Thessalonian Comfort or Future Coming? 2 Thess. 1

[lastday]

Lastday

kyredneck,

In your latest post, #98, you refer to your "baloney" remark in #92:

Originally Posted by lastday ....kyredneck has the same distorted view of verbal inspiration as does Logos1.....

Originally Posted by Winman

You are correct, Jesus said "quickly", not "soon". There is a HUGE difference in meaning between these two words. In Matthew Jesus compared his coming to lightning which shines from the east to west in a moment.......

As is your custom, you tried to overlook the facts by saying:

Oh, baloney. You premils consistently put the emPHASsi on the wrong sylLAHbull of a text, or literalize what is meant to be hyperbole or a metaphor or a type, etc..

In #92 you proved nothing and NOW, in response to admitting you maybe shouldn't have said "baloney", you dig yourself deeper into a hole of inconsistency by stating the following:

There is nothing within the text of the passage (Matt.24:27) to indicate that Christ was telling them that His coming would be 'as quick as lightnin'. He is telling them that just as lightning lights up the entire sky, so will His presence on earth be; '...now shall He be great unto the ends of the earth', which is in alignment with the rest of scripture as shown in post #92.

You follow the same distorted method of reasoning as that of Tom Riggle
who claimed (in #65) that the Thessalonians were given "relief, not rest"!
You contradict Jesus by claiming "NOTHING in the passage was telling them that His coming (Presence) would be 'as quick as lightning'"!! How can you
so deliberately and unashamedly deny the very words of Jesus Himself?!!!
Mel Miller

 

[Logos1]

Acts 1:11 is about Christ going into heaven not returning to earth

Futurists bite on the return trap in Acts 1:11 every time. They isolate the verse and use that as a pretense for taking it out of context. To truly understand the verse in context you have to read verses 9 – 11 and then it becomes plain that the apostles tell us Christ vanished from their sight. The angels show up merely to testify that Christ went to heaven when he left their sight. Since they didn’t see him they couldn’t say where he went verifying that Christ went to heaven upon his ascension helps to prove that he is the Son of God.

These verses don’t even deal with is return. Other verses do but these are strictly about his ascension.

“Your understanding of the inspiration of Scripture is utterly astounding!” Mel

You flatter me too much Mel!

 

[kyredneck]

That your interpretation is error is shown by verse 26.

Matt 24:26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be....

I fail to see anything in v 26 that shows my interpretation to be in error. I see from comparing with much other scripture that I am correct.

I reiterate from post 92:

Christ is telling them that 'in His day' [THAT BEING TODAY], He won't be 'in the desert' or in a 'secret chamber' or in Jerusalem or any other particular location on earth, He will be EVERYWHERE (as the lightning cometh forth from the east, and is seen even unto the west

Jesus was not teaching that his presence would be everywhere as you believe, in fact he is teaching the opposite....

??????? The opposite of 'being everywhere' would be 'only in one location', right? And where might that one location be?

... he is teaching that he will suddenly appear, quick as lightning from the east to the west and it will be obvious to all.....

You're with hoi polloi on that. You hold the majority opinion.

But he is not promising to come "soon". He said he would come "quickly" which is a very different word with a very different meaning.

This particular verse (Mt 24:27) is referring neither to His coming soon, or quickly. The passage is referring to 'the enlargement':

1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith Jehovah.
2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thy habitations; spare not: lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes.
3 For thou shalt spread aboard on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall possess the nations, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited. Isa 54

This is the passage in MT 24 that is referring to His coming soon:
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished.

Show me in scriptures where Jesus ever said he was coming "soon".

......This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished.......

 

[lastday]

Logos1:
That your view of inspiration is "astounding" was meant as sarcasm; not as flattery!
Your continued inistence that I was commending you typifies one who distorts truth!!
Here you once again deny that the Disciples actually saw Jesus ascending to heaven!!!

"Christ went to heaven when he left their sight. Since they didn’t see him they couldn’t say where he went..."

