"There is safety in believing the words of the KJV Bible." A powerful quote by our Board member, JD731.

[Charlie24]

Everyone who is born again is born into the Kingdom of God, under the rule of King Jesus.


Everything Jesus talks about in Matthew 24:4-35 has to do with the Destruction of the Temple and the economy of the Jewish worship, as confirmed by Josephus.

Where?

I've never seen anywhere in the Bible where Jesus will Rule on Earth. U?

You put me to work on that one. I knew I had read it somewhere but took a while to find it.

Don't do Ol' Charlie like this, it's to much work.

Rev. 2:25-27

"But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father."

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

The throne of David is not a heavenly throne.

God Promises king David,
"Your house and your kingdom
shall endure before you Forever.
Your throne will be established Forever" (2 Samuel 7:16).

Peter, centuries later, preached about this Promise.

He claims that David understood the Promise
to refer to the Christ Who, after His Death and Resurrection,
would Sit on the Throne and Rule from Heaven (Acts 2:22-36).

"And immediately I was in the Spirit: and, behold,
a Throne was set in Heaven, and One Sat on the Throne."
Revelation 4:2.

When Revelation 21 New Jerusalem comes down, where does it go down to? From heaven, adjusted a few feet down?

The New Jerusalem comes down
from the New Heaven to the New Earth.

The New Heaven and New Earth have been Created
and replaced our Earth we are on, today,
when "the first Heaven and Earth had passed away".

Revelation 21:1; "Then I saw a New Heaven and a New Earth, for the first Heaven and Earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.

2; "I saw the Holy City, the New Jerusalem, coming down out of Heaven from God, Prepared as a Bride adorned for her husband.

If there is a new heaven and a new earth and the dwelling of God is with men, then it is more than reasonable to assume (though not necessary to assume) that Jerusalem, the seat of the throne of David, will be placed on the earth.

That would be the New Earth, after "a thousand years",
of Jesus Rule from Heaven, with "the souls of them
that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus,
and for the word of God", as we see in Revelation 20:4;

"And I saw Thrones (in Heaven),
and they sat upon them (in Heaven),
and Judgment was given unto them:
and I saw the souls of them (in Heaven)
that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus,
and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived (in Heaven)
and Reigned (in Heaven) with Christ a thousand years (in Heaven)."

I’m not a preterist .

I'm Amillennialistically inclined, myself.

I’ve got some good news for you, we are not in the final stage of eternity. It gets better than this.

True. I believe the next event to happen will be
The Second Coming of Christ in Judgment,
to separate the sheep from the goats,
and that will be the End of Time and the End of this World,
which will be replaced by the New Heaven and the New Earth.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

Don't do Ol' Charlie like this, it's to much work.

O.K., I'll try that.

As in each of these letters,
Jesus ends this letter with a final word of exhortation:
“To him who overcomes and does My Will to the end, I will give Authority over the nations–`He will rule them with an iron scepter; he will dash them to pieces like pottery’– just as I have received Authority from my Father.”

To those who persevere in the faith, they are now promised that Christ himself will share with them His Messianic Authority. Just as Jesus Rules over the nations, so too, all those who are His Will Reign with Him.

"And He shall Rule them with a rod of iron",.... with the Gospel, which is the Rod of Christ's Strength, and is the Power of God unto Salvation, and by which the Kingdom of Christ is enlarged, and the power of the churches of Christ over the antichristian party is increased."

From: https://www.samstorms.org/all-articles/post/27--was-jesus-an-amillennialist--revelation-2:26-29-/;

"Those who “overcome” or “conquer” are the very people who are persecuted, thrown in prison, and even subjected to martyrdom (see Rev. 2:3,9-11,13). The promise to them is that if they keep Christ’s “works until the end” they will be given Authority to rule over nations even as Christ has been given Authority from his Father to rule (see Psalm 2).

"Who or what are these “nations” and when is it that Christians will exercise their Rule over them?

"Some (perhaps most) believe this is a promise to be fulfilled on the millennial earth, that 1,000 year period of human history that Premillennialists believe will follow the Second Coming of Christ and precede the Inauguration of the Eternal State.

"Bear with me as I make an alternative suggestion. Could it be that the reward noted here is the authority granted to the saints when they enter into Co-Regency with Christ in Heaven, now?

"A similar Promise is made to the faithful in Laodicea:
“The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with Me on My Throne [namely, the place of Rule, Government, and Authority], as I also Conquered and Sat Down with My Father on His Throne” (Rev. 3:21).

