Thessalonian Comfort or Future Coming? 2 Thess. 1

[asterisktom]

I am at a loss as to how you can reject the interpretation that relief from persecution for the Thessalonians (and all of the church) happens at the coming of Christ when he executes justice. I am also at a loss as to how you think this would not bring encouragement to them?

No, I didn't say that. Such a promise that you are speaking does certainly bring encouragement to all who have faith. All Christians know that, when they are suffering and under trials they will be rewarded ultimately. "We must through many tribulations enter into the kingdom of God." I am not denying any of this. Paul teaches this very fact elsewhere.

But my point, Paul, is that there are other promises and encouragements in the Bible that tend to go unnoticed.

When God told Paul that "I am with you, and no one shall do you harm; for I have many people in this city." He was speaking of real, particular protection. He was speaking to a person. He was referring to a place - Corinth. It would not do for a missionary to take this promise and use it as a certain amulet of protection as he ministers to the modern people of Corinth (assuming that it exists today, though it doesn't). No, we needed to read the promise through Pauline eyes. In the same way, we need to read these Thessalonian promises through Thessalonian eyes.

Yes, this example is extreme, but for that very reason it serves to illustrate just how, I believe, we should take this passage in Thess.

Arguing my case is made doubly difficult, I believe, because you are probably working under wrong assumptions of what Preterists believe or don't believe. You have already three or four times as much as stated things as if I believed them when they were not what I believed. Oh well, I will keep plugging away here because you are respectful and show some signs of interacting with some of what I wrote.

 

[Paul33]

Hello Paul33,

Actually, I already did! "Jump in" that is. What you are saying here is essentially the same, I think, as what I said back in Post #74 - of this same thread. It may be bad form, but I am quoting it here again:

Thank you! Being a johnnie come lately to this thread, I had not read your response. I got anxious to respond somewhere around page three!

Thank you again. You did in fact say what I am saying now.

Blessings.

 

[Paul33]

I have explained it. I went into great detail.

No, you stated that relief must mean relief in their lifetime from persecution or the admonition from Paul would be meaningless. Then you refuse to let the text define what God's justice would look like and when it would happen.

No one reading this text can come to any other conclusion unless coming to the text with preconceived notions of what "relief" and "pay back trouble" must mean. Persecution is the norm for all believers. Persecution ends "on that day" when Christ is revealed in blazing fire with his powerful angels to be glorified in his holy people. This is 1 Thess. 4:16ff. This is Matthew 24:1ff. This is Revelation 19:11ff. This is Zechariah 12-14. This is 2 Timothy 2:1-12.

I know you don't want to look at other passages, but you are not willing to look at the Thessalonian passage under consideration. So maybe these will help.

How can you argue that 2 Thess. 1:6-7a can not be interpreted by 1:7b-10?

The return of Christ in every passage cited above is a physical, literal return of Christ to judge unbelievers and grant relief to believers.

 

[asterisktom]

I know you don't want to look at other passages, but you are not willing to look at the Thessalonian passage under consideration.

Where did this come from?! I only asked that the text I brought up be considered first. It is very easy to springboards from a problem passage without giving it due consideration.

By all means, the whole Bible is useful and helpful.

 

[Paul33]

No, I didn't say that. Such a promise that you are speaking does certainly bring encouragement to all who have faith. All Christians know that, when they are suffering and under trials they will be rewarded ultimately. "We must through many tribulations enter into the kingdom of God." I am not denying any of this. Paul teaches this very fact elsewhere.

But my point, Paul, is that there are other promises and encouragements in the Bible that tend to go unnoticed.

When God told Paul that "I am with you, and no one shall do you harm; for I have many people in this city." He was speaking of real, particular protection. He was speaking to a person. He was referring to a place - Corinth. It would not do for a missionary to take this promise and use it as a certain amulet of protection as he ministers to the modern people of Corinth (assuming that it exists today, though it doesn't). No, we needed to read the promise through Pauline eyes. In the same way, we need to read these Thessalonian promises through Thessalonian eyes.

Yes, this example is extreme, but for that very reason it serves to illustrate just how, I believe, we should take this passage in Thess.

Arguing my case is made doubly difficult, I believe, because you are probably working under wrong assumptions of what Preterists believe or don't believe. You have already three or four times as much as stated things as if I believed them when they were not what I believed. Oh well, I will keep plugging away here because you are respectful and show some signs of interacting with some of what I wrote.

Thank you Tom. I am not trying to put words in your mouth. It is hard to respond because it is too easily misconstrued.