Just like Riggle and kyredneck, who claim the Thessalonians found "relief, but not rest"! OR that Jesus told us "nothing about His coming (Presence) as being like lightning"!!
So You claim the Disciples coudn't see what the Angels saw as Jesus ascended!!!
Mel

 

[Logos1]

Logos1:
That your view of inspiration is "astounding" was meant as sarcasm; not as flattery!
Your continued inistence that I was commending you typifies one who distorts truth!!

Here you once again deny that the Disciples actually saw Jesus ascending to heaven!!!
So You claim the Disciples coudn't see what the Angels saw as Jesus ascended!!!
Mel

Spoken like a true premil futurist, they can dish it out, but when it comes time to take it they run whining to mama. Here we see not one iota of sarcasm changed in a statement Mel was only too willing to fling my way, but when it comes back at him unchanged it’s mama he hit me time. Typical.

On a more positive note and looking at how it’s interesting to see how Jesus uses Matt:24 29-31 to echo the language of Isaiah 13. Isaiah uses the metaphoric language of the sun being darkened, moon not giving its light, and stars falling from the sky to prophesy against Babylon. Ancient Babylon was sacked in 689 BC. This is not an end of time event.

Christ uses the same metaphoric language in Matt 24 in the same context to prophesy against Jerusalem and to describe the events of 70 AD.

John records the same metaphoric language in Revelation 8 when writes about heavenly bodies to describe Babylon (Jerusalem’s) fate. It’s not an end of time event here either.

P.S. Mel it was the apostles who claimed they couldn’t see Christ as he ascended to heaven—read Acts 1:9. That will clear it up for you.

“Your understanding of the inspiration of Scripture is utterly astounding!” Mel

I get a warm, fuzzy every time I read that. God bless you Mel!

 

[HankD]

Futurists bite on the return trap in Acts 1:11 every time. They isolate the verse and use that as a pretense for taking it out of context. To truly understand the verse in context you have to read verses 9 – 11 and then it becomes plain that the apostles tell us Christ vanished from their sight. The angels show up merely to testify that Christ went to heaven when he left their sight. Since they didn’t see him they couldn’t say where he went verifying that Christ went to heaven upon his ascension helps to prove that he is the Son of God.

These verses don’t even deal with is return. Other verses do but these are strictly about his ascension.

“Your understanding of the inspiration of Scripture is utterly astounding!” Mel

You flatter me too much Mel!

Hi again Logos.

A return trap? Really?

OK lets look at Acts 1:11 in its context:

Acts 1

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.​

So the context is the question concerning when the kingdom will be returned to Israel. The Lord gives a non-committal answer and a comand and then is "taken up", He "went up" and the apostles were "gazing up" as He "went up".

"Taken up" epairo Used as in English, to lift or raise up, to hoist sails...
"went up" poreuomi Go, proceed, travel, journey, leave...

"This same Jesus" - we already looked at the words of the original. It is Jesus Himself who will return (shall so come in like manner) just as the English indicates.

In like manner - it is plainly stated that He went "up" into heaven which is plainly illustrated by the words which are used. One can concude therefore that He will come down from heaven and it will be "this same Jesus" and not Titus.

How does your use of the word "vanish" (which BTW is not in the text) negate that statement?

The word "vanish" is used in the NT in the way I believe you mean but that is not the word usage here.

The Zechariah passage answers to both the time and place of His coming in like manner when His feet shall touch down upon the Mount of Olives and He Himself shall fight against those Gentile nations (Goyim) gathered to do battle against Jerusalem.

It also answers their question concerning the kingdom:

9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.​

IMO, to accept the premise of full preterism, one would have to give a better explanation of this passage (Acts 1:11) than to just deny what it appears to say and issue an ad hominem that it is a "trap" which futurists "bite everytime".

HankD

 

[lastday]

Lastday

HankD:

Thank you Hank for again showing how Preterists evade the simple Truth!
We have unhinged and unmasked their heresy and failure to even respond!!
I am now beginning to wonder about those who administer this very thread!!!

Way back in #45 and later...as Winman complained that Preterists refuse to explain why God informs the Martyrs they "Must wait a short time until the
REST of those who must be killed should be killed" could they or should they
expect Him to "avenge their blood"...I have been skeptical of their veracity!