"My point is that this Co-Regency with Christ is fulfilled now, in Heaven, that is to say, in the so-called “Intermediate State” where the dead in Christ live in conscious, intimate fellowship with the Savior. This Co-Regency, as I have called it, is therefore the same as the coming to life and “Reigning” with Christ described in Revelation 20:4* and 20:6*. The “millennium” or thousand-year rule is currently in session, as Christ, together with the “overcomers” or “conquerors”, rules with authority over the nations of the earth.

"To put it simply and to the point: The “conquerors” / “overcomers” are not merely those over whom Christ will Rule but those with whom Christ now Rules."

If the Lord Blesses one to see "a thousand years" in the light of Bible Revelation from the Old Testament, where God is said to be Faithful "unto a thousand generations."

Since, a thousand literal generations is going to be a thousand multiplied by the number of years in a generation, which we will use 40 years for what a generation may be, then that would be 40,000 years that the Bible says that God will be Faithful TO SUCCESSIVE GENERATIONS. That is going to put Jesus' Return WAAAAY ON OUT THERE, FATHER THAN ANYONE HAS EVER DREAMED.

So, if we view those thousand generations as expressing a very great number of generations, that seems like they are never-ending, then we will be able to see in Bible language where "a thousand years" can be expressing a very great number of years, that seems forever, as if they are never-ending, BUT THE POINT IS THAT THIS PERIOD OF TIME IS FINITE.

Just as those thousand generations seem like they'll never end, they do end, and although the number of years in Jesus' Present Reign from Heaven seem like it's been Forever since He ASCENDED TO HIS THRONE, THIS PERIOD OF TIME WE ARE PRESENTLY IN, WILL EVENTUALLY COME TO AN END, AT HIS RETURN.

That is how God
would have us to understand the "thousand years" = BIBLICALLY.

*As seen in Revelation 20:4
"And I saw Thrones, and they sat upon them, and Judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

& **Revelation 20:6; "Blessed and Holy is he that hath part in the First Resurrection: on such the Second Death hath no power, but they shall be Priests of God and of Christ, and shall Reign with him a thousand years."

 

[Ben1445]

God Promises king David,
"Your house and your kingdom
shall endure before you Forever.
Your throne will be established Forever" (2 Samuel 7:16).

Peter, centuries later, preached about this Promise.

He claims that David understood the Promise
to refer to the Christ Who, after His Death and Resurrection,
would Sit on the Throne and Rule from Heaven (Acts 2:22-36).

"And immediately I was in the Spirit: and, behold,
a Throne was set in Heaven, and One Sat on the Throne."
Revelation 4:2.


The New Jerusalem comes down
from the New Heaven to the New Earth.

The New Heaven and New Earth have been Created
and replaced our Earth we are on, today,
when "the first Heaven and Earth had passed away".

Revelation 21:1; "Then I saw a New Heaven and a New Earth, for the first Heaven and Earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.

2; "I saw the Holy City, the New Jerusalem, coming down out of Heaven from God, Prepared as a Bride adorned for her husband.


That would be the New Earth, after "a thousand years",
of Jesus Rule from Heaven, with "the souls of them
that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus,
and for the word of God", as we see in Revelation 20:4;

"And I saw Thrones (in Heaven),
and they sat upon them (in Heaven),
and Judgment was given unto them:
and I saw the souls of them (in Heaven)
that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus,
and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived (in Heaven)
and Reigned (in Heaven) with Christ a thousand years (in Heaven)."


I'm Amillennialistically inclined, myself.


True. I believe the next event to happen will be
The Second Coming of Christ in Judgment,
to separate the sheep from the goats,
and that will be the End of Time and the End of this World,
which will be replaced by the New Heaven and the New Earth.

I can respect your position. I disagree. But I understand where you are coming from now. I don’t have time enough right now to keep discussing it, but I will catch up with you later.

 

[Charlie24]

O.K., I'll try that.

As in each of these letters,
Jesus ends this letter with a final word of exhortation:
“To him who overcomes and does My Will to the end, I will give Authority over the nations–`He will rule them with an iron scepter; he will dash them to pieces like pottery’– just as I have received Authority from my Father.”

To those who persevere in the faith, they are now promised that Christ himself will share with them His Messianic Authority. Just as Jesus Rules over the nations, so too, all those who are His Will Reign with Him.

"And He shall Rule them with a rod of iron",.... with the Gospel, which is the Rod of Christ's Strength, and is the Power of God unto Salvation, and by which the Kingdom of Christ is enlarged, and the power of the churches of Christ over the antichristian party is increased."

