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Thessalonian Comfort or Future Coming? 2 Thess. 1

asterisktom

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
From the text, Tom, from the text. You read your theory into the text. Actually, you do not even deal with the text.

I did. Go back to the OP. Go back to post #7. Most of those points I raised there from the text were not answered.

My whole purpose in defining that one word "relief" (ANESIS) is to show the basic essential parts of the definition.

Nowhere in A. Normal everyday usage or B. Biblical usage do we have "relief" being separated by the trouble that made the relief necessary or desirable. Your inherited futurist mindset - the same one I had when I first became a Christian - needs to be first overcome.
 
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lastday

New Member
Now that's a silly little made-up dialog. But it is similar to the interpretation of the Thessalonian's relief.
Tom labels his make-up theories as indeed, they are, just plain "silly".
From:
"That Fellow who missed the aspirin given immediately after and for the pain".
 

asterisktom

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Tom labels his make-up theories as indeed, they are, just plain "silly".
From:
"That Fellow who missed the aspirin given immediately after and for the pain".

Why do you put words in my mouth. By putting quotes around it you make it look as if I wrote that. I wrote "The aspirin is given immediately after and for the pain." (italics added for a little clarity)

Also, I said that my dialog was "silly" not my "theory". I think I know why you do this. It is a tactic of desperation. Let me see how you would like it, Mel. Try this on for size. Mel wrote:

[I have now deleted this quote since my point is now made.]

There. Now how do you feel? I made up a quote from you, just like you did from me.

Well, this is tiresome. If there is something actually substantial here I will gladly respond. Otherwise I will spend my time on other things.
 
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lastday

New Member
Mr. Tom Riggle,
Please give me the exact source for your claimed statement belonging to me!
I did not mean to put words into your mouth; but to show what you implied!!
You resort to this kind of obfuscation and obscuration in most all your posts!!!
Your contrived reference to an alledged quotation by me:
"I am beginning to really appreciate the spiritual insights of the Jehovah's Witnesses".
Your own words:
There. Now how do you feel? I made up a quote from you, just like you did from me. Well, this is tiresome. If there is something actually substantial here I will gladly respond. Otherwise I will spend my time on other things.

Well, Mr. Obstructionist: What was "substantial" about your contrived quote?
Mel Miller
 

asterisktom

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Mr. Tom Riggle,
Please give me the exact source for your claimed statement belonging to me!
I did not mean to put words into your mouth; but to show what you implied!!
Mel Miller

How old are you, Mel? (Rhetorical question) Do you not know what quotes are for? I can't believe you don't. So please be more careful, more honest. I just wanted you to see how it feels.

I have since deleted the quote. Whether you think me a heretic or not I am not fair game to be lied about. When you wrote:
"Tom labels his make-up theories as indeed, they are, just plain "silly"." that is just what you did. You lied.
 
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Eagle

Member
At the end of your quotes you wrote, "Food for thought. "

Well, Eagle, I was looking at this bowl of food that you keep putting in front of me and I notice this big block of wood that I need to deal with first - because it is impossible to eat around it.

You wrote, underlining mine:

"So then, if there is a "great" tribulation to come, and there is, and if there is a millennial 'period' to occur, and there is -- then both MUST precede the 'rapture' and "the end" (1 Cor. 15:24), which are synonymous or parallel here."

Actually, two blocks of wood, the tribulation period also, but I want to especially point you to your bald assertion "if there is a millennial 'period' to occur, and there is".

You take an "if" and make it into an "is"! You assume what you haven't proven - haven't even argued for in the rest of the post. And then you expect me to discuss within that framework.

Fair enough, asterisktom, however, I would say that is the small potatoes in the argument. The main overall thrust is that Christ's return is clearly at the end - as established by the proof texts I cited. The end. Period. Anything yet to be fulfilled from prophecy in God's plans MUST occur before this happens. So, for arguments sake, I will remove the offensive/unproven portions from my statement, which I copy here, from your copy:

"So then, if there is a "great" tribulation to come, and if there is a millennial 'period' to occur -- then both MUST precede the 'rapture' and "the end" (1 Cor. 15:24), which are synonymous or parallel here."
 

lastday

New Member
Lastday

Eagle,
I sense that you struggle, as I do, for keeping a "light spirit" with Tom.
I was asked by rsr to start a new thread since mine is too incendiary.
I wonder if you think it possible to keep balance debating Preterists.
Mel
 

Eagle

Member
There are so many, many proofs that the Thessalonians aren’t being told about a return of Christ thousands of years into the future that the only hard part is knowing where to start. For example:

• They are all dead thousands of years into the future and won’t get any relief from any such future coming no matter what happened then.

