumed especial importance in the Christian Church, where it is termed also “chiliasm,” designating the dominion of Jesus with the glorified and risen saints over the world for a thousand years. Chiliasm or the idea of the millennium is, nevertheless, older than the Christian Church; for the belief in a period of one thousand years at the end of time as a preliminary to the resurrection of the dead was held in Parseeism. This concept is expressed in Jewish literature in Enoch, xiii., xci. 12-17; in the apocalypse of the ten weeks, in Apoc. Baruch, xl. 3 (“And his dominion shall last forever, until the world doomed to destruction shall perish”); and in II Esdras vii. 28-29. Neither here nor in later Jewish literature is the duration of this Messianic reign fixed. It is clear, however, that the rule of the Messiah was considered as an interregnum, from the fact that in many passages, such as Pes. 68a, Ber. 34b, Sanh. 91b and 99a, Shab. 63a, 113b, and 141b, a distinction is made between and , although it must be noted that some regarded the Messianic rule as the period of the fulfilment of the prophecies, while others saw in it the time of the subjugation of the nations.
So it is no wonder Millennialism found its way into the first century Church comprised mainly of former Jews.
But in time, the church condemned it as heresy. First, According to the Nicene Creed
………………. and He shall come again, with glory, to judge both the living and the dead; Whose kingdom shall have no end.
Sproul, R. C. (Ed.). (2015). The Reformation Study Bible: English Standard Version (2015 Edition) (p. 2389). Orlando, FL: Reformation Trust.
And condemned as heresy by the Council of Ephesus in 431 in two ways.
“In addition to its condemnation of Nestorianism, the council also condemned
Pelagianism, [2] and rejected premillennialism (Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Papias,
Tertullian, Origen, Lactantius) in favor of Amillennialism (Clement of
Alexandria, Chrysostom, Jerome and Augustine of Hippo): "Augustine's
explanation became Church doctrine when it was adopted as the definitive
explanation of the millennium by the Council of Ephesus in 431."[35]
Secondly, “Canon 7 condemned any departure from the creed established by the First Council of Nicaea (325)” This affirmed Jesus “shall come again, with glory, to judge both the living and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.” Thereby denouncing premillennialism and the doctrines leading up to and including Dispensationalism of the 1800s.
Retrieved from Council of Ephesus - Wikipedia
First, MILLENNIUM: MILLENNIUM - JewishEncyclopedia.com
By: Joseph Jacobs, A. Biram
Table of Contents
Messianic Period an Interregnum.
The reign of peace, lasting one thousand years, which will precede the Last Judgment and the future life. The concept has assumed especial importance in the Christian Church, where it is termed also “chiliasm,” designating the dominion of Jesus with the glorified and risen saints over the world for a thousand years. Chiliasm or the idea of the millennium is, nevertheless, older than the Christian Church; for the belief in a period of one thousand years at the end of time as a preliminary to the resurrection of the dead was held in Parseeism. This concept is expressed in Jewish literature in Enoch, xiii., xci. 12-17; in the apocalypse of the ten weeks, in Apoc. Baruch, xl. 3 (“And his dominion shall last forever, until the world doomed to destruction shall perish”); and in II Esdras vii. 28-29. Neither here nor in later Jewish literature is the duration of this Messianic reign fixed. It is clear, however, that the rule of the Messiah was considered as an interregnum, from the fact that in many passages, such as Pes. 68a, Ber. 34b, Sanh. 91b and 99a, Shab. 63a, 113b, and 141b, a distinction is made between and , although it must be noted that some regarded the Messianic rule as the period of the fulfilment of the prophecies, while others saw in it the time of the subjugation of the nations.
So it is no wonder Millennialism found its way into the first century Church comprised mainly of former Jews.
But in time, the church condemned it as heresy. First, According to the Nicene Creed
………………. and He shall come again, with glory, to judge both the living and the dead; Whose kingdom shall have no end.
Sproul, R. C. (Ed.). (2015). The Reformation Study Bible: English Standard Version (2015 Edition) (p. 2389). Orlando, FL: Reformation Trust.
And condemned as heresy by the Council of Ephesus in 431 in two ways.
“In addition to its condemnation of Nestorianism, the council also condemned
Pelagianism, [2] and rejected premillennialism (Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Papias,
Tertullian, Origen, Lactantius) in favor of Amillennialism (Clement of
Alexandria, Chrysostom, Jerome and Augustine of Hippo): "Augustine's
explanation became Church doctrine when it was adopted as the definitive
explanation of the millennium by the Council of Ephesus in 431."[35]
Secondly, “Canon 7 condemned any departure from the creed established by the First Council of Nicaea (325)” This affirmed Jesus “shall come again, with glory, to judge both the living and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.” Thereby denouncing premillennialism and the doctrines leading up to and including Dispensationalism of the 1800s.