From: https://www.samstorms.org/all-articles/post/27--was-jesus-an-amillennialist--revelation-2:26-29-/;

"Those who “overcome” or “conquer” are the very people who are persecuted, thrown in prison, and even subjected to martyrdom (see Rev. 2:3,9-11,13). The promise to them is that if they keep Christ’s “works until the end” they will be given Authority to rule over nations even as Christ has been given Authority from his Father to rule (see Psalm 2).

"Who or what are these “nations” and when is it that Christians will exercise their Rule over them?

"Some (perhaps most) believe this is a promise to be fulfilled on the millennial earth, that 1,000 year period of human history that Premillennialists believe will follow the Second Coming of Christ and precede the Inauguration of the Eternal State.

"Bear with me as I make an alternative suggestion. Could it be that the reward noted here is the authority granted to the saints when they enter into Co-Regency with Christ in Heaven, now?

"A similar Promise is made to the faithful in Laodicea:
“The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with Me on My Throne [namely, the place of Rule, Government, and Authority], as I also Conquered and Sat Down with My Father on His Throne” (Rev. 3:21).

"My point is that this Co-Regency with Christ is fulfilled now, in Heaven, that is to say, in the so-called “Intermediate State” where the dead in Christ live in conscious, intimate fellowship with the Savior. This Co-Regency, as I have called it, is therefore the same as the coming to life and “Reigning” with Christ described in Revelation 20:4* and 20:6*. The “millennium” or thousand-year rule is currently in session, as Christ, together with the “overcomers” or “conquerors”, rules with authority over the nations of the earth.

"To put it simply and to the point: The “conquerors” / “overcomers” are not merely those over whom Christ will Rule but those with whom Christ now Rules."

If the Lord Blesses one to see "a thousand years" in the light of Bible Revelation from the Old Testament, where God is said to be Faithful "unto a thousand generations."

Since, a thousand literal generations is going to be a thousand multiplied by the number of years in a generation, which we will use 40 years for what a generation may be, then that would be 40,000 years that the Bible says that God will be Faithful TO SUCCESSIVE GENERATIONS. That is going to put Jesus' Return WAAAAY ON OUT THERE, FATHER THAN ANYONE HAS EVER DREAMED.

So, if we view those thousand generations as expressing a very great number of generations, that seems like they are never-ending, then we will be able to see in Bible language where "a thousand years" can be expressing a very great number of years, that seems forever, as if they are never-ending, BUT THE POINT IS THAT THIS PERIOD OF TIME IS FINITE.

Just as those thousand generations seem like they'll never end, they do end, and although the number of years in Jesus' Present Reign from Heaven seem like it's been Forever since He ASCENDED TO HIS THRONE, THIS PERIOD OF TIME WE ARE PRESENTLY IN, WILL EVENTUALLY COME TO AN END, AT HIS RETURN.

That is how God
would have us to understand the "thousand years" = BIBLICALLY.

*As seen in Revelation 20:4
"And I saw Thrones, and they sat upon them, and Judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the Word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years."

& **Revelation 20:6; "Blessed and Holy is he that hath part in the First Resurrection: on such the Second Death hath no power, but they shall be Priests of God and of Christ, and shall Reign with him a thousand years."

There's no reason for this to be taken spiritually. We follow a different set of hermeneutics.

No need to pursue it any further, we will never agree. but that's ok.

Nothing we say or believe can change what the Lord has already determined.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

The throne of David is not a heavenly throne.

NOTE: ULTIMATELY, The throne of David and the Throne of the LORD are one and the same Throne. [ Compare 1Kings 2:12 and 1Chronicles 29:23 ]

Jesus fulfilled the Prophecies that the Christ would Sit on David's Throne, yet He said, "I have Sat Down with My Father in His Throne" (Revelation 3:21).

ULTIMATELY, The throne of David, on Earth in Jerusalem, IS NOT THE THRONE OF DAVID THESE VERSES TEACH ABOUT.

THE PROMISE OF GOD IS FOR JESUS TO ACSEND TO THE THRONE OF DAVID IN HEAVEN WHERE JESUS CONTINUES HIS HEAVENLY REIGN, FOREVER.

God Promises king David,
"Your house and your kingdom
shall endure before you Forever.
Your throne will be established Forever" (2 Samuel 7:16).

Peter, centuries later, preached about this Promise.

He claims that David understood the Promise
to refer to the Christ Who, after His Death and Resurrection,
would Sit on the Throne and Rule from Heaven (Acts 2:22-36).

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

I can respect your position. I disagree. But I understand where you are coming from now. I don’t have time enough right now to keep discussing it, but I will catch up with you later.

Cool.

