They do not deserve a *State*

[LadyEagle]

Implying that all Muslims / Palestinians are terrorists is defamation.

By all means, we have been kept in the dark! Please link to all these groups and mosques where Muslim Palestinians have put an end to terrorism and taught their children that Jews aren't pigs!

Look at the Palestinian media:

The final stage of history will be the subjugation of all Christian countries under Islam and the extermination of every single Jew - this according to the PA religious leader during Friday’s Sermon. The Jews are so evil, Ibrahim Mudayris teaches, that they cannot be subjugated like the Christian countries, and therefore the only solution awaiting them is death – literally the extermination of every Jew. In his words: “The day will come and we shall rule America, Britain, we shall rule the entire world, except the Jews.”

http://www.pmw.org.il/

This is recent. This is with the Israeli commitment to disengage from Gaza and implementation of the Road Map. Oh, well, it's only one imam.

Oh, BTW, have the fatwas against America and Jews been rescinded yet? Just wondering.

 

[KenH]

LE,

Someone could probably create a CMW(Christian Media Watch) and list quotes from people who call themselves Christians and make it sound like Christians as a whole are an awful bunch.

Deny it all you want but I think your feelings toward the Palestinians are driven by your wrongheaded dispensational beliefs.

 

[hillclimber]

I wonder if Noah and the other 7 thought their provision on the big boat was a great escape? Jesus is going to call us ambassadors home just like any country does when they're about to declare war, and then God's judgment will begin. Praise God! If we're saved, we're going up! The Lord himself will descend from Heaven with (a most glorious) shout, and the trumpet will sound and we will go up to be with the Lord. How you miss this from Thessalonians is beyond me?

Ken, It takes backbone to flatly declare that "there is no" calling away, but backbone guarantees no truth.

You folks generally have divided the Bible to include the 4 gospels in the new testament, where they are actually the culmination of the old testament. The new plan, which was kept a mystery in the Father, was revealed through the apostle Paul. If you simply accept that premise and look to the Bible for answers to your questions, they are all neatly laid out. Do you believe you are in a covenant relationship with God now? Are you viewing yourselves as spiritual Israel?

Israel as a nation is as far from Christ's redemption now as the darkest African nation.

 

[LadyEagle]

Do you believe that every Palestinian is a terrorist? LE does.

Not true. Not all Palestinians are Muslim - as has been pointed out.

As a matter of fact, about a year ago (I have an excellent memory), she started a thread entitled "All Muslims are terrorists or potential terrorists".

This is quite true. The OP was an article I linked. The reasons given for that statement, as pointed out in the OP, was the what the religion itself teaches.

I continue to refute this defamation as I believe it is born out of ignorance and fear and not reality.

But that is your opinion, Joseph, and is based upon a friendship you had one time with a Muslim. I maintain that when called upon to join the jihad with radical Muslims being in control, moderate Muslims will not remain moderate. They will be either killed or join the jihad as directed by the Quran. If they happen to accept Christ as their Savior, they will no longer be Muslims. But Islam itself is a violent religion - as we have discussed many times. To some, speaking the truth is defamation.

I believe the thread is still in the archives. I am looking for it.

I hope so. Then all will be able to see once again how you twisted around what I posted to serve your ad hominem attacks.

 

[hillclimber]

Originally posted by KenH:
There is no "great escape" as dispensationalists teach, hillclimber.

You are going to be one very surprised, but happy man.

 

[LadyEagle]

hillclimber, please don't stop preaching now! Amen!

 

[LadyEagle]

Since Joseph is searching the archives, this is being moved to the Politics forum, to be fair and not close the thread after a 3-page warning.

LE,
Moderator

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by hillclimber:
How you miss this from Thessalonians is beyond me?

Because I don't buy into the false teaching of dispensationalism. Because I take the Bible as a whole and I don't pick out verses and passages and wrest them from the context of the entire Bible to chisel together an eschatology.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
Since Joseph is searching the archives, this is being moved to the Politics forum, to be fair and not close the thread after a 3-page warning.

LE,
Moderator

Thank you for your fairness. I have quit searching the archives since you concede the fact that you did indeed start the thread and I have no need to prove it. I will momentarily respond to a request by you to post names and articles of Palestinians advocating peace and an end to violence from terrorism.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Implying that all Muslims / Palestinians are terrorists is defamation.

By all means, we have been kept in the dark! Please link to all these groups and mosques where Muslim Palestinians have put an end to terrorism and taught their children that Jews aren't pigs! </font>[/QUOTE]

Such a summit, of course, will not put an end to these violations, but there are still expectations among the Palestinians that life can be better.