I continued to doubt their honesty when they could not explain the change
to the "Eternal Estate", NOR the meaning of the "End of Time" NOR the so
clearly obvious fact that the Disciples KNEW Jesus had gone to heaven and
would come again "In the Same Manner"!! For the "times and seasons are in
the Father's hands"!!!

Logos1 and I have mutually agreed that any agreement is untenable!
He denies TRUTH and refuses my "sarcasm" in exposing his pretensions!!
He stubbornly insists my "confidence in him" makes him "fuzzy and warm"!!!

We need no more evidence of the heretical teaching of these Full Preterists!
I submit it's time our leaders label this false teaching as being off limits!!
Failure to do so raises serious ?'s of "condoning false doctrine"!!!
Mel

 

[Logos1]

Rapture theory Vaporized by scripture comparison

If Preterism were really false doctrine you would have an easy time refuting it as opposed to merely declaring victory and begging the monitors to bale you out by banning it. Obviously you have run out of arguments. Perhaps I should ask the monitors to ban futurism based on its supporters inability to make the case for it (just kidding, I’m not scared of futurists).

Might I suggest you take a vacation from the forums Mel until you’re not so worked up. These debates aren’t worth a brain aneurysm. Take them in stride or take a break. Come back when you’re more relaxed with all of it.

But as I was about to say…The rapture theory is vaporized by comparing Matt 24 and 1 Thess 4.

Matthew 24 addresses the 70 AD coming of Christ in judgment against Jerusalem and 1 Thess 4 is drawn from Matthew 24. They describe the same event.

Most rapture theory supporters see a rapture event in 1 Thess 4 and a second coming in Matt 24, but since they see Matt 24 as the second coming they have negated the possibility of a rapture event. It can’t be both a rapture and the second coming.

“Your understanding of the inspiration of Scripture is utterly astounding!” Mel

I’m humbled by your gratitude Mel

 

[HankD]

If Preterism were really false doctrine you would have an easy time refuting it as opposed to merely declaring victory and begging the monitors to bale you out by banning it. Obviously you have run out of arguments. Perhaps I should ask the monitors to ban futurism based on its supporters inability to make the case for it (just kidding, I’m not scared of futurists).

Might I suggest you take a vacation from the forums Mel until you’re not so worked up. These debates aren’t worth a brain aneurysm. Take them in stride or take a break. Come back when you’re more relaxed with all of it.

But as I was about to say…The rapture theory is vaporized by comparing Matt 24 and 1 Thess 4.

Matthew 24 addresses the 70 AD coming of Christ in judgment against Jerusalem and 1 Thess 4 is drawn from Matthew 24. They describe the same event.

Most rapture theory supporters see a rapture event in 1 Thess 4 and a second coming in Matt 24, but since they see Matt 24 as the second coming they have negated the possibility of a rapture event. It can’t be both a rapture and the second coming.

“Your understanding of the inspiration of Scripture is utterly astounding!” Mel

I’m humbled by your gratitude Mel

I don't have a big problem debating with you logos1. What bothers me generally is the divisiveness these kind of discussions can engender and the raw insensitivity many display to each other.

But we are Baptists and one of the distinctives is soul liberty.

And OBTW, yes, IMO it is possible to have both a rapture and a second coming. It depends on what is meant by "rapture - Latin rapturo" and it's koine counter part "harpazo".

In the two instances which Christ made comparison to His coming show the distinction:

Luke 17

26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.​

In both these cases a select few were first removed from the place of the coming judgment and then came the destruction.​

The "rapture" is the process or the act of removal of the selected ones
(Getting in the ark and/or getting out of Dodge - Sodom.​

The Second Coming is the destruction which follows and is involved with the Day of the Lord from which the elect are protected.​

These two comparisons show both protection from and removal of believers before the wrath to follow.
Jesus then goes on to say Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

HankD​

 

[Logos1]

Hi Hank, We agree some and we disagree some

Greetings Hank,

“But we are Baptists and one of the distinctives is soul liberty.”