I am only trying to look at this text contextually. I am not trying to bring preconceived ideals into it, yours or mine. I understand your Corinthian example and agree with you.

I do think that the Thessalonians were concerned about persecution, and I do think that Paul addresses it by focusing on the ultimate outcome of Christ's return. I do not think that this text addresses the fall of Jerusalem, though it might. I just don't know how one would know that it does from the text itself.

What I do know from the text is that the "pay back" and "relief" take place when Christ appears in blazing fire . . . on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people . . . this includes you.

Blessings, with apologies for unintentionally misrepresenting your position on the Thessalonian text.

 

[Paul33]

Where did this come from?! I only asked that the text I brought up be considered first. It is very easy to springboards from a problem passage without giving it due consideration.

By all means, the whole Bible is useful and helpful.

Tom, a whole discussion took place on whether one could look at verses 6 and 7 together or just verse 6 by itself. This was wrapped up in admonitions to not bring in any other texts. Something about the springboard approach.

I believe that verses 6 and 7a are explained and defined by verses 7b-10.

 

[asterisktom]

Blessings, with apologies for unintentionally misrepresenting your position on the Thessalonian text.

No problem. You misunderstood, not purposefully misrepresented. I need to take a break for the evening.

Take care.

 

[Paul33]

When God told Paul that "I am with you, and no one shall do you harm; for I have many people in this city." He was speaking of real, particular protection. He was speaking to a person. He was referring to a place - Corinth. It would not do for a missionary to take this promise and use it as a certain amulet of protection as he ministers to the modern people of Corinth (assuming that it exists today, though it doesn't). No, we needed to read the promise through Pauline eyes. In the same way, we need to read these Thessalonian promises through Thessalonian eyes.

Correct. The phrase "for I have many people in this city" explains and defines what Paul meant by "I am with you, and no one shall do you harm."

So also 2 Thess. 1:6-10. The sentence "God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well" is explained and defined by the sentences that follow - "This will happen when . . . He will punish those . . . They will be punished with . . . on that day . . . to be glorified in his holy people . . . This includes you.

Paul defines what he means in both the Corinthian passage and the Thessalonian passage so that there can be no doubt as to what he means in either context. The first has to do with a promise of personal protection; the second with the justice of God at the return of Christ.

 

[asterisktom]

Paul, I almost forgot. I am not sure if you have read my post #219. At any rate I would appreciate that you would respond to the points raised there before I go on,

Thanks.

 

[lastday]

Eagle,
OK, I should have included you along with Paul! Well Done!! You both are better than I
in exposing Tom's utter failure to deal with reality as it affects Believers to this Day!!!

Once more Tom reveals his bankruptcy in focussing on the relevance of Apocalyptic New Testament events in AD 70 that were "literal" but on the irrelevance of Apocalytic events at the End of the Age as if they are just "imagery"!
Quote from Tom:

This judgment already happened. Was there devouring fire from Him? Literally? If not then, why does it seem so strange that it was not literally in AD 70?

Well, well:
This is not a matter that deals with respect; but a matter of treating what is real as
though it is not "literal" if it is "apocalyptic imagery" of New Testament events today!!

There is such a lack of consistency in Tom's interpretations because he cannot allow
the literal Apocalypse of Jesus Christ to occur at any time other that AD 70!!!
Mel

 

[UkuleleMike]

I see a primary issue in the OP, and that is the persecution coming from the Jews against the Thessalonian church. There is nothing in the epistles that makes that claim, and from their location, being in Greece, it seems their chief persecution would have probably been either Romans or Greek pagans.

I understand that this letter was written to the church at Thessalonica, but if it is goof for ALL the churches, then it would make sense that there is both an immediate fulfillment as well as a future fulfillment. I agree that here we see that Jesus will be revealed, or shown openly, when He comes with his angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance-this seems to point to his eventual return to mete out the wrath of God upon the armies of the world invading Jerusalem.

 

[lastday]

UkuleleMike,
You are Welcome to our discussion!
Good point about persecution coming from the Romans!!
Still better point about vengeance upon the armies coming from the FAR EAST!!!
Mel Miller - lastday@lastday.net

 

[asterisktom]

I see a primary issue in the OP, and that is the persecution coming from the Jews against the Thessalonian church. There is nothing in the epistles that makes that claim, and from their location, being in Greece, it seems their chief persecution would have probably been either Romans or Greek pagans.

Welcome to the discussion, Mike.