Recently, while I was in Abu Dis, I was pleased to meet Palestinians who came from Jenin to exchange products. When I spoke with them, they seemed happy to at least be able to get out of Jenin. They explained how daily life had become not only hard, but impossible, for them. They said they had no energy to continue with such a terrible life. Not one of them wanted to be a shaheed (martyr). Not one said he wanted to commit a suicide bombing. This is what I have usually heard from Palestinians in the past two-and-a-half years. It seems there is goodwill from the Palestinians for peace and life. It seems the Palestinians today have a love of life, rather than a desire to be shaheeds.

Meanwhile, I was shocked to see the images on television of Palestinian children going to the Muqata on the Day of the Child to support Arafat.

The Palestinian president is still talking about shaheeds and he encouraged children to become martyrs by telling them that one shaheed on earth is considered by God as great as 40 shaheeds in heaven. (This statement has not yet been condemned by any organizations for the protection of children.)

It seems Arafat is still encouraging Palestinians to victimize themselves, an attitude that is without logic or ethics. Instead of talking about peace and life, instead of supporting coexistence, instead of fulfilling the consciousness of human beings, Arafat is calling for death. It appears the nearly 2,500 Palestinians and more than 700 Israelis who were killed during this intifada are not enough to fulfill Arafat's political interests. I hope - and am rather sure - that Abu Mazen will not behave in this manner. I also hope that Abu Mazen, with his government, will do his best to put an end to the terror and the violence

Time for the Palestinians to choose life By Bassem Eid

For four years, there has been violence and unmasked hostility between Israeli and Palestinians. Palestinian security forces and Israeli soldiers, who once jointly patrolled the streets of West Bank and Gaza towns, now fight each other. The conflict has taken a heavy toll on human life and on resources, both among Palestinians and Israelis. Israeli authorities and Palestinian organizations estimate the total dead at almost 4,000 and the wounded at more than 32,000.[48] The ailing Palestinian economy has declined 25 percent in 2003[49] while Israel has lost billions of dollars due to recession in the tourism sector and declining investor confidence. When I see cars blown apart by missiles, buses and cafes on the streets of Jerusalem and Tel Aviv destroyed, as well as destruction and death in Gaza and the West Bank, or pictures of grieving mothers and daughters, it is hard to believe that it has been only eleven years since the world celebrated the promise of the Oslo accords. I have problems with Israeli policies in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, but Arafat's leadership for too long has used Israel as an excuse for failure to clean our own house.

Arafat's failed leadership is one factor responsible for the evolution of Palestinian extremism and fundamentalism, as well as a culture of death and despair among the Palestinians. While Clinton feted Arafat at the White House as a peace partner, many of us who worked with or lived under Arafat disagreed, seeing him instead as a man exclusively concerned with power, money, and personal gratification. He heads a dictatorial regime staffed by gangsters.[50] I and increasing numbers of Palestinians also blame U.S. and Israeli officials who, in the wake of the Oslo accords, calculated that a Palestinian dictatorship would make a better negotiating partner than a Palestinian democracy.[51] They were very wrong. When growing pressure in the Palestinian territories forced Arafat to find a scapegoat for his political failure, mismanagement, and economic plunder, he turned his guns toward the Israelis.

Reform and Arafat are like oil and water. Arafat instigates violence to deflect blame for his own corruption. No amount of dialogue or diplomatic dinners will change this fact.

On the positive side, there are still persons who can move the peace-building process ahead. Many Palestinians seek change and welcome democratization and good governance. The Palestinians have the wealth, talent, and skills to carry out major functions for the needed transformation. Young economic leaders could spearhead the process since economic growth and development are fruits of peace. The Palestinian private sector and civil society organizations can be mobilized and empowered in order to foster the democratization process.

With the right support, the Palestinians are capable of leading a real transformation towards a democratic state, one characterized by a separation of powers, the rule of law, a free market economy, and a strong civil society.

America should not be discouraged by what is going on in the Middle East today. Signs of freedom and reform abound. But, Washington must look forward and not revert to the formulas of the past. Palestinians want not only to be freed from Israeli control but also, as importantly, to end the occupation by Arafat and his cronies.

Issam Abu Issa, former chairman of the Palestine International Bank, currently resides in Qatar. He is founder of the Palestinian National Coalition for Democracy and Independence, a Palestinian democratic reform movement.