 

[Ben1445]

Cool.

A quick question.
Would you say that Satan is bound right now and not deceiving the nations?

 

[JD731]

For 32 years in the public/charter classroom and for 4 years in the Christian classroom, you had better believe that I expected MUCH from my students. And got it out of them.

Could you, at the age of 10 have dissected the word "dissimulation" and determined it to mean hypocrisy?

Our students are NOT, NOT ALL failing. Some are. Some are NOT. I'll never understand this mindset of Christians towards school teachers. Never.

The Bible is not for 10 year olds to understand. You think it is probably, but it isn't. Neither is the Bible for unsaved people to understand. The Bible is for a lifetime of study by those who wants to know the mind of God. God says it is here a little and there a little. The gospel is to be easy to understand, not the mysteries of the faith. The NT is full of mysteries and this is the purpose of God. If you through your brilliant mind can make these mysteries understandable then why do we need the indwelling teacher whom God gives us, the Holy Spirit. God hides the deep things of his mind from those who will not believe his words. He says that in Psalms 119, "the entrance of thy words giveth light, it giveth understanding to the simple."

I get wore out when I read the philosophy of this age .Christians do not search out the scriptures to know the mind of God usually. They are generally wearied by a post with enough Bible quotes in it to establish context. Their methods are to go to the book stores and buy books that tell them what to think. To them, there are only a few brilliant men capable of understanding the scriptures. I do not buy into that.

Who is this 10 year old who cannot understand the meaning of the word "dissembled" and what would be wrong with learning this word? And who says the word hypocrisy means the same thing as dissembled and fits the context better?
Galatians 2:13
And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.

In this context the word is clearly shown by the context to be an "act" of the Jewish Christians separating from the gentile Christians. It is a verb. The word hypocrisy describes an attitude. Since Paul is wanting to report what they did, dissimulate, and not just why they did it, hypocrisy, he used the right word to convey both.

I know that having many new Bibles does not help one to learn the mind of God because there are hardly two people here who agrees about anything. Why? I suppose it is because God is not obligated to enlighten minds with words that are not his. So, another trip to the book store.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

Dunno how we got here from an O.P. on there being safety in the King James Bible. And it's my O.P.

So, I start a New Thread;
This is how God would have us to understand the "thousand years" = BIBLICALLY.

 

[Alan Dale Gross]

Would you say that Satan is bound right now and not deceiving the nations?

And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations any more until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.

"In these verses we have a description of the binding of Satan. The dragon, here clearly identified as “the devil, Or Satan,” is said to be bound for a thousand years and then cast into a place called “the Abyss.” The purpose of this binding is “to keep him from deceiving the nations any more until the thousand years were ended.”

"The book of Revelation is full of symbolic numbers. Obviously the number “thousand” which is used here must not be interpreted in a literal sense. Since the number ten signifies completeness, and since a thousand is ten to the third power, we may think of the expression “a thousand years” as standing for a complete period, a very long period of indeterminate length.

"In agreement with what was said above about the structure of the book (in the article) and in the light of verses 7-15 of this very chapter (which describe Satan’s “little season,” the final battle and the final judgment), we may conclude that this thousand-year period extends from Christ’s first coming to just before his Second Coming.

"Since the “lake of fire” mentioned in verses 10, 14 and 15 is obviously a description of the place of final punishment, the “Abyss” mentioned in verses 1 and 3 must not be the place of final punishment. The word Abyss should rather be thought of as a figurative description of the way in which Satan’s activities will be curbed during the thousand-year period.

"What is meant, then, by the binding of Satan? In Old Testament times, at least in the post-Abrahamic era, all the nations of the world except Israel were, so to speak, under Satan’s rule. At that time the people of Israel were the recipients of God’s special revelation, so that they knew God’s truth about themselves, about their sinfulness, and about the way they could obtain forgiveness and salvation.

"During this same time, however, the other nations of the world did not know that truth, and were therefore in ignorance and error (see Acts 17:30) — except for an occasional person, family or city which came into contact with God’s special revelation. One could say that during this time these nations were deceived by Satan, as our first parents had been deceived by Satan when they fell into sin in the Garden of Eden.

"Just before his ascension, however, Christ gave his disciples his Great Commission: “Go and make disciples of all nations” (Mt. 28:19, NIV). At this point one can well imagine the disciples raising a disturbing question: How can we possibly do this if Satan continues to deceive the nations the way he has in the past?

"In Revelation 20:1-3 John gives a reassuring answer to this question. Paraphrased, his answer goes something like this: “During the gospel era which has now been ushered in, Satan will not be able to continue deceiving the nations the way he did in the past, for he has been bound. During this entire period, therefore, you, Christ’s disciples, will be able to preach the gospel and make disciples of all nations.”