Please read the appropriate sections in the book of Acts. The persecutions of the Jews against Christians comes up, to some degree or other, in all of the books in the NT except for Ephesians, 2nd and 3rd John, and Philemon.

Thus, knowledge of the persecution and ongoing obstinance of the unpersuaded, unregenerate Jews toward the followers of "the Way", Christians, is often important background in understanding passages.

 

[Eagle]

Eagle,
OK, I should have included you along with Paul! Well Done!!
Mel

Thanks lastday, Mel!

 

[asterisktom]

Thanks lastday, Mel!

I was saddened to see this. I took you for a different sort.

It is not that you disagree with me, but that you seem to be OK with Mel's caustic comments concerning me.

 

[lastday]

Tom,
No one is against you as a person of faith for his personal salvation!
Caustic remarks are necessary because you come across like the Pharisees!!
On your new thread in John 5, I will show how you mimic them in your knowledge!!!
Mel

 

[asterisktom]

Tom,
No one is against you as a person of faith for his personal salvation!
Caustic remarks are necessary because you come across like the Pharisees!!
On your new thread in John 5, I will show how you mimic them in your knowledge!!!
Mel

My caution was to Eagle, not you. At this point, I only get my humor from you.

 

[Logos1]

Welcome Mike

I see a primary issue in the OP, and that is the persecution coming from the Jews against the Thessalonian church. There is nothing in the epistles that makes that claim, and from their location, being in Greece, it seems their chief persecution would have probably been either Romans or Greek pagans.

I understand that this letter was written to the church at Thessalonica, but if it is goof for ALL the churches, then it would make sense that there is both an immediate fulfillment as well as a future fulfillment. I agree that here we see that Jesus will be revealed, or shown openly, when He comes with his angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance-this seems to point to his eventual return to mete out the wrath of God upon the armies of the world invading Jerusalem.

Hello Mike,

Welcome to the boards. Hope you enjoy yourself in here.

On the persecution in Thessalonica if you were just looking at a map it would seem logical to think it was coming from Romans or fellow Greek pagans. However, we are fortunate enough that the bible tells us where it comes from. Just read Acts 17 the first 15 verses and it describes the Jewish persecution.

One last point on Christ’s return with angels and flaming fire—this doesn’t mean literal angels and flaming fire—it is a reference to God (in this case Christ’s) presence. It is a takeoff on similar statements in the Old Testament when God’s presence was said to be manifested by holy ones, chariots, etc. You can see those references in Deut 33:2, Psalms 68:17, and Zechariah 14:5. No one actually saw God’s chariots etc this was a Jewish expression for his presence.

I’d also like to recommend Tom’s articles on Isaiah. He does a good job of demonstrating that the deeper you get into the Old Testament prophets the redemption of Israel spoken of isn’t a return of a literal kingdom similar to Solomon’s glory, but their redemption through Christ.

And, don’t let Lastdays anti-Preterist rantings fool you if we all swung over to his side he would miss us terribly and beg us to argue with him again. He enjoys playing with us.

Enjoy.

“Your understanding of the inspiration of Scripture is utterly astounding!” Mel

Thanks Mel!

 

[lastday]

Lastday

Mike,

You will note the references of Tom and Logos put on a humorous face
to the issue of whether my "anti-Preterist rantings" have any merit!
Note their Denial of a Future Literal Kingdom on Earth:

In Old Testament prophets the redemption of Israel spoken of isn’t
a return of a literal kingdom similar to Solomon’s glory, but their redemption through Christ.

This is their agenda at the expense of denying Jesus "remains in the flesh"!!

Whenever the opposition fails to provide evidence of their view that "all things" of an Apocalyptic fulfillment of Scripture occurred in AD 70, they resort to/substitute humor...and that is offensive to John's declaration that such an attitude is "of the spirit of the Antichrist" in these last days!!!
I John 4:2; 2 John 1:7.
Mel

 

[asterisktom]

This is their agenda at the expense of denying Jesus "remains in the flesh"!!

Mel

"Flesh and blood cannot enter into the kingdom of God"

"My Kingdom is not of this world."

"while we do not look at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen. For the things which are seen are temporary, but the things which are not seen are eternal."

"The Kingdom of God cometh not with observation"

"God is Spirit. They who worship Him must worship in spirit and in truth."

You can believe and draw sustenance from the above wonderful truths.... or you can wait for a visible flesh-and-bones Jesus to set up a visible halfway-house kingdom of sin-haunted sacrifices and clinging death and misery.