These signs will follow them who believe

[D28guy]

DHK,

I'm just wondering something.

Here is the passage of scripture again...

"And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover."

Now, the 1st part of that passage, this part...

"And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned."

Do you believe that part applies to only those Apostles and believers in the 1st century? Or do you believe it applies to all christians until Christ returns?

If you believe it applies to all christians until Christ returns, then why doesnt the rest apply as well?

There is absolutly nothing in the passage to indicate that proclaiming the gospel applies for all time but the signs that follow those who are proclaiming the gospel only apply to the apostles in the 1st century. Nor anywhere else in the scriptures.

Add to that the fact that history gives evidence that none of those things have stopped make your position very very shaky.

Grace and peace,

Mike

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by D28guy:
DHK,

"I never said that healing has ceased."

[qb]

Then why are you argueing?

Thats all the passages of scriptures says regarding healing.

Heres the passage again...

"And He said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature."

Christians have been doing that for 2000 years now.

"He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. And these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons;"

The passage hinges around the word "signs." The miraculous sign gifts ceased at the end of the first century. They were given primarily to the Apostles and early believers with Apostolic association of that first century. They are no longer in operation today. Again, it is very obvious when the passage is taken in its context, that the "signs" are no longer for today.

Christians have been doing that for 2000 years now.

"they will speak with new tongues;"

Christians have been doing that for 2000 years now.

No they haven't. Not if you are honest with yourself, but I do not believe that you are being neither honest nor objective in your study of Scripture, but rather are looking upon this subject with rose-colored glasses. The gift of Biblical tongues has not been repeated since the end of the first century, only a cheap imitiation of such. Modern tongues started in the beginning of the 19th century as almost anyone can verify. 1800 years therefore went without the Holy Spirit? Amazing! That is a characteristic of most cults as you well know, though I am not calling the Charismaticism a cult, but rather a movement, with some aberrant doctrine.

"they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them;"

Remember that the institution that God uses today is the local church. Thus today you may occaisionally find churches that practice serpent handling, and even the dangerous practice of drinking poisons. Both of which are dangerous pracitces and lead to deaths every year. Is it therefore of God. I hardly think so!!
God does not condone such foolishness. Neither does he condone that which goes plainly against Scripture: "Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God!"

Miraculous cases of christians continueing to live after something happens to them that should kill them have been happening for 2000 years now. Including by the way, people who recieve ordinarily lethal snake bites.

This happened to Paul on his way to Rome, and thus was fulfilled in the first century. In the first century this "sign gift" was fulfilled. It was not meant to carry on for all centuries. It was a sign for a temporary period of time, not for all centuries.
If God chooses to heal a snake bite it is of his choosing and his grace, not because of this promise. Many people (both saved and unsaved alike) are healed of snake bites. That has nothing to do with this promise. In fact the vast majority of people's bodies will heal on their own without the help on any prayer at all. Man's body is a wonderful thing, designed to heal itself. That is why very few people dye from a cold, of which there is no cure. The body is naturally resilient, and will heal itself anyway.

"they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.""

Christians have been doing that for 2000 years now.

Point...set...match.

Not so fast. Remember that I already have agreed with you on the application of James chapter five in the relation of James chapter five in relation to healing of very sick people that are in the church. They should go to their pastor(s) that are in their church, and request to be prayed over, for the purpose of healing. It is no guarantee, but it is God's will whether they be healed or not.
DHK

 

[D28guy]

DHK,

I said...

"Miraculous cases of christians continueing to live after something happens to them that should kill them have been happening for 2000 years now. Including by the way, people who recieve ordinarily lethal snake bites."

And you said...

"This happened to Paul on his way to Rome, and thus was fulfilled in the first century. In the first century this "sign gift" was fulfilled. It was not meant to carry on for all centuries."

So, you believe that when Christ said this...

"they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them;" (notice all the plural references?)

He actually meant...

"ONE will take up ONE serpent, and it will by no means hurt that ONE person"???

And what about the part about...

(more plural references coming)

"and if THEY drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt THEM?"

Where in the book of Acts is the one person whom all of those plural references are referring to?

If Christ wanted to speak of one serprent and one person He would have said that. But He didnt. He spoke plurally and indicated that these things will follow all of those who believe during the entirety of the dispensation of the grace of God found in Jesus Christ.

And they have.

(and I agree with you btw about churches that deliberatly handle snakes. I believe they should not do that. However, their are multitudes of testimonies of people who have been bit and suffered no ill affects.)

"The gift of Biblical tongues has not been repeated since the end of the first century, only a cheap imitiation of such. Modern tongues started in the beginning of the 19th century as almost anyone can verify."

Brother, I'll repeat. Get a hold of the book "2000 Years of Charismatic Christianity" The sign gifts have never ceased for 2000 years...including tongues.

"1800 years therefore went without the Holy Spirit? Amazing!"

Its amazing you would say such a thing. The Holy Spirit is alive and well and has been for 2000 years now. (And before that as well)

"That is a characteristic of most cults as you well know, though I am not calling the Charismaticism a cult, but rather a movement, with some aberrant doctrine."