• Jesus’ parables all tell us that when he comes he doesn’t take anybody away. He comes and stays. The wedding parables—he doesn’t take the bride away but comes to the bride's location to marry. In Luke 19 when the man returned from the far country he didn’t take anyone away he stayed there and ruled.

• In different places we are told Christ will return in the lifetime of those in his audience. Ex. Mark 9:1

• The bible clearly tells us Christians will still be here after Christ’s return. Romans 13:11-14 Paul tells them to put aside darkness and walk with decency “as in the day” not in promiscuity, quarreling, jealousy, etc. Here he is telling them to act like they will do “in the day” the day being the time after Christ’s return when they will need to live righteous lives. Clearly there will be non-Christian behavior after Christ returns.

“Your understanding of the inspiration of Scripture is utterly astounding!” Mel

Thank you Mel!

Greetings Logos1!

I have been looking for a response to the doctrine I set forth in Post #269. If you understand and agree - let me know. If you disagree, I would like to hear your scriptural response. Thanks.
 

Eagle

Member
Eagle,
I sense that you struggle, as I do, for keeping a "light spirit" with Tom.
I was asked by rsr to start a new thread since mine is too incendiary.
I wonder if you think it possible to keep balance debating Preterists.
Mel

In answer, lastday,

I just think Tom is too sensitive sometimes - of course when you're being bashed from left and right - it might make me that way too! I do not think I struggle any more with him, than I do with other Preterists, or you, at times, or anyone else! I do think that when you said this...

Tom, a believer, is in some sense a very dismissive representative of the Faith!
He has become disdainful of anyone who holds to the Doctrine of Christ!!
He shows contempt for us who uphold Christ's glorified humanity!!!
...that it was over the top, and I guess, incendiary, might be an apt word for it! It isn't necessary for any of us to get carried away at each other, too much. I think we are all good men at heart - y'all just aren't as right as I am - yet! Just kidding! :laugh:
 

asterisktom

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
A relief picture is called in when the current picture is in a real fix. Three men on base and no outs in the bottom of the scoreless ninth inning. If he gets the side out - that is relief.

Oops. Typing too fast here. I meant to write "relief pitcher", not "picture".
 

asterisktom

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Fair enough, asterisktom, however, I would say that is the small potatoes in the argument. The main overall thrust is that Christ's return is clearly at the end - as established by the proof texts I cited. The end. Period. Anything yet to be fulfilled from prophecy in God's plans MUST occur before this happens. So, for arguments sake, I will remove the offensive/unproven portions from my statement, which I copy here, from your copy:

"So then, if there is a "great" tribulation to come, and if there is a millennial 'period' to occur -- then both MUST precede the 'rapture' and "the end" (1 Cor. 15:24), which are synonymous or parallel here."

OK, fair enough, Eagle. Let me go dig up your post and give it a try. But it may have to wait a bit. We have a visitor.

She brought watermelon. It will be a while.
 

Eagle

Member
OK, fair enough, Eagle. Let me go dig up your post and give it a try. But it may have to wait a bit. We have a visitor.

She brought watermelon. It will be a while.

Dude, I LOVE Watermelon, that's right, with a capital W! Now my mouth is watering...
 

lastday

New Member
Lastday

Eagle,
Thank you for explaining how/why you are able to maintain equilibrium.
My opening sentence was incendiary as I feel strongly about doctrine.
I apologize for that sentence; but do not feel I can hold on as you do.
My Quote was:
Tom, a believer, is in some sense a very dismissive representative of the Faith!
He has become disdainful of anyone who holds to the Doctrine of Christ!!
He shows contempt for us who uphold Christ's glorified humanity!!!
I have begun a new Thread called "The Sign of the Son of Man".
I will do my best dealing with the direct views of the Scripture.
Please pray that I may be "fair and balanced" in all responses.
Mel
 

Eagle

Member
Eagle,
Thank you for explaining how/why you are able to maintain equilibrium.
My opening sentence was incendiary as I feel strongly about doctrine.
I apologize for that sentence; but do not feel I can hold on as you do.
My Quote was:

I have begun a new Thread called "The Sign of the Son of Man".
I will do my best dealing with the direct views of the Scripture.
Please pray that I may be "fair and balanced" in all responses.
Mel

Just got done praying for you, lastday, as you requested, and the rest of BB. I really appreciate this forum. I have checked out your new thread - and as usual - you've got my head spinnin'! I will try to sort thru it.
 

asterisktom

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I've been looking at this post of yours, Eagle, and would say that maybe the best way to tackle it would be to comment in various places. I will have more comments below after I go though the sections. The parts of yours I want to especially comment on will be underlined.