Agreed 100%! Perhaps my favorite part of being a Baptist is our heritage that dates back to the farms around Scrooby, England in the early 1600s. I love those guys gathering in the fields with one who could read their Geneva bible (most people were still illiterate) and basing their faith on sola scripture and casting off the conventions of Catholicism and the Anglican Church. I think part of what being a Baptist should always be about is freedom from regimented religion to pursue a personal relationship with Christ lead by the Holy Spirit to reveal the understanding of the Holy Scriptures. Their eschatology was generally Historicism, but I don’t hold it against them.

And, even though I’ve been having a little fun with Lastdays (I guess that makes me evil, LOL) I swear by all my Preterist beliefs I’m not the least bit mad at him or put out with him. I’ve passed on a lot of slow pitches he has sent my way recently which took no small amount of will power on my part if I do say so myself. I’m so comfortable in my beliefs and so use to the give and take of forums that I don’t get mad at anybody in here. Especially Lastdays. I enjoy him (yea I know I’m evil).

I think futurists should go to a forum where they are not known and pretend to be Preterists and see how they get treated by their brethren for a little while and it would toughen up their skin quite a bit. I’m way past getting upset at being called heretic, satan, the anti-christ etc, etc.

But any way to your point on the prospect of their being a rapture—indeed we do disagree on that. In my premil days I took great comfort in the prospect that I would get the easy way into heaven. I hated to give it up. If I could hang on to just one part of being premil wouldn’t we all want to choose it.

I didn’t even mention that seeing a rapture holds on to the English translation of air. If Paul had meant we would get caught up in the sky he would have used the Greek word ouranos instead of aer which denotes spiritual realm.

I’m sure if we ever met in person Hank we would be good friends and have lively discussions. I’m sure when we both get to heaven we will look back on these forums as fun.

“Your understanding of the inspiration of Scripture is utterly astounding!” Mel

(It’s almost cute the way Lastdays gets frustrated at that)

(bad logos1, I did it again)

 

[HankD]

Greetings Hank,

“But we are Baptists and one of the distinctives is soul liberty.”

Agreed 100%! Perhaps my favorite part of being a Baptist is our heritage that dates back to the farms around Scrooby, England in the early 1600s. I love those guys gathering in the fields with one who could read their Geneva bible (most people were still illiterate) and basing their faith on sola scripture and casting off the conventions of Catholicism and the Anglican Church. I think part of what being a Baptist should always be about is freedom from regimented religion to pursue a personal relationship with Christ lead by the Holy Spirit to reveal the understanding of the Holy Scriptures. Their eschatology was generally Historicism, but I don’t hold it against them.

And, even though I’ve been having a little fun with Lastdays (I guess that makes me evil, LOL) I swear by all my Preterist beliefs I’m not the least bit mad at him or put out with him. I’ve passed on a lot of slow pitches he has sent my way recently which took no small amount of will power on my part if I do say so myself. I’m so comfortable in my beliefs and so use to the give and take of forums that I don’t get mad at anybody in here. Especially Lastdays. I enjoy him (yea I know I’m evil).

I think futurists should go to a forum where they are not known and pretend to be Preterists and see how they get treated by their brethren for a little while and it would toughen up their skin quite a bit. I’m way past getting upset at being called heretic, satan, the anti-christ etc, etc.

But any way to your point on the prospect of their being a rapture—indeed we do disagree on that. In my premil days I took great comfort in the prospect that I would get the easy way into heaven. I hated to give it up. If I could hang on to just one part of being premil wouldn’t we all want to choose it.

I didn’t even mention that seeing a rapture holds on to the English translation of air. If Paul had meant we would get caught up in the sky he would have used the Greek word ouranos instead of aer which denotes spiritual realm.

I’m sure if we ever met in person Hank we would be good friends and have lively discussions. I’m sure when we both get to heaven we will look back on these forums as fun.

“Your understanding of the inspiration of Scripture is utterly astounding!” Mel

(It’s almost cute the way Lastdays gets frustrated at that)

(bad logos1, I did it again)

Thanks Logos1.

Yes, I am sure we will meet in heaven as we are indeed more than friends; brothers in the Lord.

BTW, you may very well be (IMO of course) at least partially correct about aer.