"This does not imply that Satan can do no harm whatever while he is bound. It means only what John says here: While Satan is bound he cannot deceive the nations in such a way as to keep them from learning about the truth of God.

"Later in the chapter we are told that when the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations of the world to gather them together to fight against and, if possible, to destroy the people of God (verses 7-9).

"This, however, he cannot do while he is bound. We conclude, then, that the binding of Satan during the gospel age means that, first, he cannot prevent the spread of the gospel, and second, he cannot gather all the enemies of Christ together to attack the church."

More at: Amillennialism: Part I – Introduction by Anthony Hoekema

 

[Ben1445]

"In these verses we have a description of the binding of Satan. The dragon, here clearly identified as “the devil, Or Satan,” is said to be bound for a thousand years and then cast into a place called “the Abyss.” The purpose of this binding is “to keep him from deceiving the nations any more until the thousand years were ended.”

"The book of Revelation is full of symbolic numbers. Obviously the number “thousand” which is used here must not be interpreted in a literal sense. Since the number ten signifies completeness, and since a thousand is ten to the third power, we may think of the expression “a thousand years” as standing for a complete period, a very long period of indeterminate length.

"In agreement with what was said above about the structure of the book (in the article) and in the light of verses 7-15 of this very chapter (which describe Satan’s “little season,” the final battle and the final judgment), we may conclude that this thousand-year period extends from Christ’s first coming to just before his Second Coming.

"Since the “lake of fire” mentioned in verses 10, 14 and 15 is obviously a description of the place of final punishment, the “Abyss” mentioned in verses 1 and 3 must not be the place of final punishment. The word Abyss should rather be thought of as a figurative description of the way in which Satan’s activities will be curbed during the thousand-year period.

"What is meant, then, by the binding of Satan? In Old Testament times, at least in the post-Abrahamic era, all the nations of the world except Israel were, so to speak, under Satan’s rule. At that time the people of Israel were the recipients of God’s special revelation, so that they knew God’s truth about themselves, about their sinfulness, and about the way they could obtain forgiveness and salvation.

"During this same time, however, the other nations of the world did not know that truth, and were therefore in ignorance and error (see Acts 17:30) — except for an occasional person, family or city which came into contact with God’s special revelation. One could say that during this time these nations were deceived by Satan, as our first parents had been deceived by Satan when they fell into sin in the Garden of Eden.

"Just before his ascension, however, Christ gave his disciples his Great Commission: “Go and make disciples of all nations” (Mt. 28:19, NIV). At this point one can well imagine the disciples raising a disturbing question: How can we possibly do this if Satan continues to deceive the nations the way he has in the past?

"In Revelation 20:1-3 John gives a reassuring answer to this question. Paraphrased, his answer goes something like this: “During the gospel era which has now been ushered in, Satan will not be able to continue deceiving the nations the way he did in the past, for he has been bound. During this entire period, therefore, you, Christ’s disciples, will be able to preach the gospel and make disciples of all nations.”

"This does not imply that Satan can do no harm whatever while he is bound. It means only what John says here: While Satan is bound he cannot deceive the nations in such a way as to keep them from learning about the truth of God.

"Later in the chapter we are told that when the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison and will go out to deceive the nations of the world to gather them together to fight against and, if possible, to destroy the people of God (verses 7-9).

"This, however, he cannot do while he is bound. We conclude, then, that the binding of Satan during the gospel age means that, first, he cannot prevent the spread of the gospel, and second, he cannot gather all the enemies of Christ together to attack the church."

More at: Amillennialism: Part I – Introduction by Anthony Hoekema

In your spiritualization, would you not parallel to say that as Satan is not really bound, Jesus is not really reigning, especially since it is not really a thousand years?
I can’t get on board with all of your doubtful interpretations. I can’t come up with an equal amount of “we wouldn’t conclude” therefore we would not assume this to be literally stated.

I find it more plausible that Jesus will rule for a literal thousand years in the world and from the world, than that a virgin would conceive. This I say not because I doubt the second in any respect. If either were to be taken figuratively, I would say a virgin birth. But we know that was not figurative.
Once started down the road of prophecy is figurative, there is no purpose for prophecy. If you have to start performing acrobatics in numerology to find fulfillment of prophecy, what is the point of prophecy?
None of that explanation answers why it is figurative. It automatically assumes that a literal interpretation is out of the question. But literal interpretation is more respectably out of the question for virgin birth than for Revelation.