The whole point & purpose of Peter's 1st recorded sermon, immediately after "Pentecost" is that Jesus IS the Messiah, Christ, Anointed One, Seed (son) of David, King of Israel, fulfillment of all prophetic scripture -- whom the Jews crucified. And according to Acts 2, Jesus, whom is the heir therefore, to the Davidic covenant, and throne -- is actually seated on that throne right now as we speak, reigning over all things, through, and on behalf of, His Church (Eph. 1). Emphasis in following Bible passages is mine.
Agreed on most of this. I don't want to get into some minor differences.
Act 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

[snipped for length]

Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
Eph 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Eph 1:23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

This 'reigning at the right hand of the Father' shall be, "Until I make thy foes thy footstool." Which thing David stated in Psalm 110:1. Where the King sits is his throne. Jesus is sitting and enthroned, at the right hand of the father. there is no higher or greater seat or throne to be had. A further study of all passages related to Christ's reigning at the right hand will corroborate these facts.
I think I agree with all of this too. I don't quite understand your purpose for stating those throne comments, but I agree.
Now, if we take a look at 1 Cor. 15, the 'Rapture Chapter,' if you will, we find these interesting things:

1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Co 15:24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
1Co 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Co 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
1Co 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
1Co 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Co 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1Co 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1Co 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1Co 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
1Co 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Coupled with your Matthew 24 and I Cor. I would also put I Thess 4:15 - 17.
So then, if there is a "great" tribulation to come, and there is, and if there is a millennial 'period' to occur, and there is -- then both MUST precede the 'rapture' and "the end" (1 Cor. 15:24), which are synonymous or parallel here.
OK, I've already mentioned my problems with these two events, but let me add some other comments as well. We do differ on the timing of these events in 1 Cor. 15. This may need to be handled in a separate thread if you want, but I believe that studying out Paul's OT sources for his exposition here might lead us - it does me - to a different placement of when these things actually happen. But, far as I can see, I agree with your order of events - at least the events we both agree exist.
This meshes perfectly with Jesus direct answer to His disciples direct question in Matthew 24:

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
Lots could be said here in these Matthew passages. I know you didn't quote v.20 but, to me, the "Pray that your flight not be in Sabbath" is a strong indication that this was still in the time of the "fading away" (Heb. 8) of the Old Covenant. More to the point are Christ's references to the Temple, a structure that ceased to be theologically significant or have left any divine significance. After the "Abomination of desolation of AD 70 AD, there was no longer any prophetical purpose for any future temple.
Mat 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
Mat 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
I don't want to dwell on all the ways I see these details differently, but I will add one, and that is that these angels' gathering of the elect from the four winds is nothing less than the growth of the Kingdom as the elect come in from various countries. It ties in very neatly with the passages in Isaiah (59 and 60, I think).

Further corroboration can be provided for the soundness and consistency of this interpretation by looking at:

Heb 12:26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
Heb 12:27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.

The "shaking of all things" is the same as the "dissolving" and the burning up of the STOICHEIA ("rudiments") of 2 Peter. 3, those rudiments being the commandments and ordinances of the Covenant that was passing away, the Jewish religion. All 5 uses of STOICHEIA in the Bible bear this out.
This then, would again be "the end" of the world -- when all physical (made) things are removed. Also, compare the 7th seal and the 7th or "last trump" in Revelation, though admittedly a more complex study, it is none-the-less, perfectly consistent.

Once again, this "end of the age" (AEON) need to be understood in a covenantal, Jewish sense. In a word, we need to define biblical terms according to biblical usage. The "latter days" or "latter times" in the OT were those very times of Messiah in the NT and leading up to 70 AD.
Clearly, this shows us that Christ is reigning, and will reign, on the Throne of David, at the right hand of the Father, until the last enemy (death) is made his footstool, which is accomplished at the 'Rapture,' which occurs at 'The End' of the world.
This, once again, can be further discussed. We do disagree on the timing.
Though this is a brief & concise effort, if it still seems overwhelming, or a bit much to work through, perhaps this question will clarify or simplify, if not too much:

"How can flesh & blood, corruptible (subject to death & decay) beings be 'alive' on the earth, especially alongside incorruptible, changed, resurrected bodies (like unto Christ's resurrected body), AFTER 'death' is conquered and vanquished, which occurs at the rapture?"