I did a word-phrase study once and found the "in the air - eis aera" could be a figure of speech. It is used in 1 Corinthians 9:26 and 1 Corinthians 14:9 in such a way.

However, if it's usage is a figure of speech, it simply means that we will meet the Lord in an undisclosed place the scope of which which would include the air of the atmosphere.

But it might mean that the "rapture" could mean a "snatching away" or a removal to a place of protection other than "heaven" since you are correct the word ouranos is not used.

All speculation on my part.


HankD

 

[lastday]

Lastday

HankD,

You may also have done a word search on "aera" and "ouranos" but assume the two words cannot refer to the "gathering place...the Synagogue" in the sky! Jesus describes His "gathering of the elect from earth to heaven on the four winds" in Mark 13:27. He will "send the angels to gather them together out of the same four winds from all extremities of the heavens" in Matt.24:31!!
You seem to think, like Logos, that this "gathering" is a figure of speech!!!
You Wrote:

I did a word-phrase study once and found the "in the air - eis aera" could be a figure of speech. It is used in 1 Corinthians 9:26 and 1 Corinthians 14:9 in such a way.
However, if it's usage is a figure of speech, it simply means that we will meet the Lord in an undisclosed place the scope of which which would include the air of the atmosphere.
But it might mean that the "rapture" could mean a "snatching away" or a removal to a place of protection other than "heaven" since you are correct the word ouranos is not used.

I'm sure Paul would agree with Jesus that the "Gathering Place (synagogue;
a noun used by Paul in 2 Thess.2:1) refers to the same event that Jesus
describes in Matt and Mark with respect to the verbal action of physically "gathering believers on the four winds from earth to heaven". Are you sure Logos correctly calls this a "spiritual realm" rather than a literal, physical meeting place immediately above and surrounding earth's atmosphere?

I find Logos seriously lacking in exhaustive research of the Greek...both the
tenses and the various meanings of the same root word. He refused to acknowledge the significance of the double use of the Perfect Participle in Mark 9:1 that requires an End of Time expectation of Martyrdom by a "few" who must still taste death before Christ's return 2000 years after He left
earth for the third heaven to "remain until the times to restore all things".

Winman and I have agreed with Logos that the root word for "quickly" can mean "soon" and is so translated in Rev.1:1 and Rev.20:6 relative to future
Endtime events that occur shortly before Christ comes to "gather us above".

But Logos is not exhaustive in his study! "Tachus" must mean "swiftly" and so is translated "quickly" in Rev.20:7,12,20 and James 1:19 and 2 Pet.2:1 where the action is "swift"!! Logos denies Jesus refers to a supernatural act...being a physically sudden, lightning-like act...because Logos is hung-up on just one of 2 interpretations of the same root word...just as he is "hung up" on the word "near" as if it must refer to the workings of his finite mind instead of God's infinite view of time!!!

"Beating the air and speaking in the air" may be "figures of speech" in the
two verses you cite! But you seem to agree with Logos that being "gathered
together above" (epi-sunago"; a verb) to the "meeting place above unto Jesus (epi-sunagog-epi; a noun) in the aera" are also figures of speech!!
As if it is an unknown and undefined and "undisclosed" spiritual realm!!!

Would you also question that Believers will be taken up from the earth to meet
Jesus at His Presence? Does your understanding of His Presence deny that
"every eye will see Him coming...causing the tribes of earth to mourn"??
Is it not possible that Logos is wrong in accusing me of "twisting" the truth
stated by Jesus that (if Caiaphas became a Believer) "Caiaphas would "from now" see Him coming in the clouds of heaven...just as "from now", until He comes on the day of reckoning to reap the earth, those who "die in the Lord are blessed"??? Matt.26:64; Rev.14:13-19.
Mel Miller

 

[lastday]

HankD,

Please forgive me for thinking you might be in agreement with Logos!
I see from your following quote that you are not one of his group!!
I jumped too quickly over his mis-use of "figures of speech"!!!

IMO, to accept the premise of full preterism, one would have to give a better explanation of this passage (Acts 1:11) than to just deny what it appears to say and issue an ad hominem that it is a "trap" which futurists "bite everytime".