Regarding those cults Satan is clever regarding counterfieting the true. But praise God he will eat the dust one day soon. Regarding bad doctrine in the charismatic movement, I agree that there is some of that. Exactly like there is bad doctrine in some groups in evangelicalism, a WHOLE LOT bad doctrine in liberal protestantism and an OVERWHELMING OVERFLOW of bad doctrine, and even idolatry and heresy, as you very clearly know, in the Catholic Church.

In all these areas it is no surprise for God told us there will always be tares mixed in with the wheat.

"Remember that I already have agreed with you on the application of James chapter five in the relation of James chapter five in relation to healing of very sick people that are in the church. They should go to their pastor(s) that are in their church, and request to be prayed over, for the purpose of healing. It is no guarantee, but it is God's will whether they be healed or not."

I agree completly.

God bless,

Mike

 

[spirit1st]

I got bit by a copper head once!Nothing happened!
I shot in the foot,GIOD healed me.Got on fire once!No scars.
Broke my ankle once.He told me too get up in faith and walk.I did!HE healed me .but it still looked very bad!
been in bad car wrecks.GOD ALWAYS healed me!
of course?I always chose HIm over doctors .But?Believe,unless ,HE tells you ,you should get help from doctors!
Being led by the HOPLY SPIRIT is the key ,too following OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST!Many follow other peoples words or there own understanding.Niether are GODS WILL!
He dwells with in us to guide and teach us!If we only ask HIM?Few do!
Few,ever experiance the walk and signs and wonders or other spiritual blessing,Which HE DESIRES TO GIVE US!Its very sad!

 

[music4Him]

I can't believe I missed this thread! But I see it now!

spirit1st I hear what your saying.

 

[J. Jump]

Interesting discussion so far. I have to agree that signs have ceased today because there is no need of them. Signs were for the Jews in relation to the kingdom that was being offered. If we understand the Gospel accounts correctly then signs would make much more sense.

John the Baptist, Christ, the disciples and apostles were offering the heavenly aspect of the ruling kingdom of earth. The physical kingdom had already been promised in the OT, but both physical and spiritual blessings were to flow from the seed of Abraham, so the heavenly aspect of the kingdom was in view.

The signs were in view, because it pointed to a healing that the nation would receive if they would repent. The supernatural provision (feeding of the 5,000 etc.) was a sign as to the supernatural provision the nation would receive if they would repent.

But only the Jews require a sign. Gentiles do not require a sign. The kingdom is no longer being offered to the nation of Israel so the signs are no longered required.

The signs were given to a group of Gentiles only while the offer of the kingdom was still open to the nation of Israel and it was only given to these to provoke Israel to jealousy. It didn't cause the nation to repent. And since the kingdom is no longer being offered to the nation then the signs are no longer needed.

 

[tamborine lady]

Well, J. Jump, uh... do you have any scripture to back that up?

I'm not saying you're wrong, but if you are right, there should be some scripture to go along with it.

Peace,

Tam

 

[J. Jump]

There's tons of Scripture

Are you looking for something in particular? The Jews are the only ones that require a sign can be found in I Corinthians 1:22.

If you are interested if further study just email me or send me a message and I will get you some information. God's blessings!!!

 

[music4Him]

J.Jump
Yeah your right when you say "There are tons of scripture

" ,but 1 Cor. 12 is talking about gifts not signs. What say ye?

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by music4Him:
J.Jump
Yeah your right when you say "There are tons of scripture

" ,but 1 Cor. 12 is talking about gifts not signs. What say ye?

Some of those gifts were signs. Thus we have "sign gifts" which have now ceased. They ceased with the apostles, at the end of the first century.

2 Corinthians 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

Hebrews 2:3-4 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

They were confirmed unto us by "them that heard them" (the apostles) both with signs and...the gifts of the Holy Spirit."
But today there are no Apostles. There are no signs and wonders. The Gifts of the Spirit have ceased.
DHK

 

[Ray Berrian]

Tamborine Lady,

You may or may not agree with me.

Miracles are happening all around the world as people tell me of His mighty wonders that He is performing in the lives of true Christians.

The reason we are not seeing that many miracles is because the American churches are so backslidden from where the Lord wants them to be, that He has already written them off just as found in the Laodocean church in Revelation.

Not many people are praying fervently for miracles to take place among sinners and saints, so we do not hear about many of them in these last days of the church within our sinful nation of the U.S.A.

Christians are too materialistic to receive all of the blessings and miracles that He would like to pour out on the people of God.

 

[DHK]

You fail to believe the Scripture I quote for you Ray. You fail to account for it. What does 2Cor.12:12 mean? What does Heb.2:3,4 mean? Or do you take a pair of scissors and cut those verses out of your Bible.

I don't deny that God still does miracles, and no one on this board does. But no one has the gift of miracles. No one can do what Peter did in Acts 5:16 who demonstrated for us the "gift of healing."