Food for thought.

Just like the building of the true temple of Christ's kingdom was invisible and spiritual, so the victory over death is of a nature that is different than most realize. I realize you disagree.
 

lastday

New Member
Lastday

Eagle,
Originally Posted by Tom:
Just like the building of the true temple of Christ's kingdom was invisible
and spiritual, so the victory over death is of a nature that is different
than most realize. I realize you disagree.

IT IS NOT "INVISIBLE NOR ONLY SPIRITUAL":

Paul33:
He has given us the breakthrough needed in dealing with Preterism:

On the thread for Christ's Physical Return, he has scored on Bulls Eye:

Originally Posted by Tom:
OK. I am clear on the fact that you have no difficulties. You would begin to have difficulties
if you realized that you are applying overly-literal fulfillments to spiritual prophecies.
Originally Posted by Paul:
You are extremely literal on these imagery verses, but you are quite stretchy on the word "day".
And you are applying overly-figurative interpretations to literal prophecies.
You are extremely figurative on these prophetic verses, but you are quite literal on the word "day."
Paul has finally UNMASKED and DISARMED Tom of his false View of Scripture:

Tom can's see Jesus gathering the Elect from earth in Mark 13:27!
Nor why the angels literally gather us on four winds in Matt.24:31!!
Nor why the Elect aren't mentioned in Luke 21 when Christ appears!!!

The Elect are not mentioned by Luke because Jesus addresses the Jews!
The Jews will be "jealous and will mourn" when they see us with Jesus!!
They will "beg to escape all these things and to stand before Him"!!!

It is clear why Tom is literal on the word "DAY"!
The Elect will be gathered together above on the DAY He appears!!
The Elect include ALL the Martyrs of Jesus and ALL who survive to the END!!!


This SCENE will be the MOST SPECTACULAR EVENT IN HISTORY!
Tom would "spiritualize" God's great and wonderful Plan!!
God's Plan is Glorious and Real; not Ethereal!!!
Mel
 

Logos1

New Member
Only Mel knows what he’s trying to say in the post above. The rest of us would need the secret decoder ring.

On to simpler and straight forward things.

1 Thessalonians 4 can’t possible be talking about a rapture event since it and Matthew 24 clearly describe the same event.

Look at the object similarity between the two as pointed out by Don Preston in We Shall Meet him in the Air.

Matt 24:29 – 34
Coming of the Son of Man
With the Angels
With the trumpet
Coming in the clouds
Gathering of the redeemed
This generation shall not pass until all these things are fulfilled.

1 Thess 4:13 – 18
Coming of the Son of Man
With the Angels
With the Trumpet
Descend from heaven in the air
Gathering of the redeemed
We who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord.

It is clear that 1 Thess was directly drawn from Matt 24 making them the same event.

And, unless someone wants to tell God he can’t tell time it’s clear he tells us these events will be soon as in the live time of the audience being written to—this clear and evident thought is expressed two different ways in these verses so no one can miss it (present futurists excluded of course).

When his disciples asked him for a sign of the destruction of the temple and end of the age it would make not sense for them to have the Christian age in mind since they were living in the Old Covenant Age and knew it had to end as foretold by the prophets.

“Your understanding of the inspiration of Scripture is utterly astounding!” Mel

Your welcome Mel!
 

lastday

New Member
Lastday

Logos,
Admits the truth; but distorts the timing:
Only Mel knows what he’s trying to say in the post above.
The rest of us would need the secret decoder ring.

On to simpler and straight forward things.

1 Thessalonians 4 can’t possible be talking about a rapture event
since it and Matthew 24 clearly describe the same event.

Of course the two passages are part of the same event on the LAST DAY!
Jesus sets the Rapture/Gathering of all the Elect as occurring on the LAST DAY.
So why do you admit the truth...and then deny that this is the Rapture?
Mark 13:27; Matt.24:31; John 6:38,39,44,54; I Thess.4:13-16.
Mel
 
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Logos1

New Member
Of course the two passages are part of the same event on the LAST DAY!
l

Fascinating.

Mel just extended the Old Covenant through the present and into the future till the supposed end of time. He just wiped out the Christian Age or New Covenant entirely.

This would be funny except now we all have to live under the Mosaic Law according to Mel.

“Your understanding of the inspiration of Scripture is utterly astounding!” Mel

Thank you Mel!
 
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