HankD

 

[Winman]

Winman and I have agreed with Logos that the root word for "quickly" can mean "soon" and is so translated in Rev.1:1 and Rev.20:6 relative to future
Endtime events that occur shortly before Christ comes to "gather us above".

Actually, I do not agree with Logos and others who intepret "quickly" to mean "soon". Jesus never said he was coming soon and in fact in many parables taught that he would tarry for a long time before he comes.

But when he does come he comes quickly, that is suddenly and very abruptly without warning. If a person has never received Christ they will not have time to believe on him and will be lost forever. That is why the scriptures tell us to believe today while we have the opportunity.

Heb 3:15 While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation.

Matt 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

When a person interprets the word quickly to mean soon they err and miss the true meaning of what Jesus was saying.

 

[lastday]

Lastday

Winman,

Thank you for clarification. I assumed you would agree that Rev.1:1 and
Rev.22:6 means "soon" and not "swiftly" as it does in Rev.22:7,12,20!
Please note here, I do not at all disagree with you; but have assumed you
agree Tachos (5034) means "soon" and Tachu (5035) means "swiftly"!!
I would add that the word "near" has a kindred idea to that of "soon"!!!
You Write:

When a person interprets the word quickly to mean soon they err and miss the true meaning of what Jesus was saying.

Again, I agree with you; but we must allow the root word Tachos has both ideas
of what is "near" with reference to the things that happen during the entire 1260 endtime days; whereas "quickly" (in Rev.22:7,12,20) applies ONLY to the
actual Day Christ appears.

Why is this distinction important?

It shows that what is "near", relative to Endtime events, will be the occasion and only period of time for Believers to "know the end is near"! Matt.24:33. The "all things that happens", in order to fulfill what occurs "swiftly", applies to events of the DAY Christ appears in glory for the Rescue of Saints, the Redemption of Israel and Retribution upon the wicked at Armageddon!! That's why I think Jesus added the caution that "no one knows the day or hour"... not even those who see the Armies gathering to Armageddon and the Beast killing the 2 Prophets...nor even those who watch intensely with no thought of anything but Christ's Coming and Presence!!! Rev.16:15.

I believe the thought by so many of that DAY and HOUR for the "Rapture" being a possibility PRIOR to the Armies gathering to Armageddon is totally misplaced. Men must "see Christ appearing in glory" before He "gathers the elect and brings us to earth in great power and glory". Pre-Trib doctrine
has "put the cart before the horse" if I may use that phrase in this context.

Christ's appearance will occur "without warning" for the wicked...but yet I think you must admit that men will "faint from fear" during the SIGNS of that Day that occur prior to the SIGN of His Presence.
Mel

 

[Winman]

Well, I think our English translation is good in that it uses the word "shortly" in Rev 1:1 and not "quickly". Yes, shortly means that it will happen soon. However, what man perceives as soon and what God perceives as soon is not always the same thing. Peter warned of those who would grow impatient and scoff at the Lord's coming.

2 Pet 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

These persons are scoffers because they have waited a long time and have grown impatient, but Peter reminds them that a thousand years is like one day to the Lord.

2 Pet 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

So, when the Lord says "shortly" it may seem like a long time to us, but a very short time to him.

It shows that what is "near", relative to Endtime events, will be the occasion and only period of time for Believers to "know the end is near"! Matt.24:33. The "all things that happens", in order to fulfill what occurs "swiftly", applies to events of the DAY Christ appears in glory for the Rescue of Saints, the Redemption of Israel and Retribution upon the wicked at Armageddon!! That's why I think Jesus added the caution that "no one knows the day or hour"... not even those who see the Armies gathering to Armageddon and the Beast killing the 2 Prophets...nor even those who watch intensely with no thought of anything but Christ's Coming and Presence!!! Rev.16:15.

I believe the thought by so many of that DAY and HOUR for the "Rapture" being a possibility PRIOR to the Armies gathering to Armageddon is totally misplaced. Men must "see Christ appearing in glory" before He "gathers the elect and brings us to earth in great power and glory". Pre-Trib doctrine
has "put the cart before the horse" if I may use that phrase in this context.