Retrieved from Council of Ephesus - Wikipedia
37818
Well-Known Member
It is in that book the Millennium is explicitly taught. Revelation 22:18-19, ". . . unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book . . . ."
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
You are imposing the God blinded Pharisee's millennium over John's 1000 years. Scripture never mentions a millennium = there isn't one. Replacing John with false doctrine is dangerous. Heed the warnings. 1000 in scripture often = a large amount, quite a bit. Samson killed 1000 Philistenes, God owns the cattle on 1000 hills.
timtofly
Well-Known Member
What historical proof do you have that the Pharisees claimed a 1000 year reign of Christ, that generation would enjoy?
So far only John claims a 1000 year reign of Christ in Revelation 20.
Mirror, mirror, on the wall----!!!!
t's all symbolic of the wrath to the uttermost poured out on that generation of Jews that killed Christ.
Seven seals, seven trumpets, seven angels, seven bowls, read the curses of Lev 26/Dt 28 (and others) from the OT; the wrath poured out upon 'the land', the judgment of the great Harlot.
18 And if ye will not yet for these things hearken unto me, then I will chastise you seven times more for your sins.
21 And if ye walk contrary unto me, and will not hearken unto me, I will bring seven times more plagues upon you according to your sins.
24 then will I also walk contrary unto you; and I will smite you, even I, seven times for your sins.
28 then I will walk contrary unto you in wrath; and I also will chastise you seven times for your sins. Lev 26
Spot on.
Messianic Age of the OT prophets requires the King to be on earth to set up his kingdom!
That time periods refers to the Messianic Age, not established here yet!
It wasn't just the Pharisees, old man:
25 But first must he suffer many things and be rejected of this generation. Lu 17
25 And all the people answered and said, His blood be on us, and on our children. Mt 27
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Were you taught this? Or did objective self-study lead to it? I studied Bancroft. Strong and sat in different pre-millennial/Dispensational Churches but could never swallow it, thankfully. It wasn't until I questioned all I had been taught and set out to disprove it that I found the truth in Jesus' gospel of the kingdom. You wouldn't believe the enemies I gathered, even my own family for the most part.
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Can you describe each view ? Do you know what they are without looking them up? Let's be honest and study before blurting our emotions.
timtofly
Well-Known Member
The chapter identifies who the serpent and dragon is. There is no guess work. Is the word angel symbolic of anything other than an angel? You claim the chain is symbolic. That is a private guess. We are not told the chain is literal or symbolic, yet it is the means of being bound. Satan is bound either way, no?
Some hold to soul sleep symbolism, but sleep does not define a soul. A physical body defines the usefulness of the soul. A first resurrection defines a physical resurrection. Jesus was physically resurrected after physically dying on a physical cross. Unless you are going to state the death burial and resurrection are just symbolism, how can you not understand the physical resurrection in Revelation 20:4-5. Is there a separate half a resurrection prior to the first resurrection that is not physical, but only symbolic? Does a second resurrection after a first resurrection make a body more physical than a first resurrection? There was a physical bodily resurrection that starts out a 1000 year period of time, that John witnessed just after the battle of Armageddon. It was not symbolic of the church. It was a literal resurrection of those just beheaded in the literal 42 month period that ended at Armageddon. The 42 months given to Satan and the FP in Revelation 13 does have a literal physical ending. It is called Armageddon. A literal physical battle where Jesus Christ as Prince brings to an end the desolation of abominations that began in Revelation 13.
We know the time frame because of this verse:
"And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months."
This is not some "short season" where Satan is loosed. This is not even part of some 7 year tribulation. This is a 3.5 year extension where Satan is in control of the vineyard. Those harvested by having their head chopped off, are physically resurrected to live with Christ on earth for 1000 years.
The little season is at the end of the 1000 years, not the 42 months leading up to the 1000 years.
If you place this little season on earth, is that being literal? If this little season is not on earth, how can it effect the apostasy of the church on earth? Do you have consistency in your own interpretation? The church has nothing to do with Revelation 20:7-9. Not even symbolically. Yet we see that Revelation 20 has to take place on earth and physically. That is not even debatable. Unless you want to give up your own interpretations concerning Satan's little season.