No one today has "the gift of miracles" that Paul referred to in 2Cor.12:12. There is no one like that alive today. Can you walk on water like Peter did. That was a miracle. Elijah made the axe-head float. That was a miracle. Joshua made the sun stand still. That was a miracle. Those miracles we don't have today. Have you raised any one from the dead lately. Paul did. But that doesn't happen today does it? The gift of miracles has ceased.

This has nothing to do with the spiritual condition of Christians today. God is working in a different way than when He was in the Apostolic Age. The Apostles are no longer alive.
DHK

 

[Ray Berrian]

DHK,

You said, 'This has nothing to do with the spiritual condition of Christians today. God is working in a different way than when He was in the Apostolic Age. The Apostles are no longer alive.'

You make it sound like the spiritual supermen like the Apostolate ended God's ability to do miracles. It is not the men who do the miracles it still remains the work and ministry of the Lord.

Jesus' grace and power to work through men and women of God is no less effectual today.

I went ice fishing last Wednesday and didn't even fall on the water that I was walking on--on that sunny day. It was a good outing; we had flags all day long until 3:30 when we stepped off the water.

My wife had a serious illness several years ago and we went to a healing service at First Assembly of God in Bethlehem and two Elders and the pastor laid hands on her and prayed over her. A few hours later at home she felt the warm Presence of the Holy Spirit flow through her body from head to toe. Divine healing . . .

My son when he was under two years old was dying and could not even keep water down. I anointed him with oil and prayed for him and after that he steadily recovered without medicine. I called my parents to the parsonage who lived five hours away in Schenectady and when they arrived Brian was already recovering.

Miracles are still going on today unless you are in an orthodoxy church that has simply dried up and refuses to believe that the Lord can do mighty works in the sight of other human beings. It is a matter of faith rather than unbelief.

Since the Lord does the healing--all praise goes to the Lord Who does His miracles.

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
DHK,

You said, 'This has nothing to do with the spiritual condition of Christians today. God is working in a different way than when He was in the Apostolic Age. The Apostles are no longer alive.'

You make it sound like the spiritual supermen like the Apostolate ended God's ability to do miracles. It is not the men who do the miracles it still remains the work and ministry of the Lord.

Jesus' grace and power to work through men and women of God is no less effectual today.

I went ice fishing last Wednesday and didn't even fall on the water that I was walking on--on that sunny day. It was a good outing; we had flags all day long until 3:30 when we stepped off the water.

Your make a mockery of the Word of God. Your response is no better than an atheist who ridicules the Word of God. Peter walked on water not on ice. Are you able to have an intelligent discussion about this?
DHK

 

[tamborine lady]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Tamborine Lady,

You may or may not agree with me.

Miracles are happening all around the world as people tell me of His mighty wonders that He is performing in the lives of true Christians.

The reason we are not seeing that many miracles is because the American churches are so backslidden from where the Lord wants them to be, that He has already written them off just as found in the Laodocean church in Revelation.

Not many people are praying fervently for miracles to take place among sinners and saints, so we do not hear about many of them in these last days of the church within our sinful nation of the U.S.A.

Christians are too materialistic to receive all of the blessings and miracles that He would like to pour out on the people of God.

Amen Ray,

sounds right on to me, no matter what the nay sayers say!!

Peace,

Tam

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
DHK,

You said, 'This has nothing to do with the spiritual condition of Christians today. God is working in a different way than when He was in the Apostolic Age. The Apostles are no longer alive.'

And you (as usual) conveniently avoided the Scripture that I gave you. I give you Scripture. You give me your rationalizations and experiences.
Sorry Ray. I base my life on the Word of God.
DHK

 

[music4Him]

Well I see alot of scripture being ignored! I do read the scripture posted on this board and I still hold membership in a Baptist church. The only difference I see is that I believe God still works the same as He did in the beginning and will continue till........
I don't want no argument its just what I read in the bible.
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by music4Him:
Well I see alot of scripture being ignored! I do read the scripture posted on this board and I still hold membership in a Baptist church. The only difference I see is that I believe God still works the same as He did in the beginning and will continue till........
I don't want no argument its just what I read in the bible.
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Not a lot of Scripture. I just posted a couple for him.

Some of those gifts were signs. Thus we have "sign gifts" which have now ceased. They ceased with the apostles, at the end of the first century.

2 Corinthians 12:12 Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds.

Hebrews 2:3-4 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

They were confirmed unto us by "them that heard them" (the apostles) both with signs and...the gifts of the Holy Spirit."
But today there are no Apostles. There are no signs and wonders. The Gifts of the Spirit have ceased.

Ray has trouble with these verses, and with good reason. It seems that none of the others in the Charismatic camp want anything to do with them either. They are those verses that they cut out of their Bibles.
DHK

 

[music4Him]

Sorry DHK, when I said alot of scripture being posted I not only ment this fourm but with this topic in general.

BTW, the scripture is not cut from mine....I believe the whole bible. Also, when you or others throw a scripture verse into the discussion, I read the whole chapter or sometimes the whole book surrounding the verse to get the true meaning.