Christ's appearance will occur "without warning" for the wicked...but yet I think you must admit that men will "faint from fear" during the SIGNS of that Day that occur prior to the SIGN of His Presence.

Well, Matt 24:33 says "when we see all these things" we will know the time is near.

Matt 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

The Preterist will say all these events happened before 70 A.D., but I do not agree.

But you are correct, although we do not know the exact day or hour, it is clear that Jesus told us we can observe these happenings and have a sense of when his return is near.

 

[kyredneck]

To add more, Jesus never taught that he was returning soon....

Wrong:

But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou art the Christ, the Son of God. Jesus said unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Henceforth ye shall see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven. Mt 26:64

22 For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lu 21

Hear another parable: There was a man that was a householder, who planted a vineyard, and set a hedge about it, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into another country. And when the season of the fruits drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, to receive his fruits. And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another. Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them in like manner. But afterward he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son. But the husbandmen, when they saw the son, said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and take his inheritance. And they took him, and cast him forth out of the vineyard, and killed him When therefore the lord of the vineyard shall come, what will he do unto those husbandmen? They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those miserable men, and will let out the vineyard unto other husbandmen, who shall render him the fruits in their seasons. Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, The same was made the head of the corner; This was from the Lord, And it is marvelous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And he that falleth on this stone shall be broken to pieces: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will scatter him as dust. And when the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. And when they sought to lay hold on him, they feared the multitudes, because they took him for a prophet. Mt 21:33-46

Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. Mt 23:36

29 And when the multitudes were gathering together unto him, he began to say, This generation is an evil generation: it seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it but the sign of Jonah.
30 For even as Jonah became a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation.
31 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation, and shall condemn them: for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
32 The men of Nineveh shall stand up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, a greater than Jonah is here.
50 that the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;
51 from the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zachariah, who perished between the altar and the sanctuary: yea, I say unto you, it shall be required of this generation. Lu 11

But when they persecute you in this city, flee into the next: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone through the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. Mt 10:23

Verily I say unto you, there are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Mt 16 :28

 

[kyredneck]

.....on the contrary, he taught that he would tarry and that people would become complacent....... he taught there would be a delay, a long time that passes and men would become complacent. ......

'A long time' is relative. Forty days and forty nights may not seem very long unless you're the one doing the fasting for forty days and forty nights, or bearing the rain of the flood for forty days and forty nights. Forty years may not sound like 'a long time' unless you're the one that's wandering around in the desert for forty years.

The Hebrews couldn't even wait for Moses to return while he tarried forty days and forty nights on Mt Sinai:

And Moses entered into the midst of the cloud, and went up into the mount: and Moses was in the mount forty days and forty nights. Ex 24:18
And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down from the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him, Up, make us gods, which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we know not what is become of him. Ex 32:1

I suggest to you that it is no mere coincidence that forty years after His ascension Jerusalem was destroyed and ' the vineyard was let out unto other husbandmen who would render him the fruits in their seasons'.

He gave the Jews forty years, a full generation, to repent, and they would not. I am convinced from reading Hebrews, the Jewish Church itself was in danger of reverting back to apostate Judaism.

And I gave her time that she should repent; and she willeth not to repent of her fornication. Re 2:21

....when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth [the land]? Lu 18:8

 

[Logos1]

Comparing Thess to Matt proves several things

What end of the age is spoken of in Thessalonians 4?

Futurists posit it has being the end of the Christian age. Maybe a closer look is in order. Paul is echoing the words of Christ when he speaks of the thief in the night. Matt 24:43 vs 1 Thess 5:2. Obviously Paul is speaking of the same coming that Christ was speaking of. These are one and the same event not two separate events.

In Matthew 24:34 Christ says “This generation will certainly not pass away until all these things take place.

They are living in the Mosaic generation. Christ was born under the law Gal 4:4. In the absence of any notation of a different generation such as “the generation to come” or “the next generation” or “the Christian generation” or “the New Covenant generation” we have to accept Christ was speaking of the current generation or the Mosaic generation. This generation is his audience—the people listening to him. His Jewish audience is only concerned with events pertaining to them and the means of their redemption not a different generation thousands of years in the future. We have to respect the temporal imperatives of this conversation. To torture a different meaning out of this passage is delusional to put it kindly.

This pure and simple fact establishes several things beyond honest reproach.

1. Christ came back at the end of the Mosaic age in 70 AD.
2. He didn’t come back in a physical body floating on a cloud.
3. There is no rapture since these are the same event it rules out Christ coming back to rapture the church in some other coming.
4. Since Thessalonians speaks of the resurrection at Christ’s return it is not talking about dead corpses rising up out of the grave, but rather a spiritual reconciliation back into God’s presence in our glorified spiritual bodies.

The simplicity of the comparisons begets the obvious conclusions. The simplicity of the conclusions begets the obvious doctrines. The simplicity of the doctrines begets the obvious eschatology--Preterism.

It’s beautiful the way the different passages allow us to compare scripture to scripture and gain a full understanding of the teachings of Christ and his Apostles.

“Your understanding of the inspiration of Scripture is utterly astounding!” Mel

Thanks Mel—you’re the only guy who can make me blush!

 

[HankD]

What end of the age is spoken of in Thessalonians 4?

Futurists posit it has being the end of the Christian age. Maybe a closer look is in order. Paul is echoing the words of Christ when he speaks of the thief in the night. Matt 24:43 vs 1 Thess 5:2. Obviously Paul is speaking of the same coming that Christ was speaking of. These are one and the same event not two separate events.

In Matthew 24:34 Christ says “This generation will certainly not pass away until all these things take place.

They are living in the Mosaic generation. Christ was born under the law Gal 4:4. In the absence of any notation of a different generation such as “the generation to come” or “the next generation” or “the Christian generation” or “the New Covenant generation” we have to accept Christ was speaking of the current generation or the Mosaic generation. This generation is his audience—the people listening to him. His Jewish audience is only concerned with events pertaining to them and the means of their redemption not a different generation thousands of years in the future. We have to respect the temporal imperatives of this conversation. To torture a different meaning out of this passage is delusional to put it kindly.

This pure and simple fact establishes several things beyond honest reproach.

1. Christ came back at the end of the Mosaic age in 70 AD.
2. He didn’t come back in a physical body floating on a cloud.
3. There is no rapture since these are the same event it rules out Christ coming back to rapture the church in some other coming.
4. Since Thessalonians speaks of the resurrection at Christ’s return it is not talking about dead corpses rising up out of the grave, but rather a spiritual reconciliation back into God’s presence in our glorified spiritual bodies.

The simplicity of the comparisons begets the obvious conclusions. The simplicity of the conclusions begets the obvious doctrines. The simplicity of the doctrines begets the obvious eschatology--Preterism.

It’s beautiful the way the different passages allow us to compare scripture to scripture and gain a full understanding of the teachings of Christ and his Apostles.

“Your understanding of the inspiration of Scripture is utterly astounding!” Mel

Thanks Mel—you’re the only guy who can make me blush!

The problem futurists have with preterism is the illusion of simplicity because there are a multitude of other Scripture which have to be explained "away" or spiritualized/allegorized into a kind of apocalyptic imagery.

The only real simplicity is assigning the sack of Jerusalem by Titus to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ to deal with the "soon" coming passages.

A myriad of other scriptures must be dealt with, not just Acts 1:11 but a raft of prophetic Scriptures in both the Old and New Testaments:

e.g.

Luke 22

29 And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.​

In AD70 all the apostles had not yet left the scene so this can't apply to that event.​

In any case, Jesus promises some very earthly things here and other places concerning His kingdom: eating and drinking, etc.​

Then as someone has mentioned, there are other problems with preterism:The end of this material world, the eternal state, the bodily resurrection of the saints and others of which seem to have no consistent solutions from even knowledgeable preterists.​

So one "problem" : the "sooness" of His coming and that apparent expectation from some of the writings of the apostles is solved but a raft of unanswered (or unanswerable) questions flood the scene.​

HankD​