Issam Abu Issa

These are only a few names of Palestinian (among other Islamic nations) reformers who are speaking out for peace and an end to terror who are mentioned in Natan Sharansky's book which was mentioned earlier in this thread. I may not agree with everything they say, but they certainly are not terrorists who teach their children that Jews are pigs and they certainly don't want to push the Jews into the sea. They want I and what most Israelis want: Peace and an end to terror.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by hillclimber:
I wonder if Noah and the other 7 thought their provision on the big boat was a great escape? Jesus is going to call us ambassadors home just like any country does when they're about to declare war, and then God's judgment will begin. Praise God! If we're saved, we're going up! The Lord himself will descend from Heaven with (a most glorious) shout, and the trumpet will sound and we will go up to be with the Lord. How you miss this from Thessalonians is beyond me?

Interestingly enough, Jesus used this very illustration to describe the end times in his Olivet Discourse:

36"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father. 37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

Matthew 24:36-41

Now, in this passage, who are the ones who were taken away and who were the ones left behind in his illustration of Noah? Was it the evil people of the earth being judged and punished by God, or was it Noah who was saved from the wrath of God?

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
But that is your opinion, Joseph, and is based upon a friendship you had one time with a Muslim.

Actually, it was based on more than that. It was based on my friendship with several Muslims who never condemned me because of my Jewish / Christian heritage. It was based on the evidence that started coming out that there were moderate Muslims in the world that were not willing to allow their religion be defined by those who exploit religion to justify terror and political agendas. It was based on the fact that Muslims started helping Americans find missing soldiers, I believe I heard a report that Muslims helped Americans find Saddam and his sons. It was based on the reality I learned about people living in fear before the fall of the Taliban in Afganistan. Go to the video store sometime and rent the documentary (first movie produced out of Afganistan since the fall of the Taliban) called Osama and I think you will get a good picture of what I am talking about. It was based on some information I learned from Jewish writers who have written strong defenses of the state of Israel, namely Alan Dershowitz and Natan Sharansky. There is more to my change of mind than a friendship with one Muslim.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[LadyEagle]

Joseph, do you have any recent links to writings from Bassem Eid? The article you posted was from 2003.

Also, Issam Abu Issa, the other author you posted does not live in Palestine, but currently resides in Qatar.

What I posted from Palestinian Media Watch was current - within the last 30 days or so.

Additionally, thank you for conceding that I try to be fair.

Question re: end-times prophecy - was there any time in history (other than now) when the Nation of Israel had walls?

 

[TexasSky]

Joseph,

Don't change the subject on me. You posted that praying for the return of Christ was the equivalent of delighting in the destruction of Israel. THAT is what I am taking you to task over.

Do I think EVERY Palestinian is a terrorist?
No.
Do I think the MAJORTY of Palestinians could have STOPPED the nonsense that goes on in their world if they really wanted to? Yes. I do.
Do I have friends who are Muslim?
Yes, I do. They moved out of the region because they couldn't stand for the violence to continue.

Do I think your comments about the 2nd coming are heretitical? Yes I do.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
was there any time in history (other than now) when the Nation of Israel had walls?

Jerusalem had walls in the Old Testament.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by TexasSky:
Do I think your comments about the 2nd coming are heretical? Yes I do.

Are you referring to a comment of Joseph's or do you think that everyone who disagrees with your eschatology is a heretic and bound for Hell?

Joseph is not a heretic. He does not let people get away with posting nonsense.

 

[LadyEagle]

Ken, no flaming please.

Jerusalem had walls, but that wasn't the question.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

From Mr. Eid's human rights organization:

Brothers against brothers – another horrific case

PHRMG is urgently drawing your attention to the killing of 36-year old mentally disordered Mohammad Murshed al-Noubani. In the middle of January 2005 al-Noubani was tortured to death by a group of Palestinian gunmen who claimed to be members of Fatah, the party of the recently elected Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas.

PHRMG has learned from human rights activists in the area of the disgraceful death of al-Noubani, but so far no information has appeared in the media. He was kidnapped from his village Deir Ghassaneh near Ramallah in the West Bank in January by militants of Fatah who accused al-Noubani of being a collaborator with Israel. His hands were tied to his back and he was hung naked to an olive branch. He was tortured sadistically and thereby forced to admit that he was a collaborator with the Israelis. He was beaten severely and the perpetrators extinguished cigarettes on the body of al-Noubani. After the militants tortured him for two days, they left him half dead. Al-Noubani was transferred to hospital, where he passed away.

Al-Noubani left behind a wife, three young children and ailing parents. His family was not only deeply hurt by the death of al-Noubani, but was also disgraced by pamphlets issued by the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades which stated that al-Noubani was accused of being a traitor. However, shortly thereafter the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades issued new pamphlets denying the accusation. Al-Noubani’s kids don’t want to go to school anymore, since they will be seen as children of a traitor. Moreover al-Noubani’s wife is worrying how to prove her husband’s innocence. The family of al-Noubani is refusing to bury his body in an attempt to put pressure on the Palestinian Authority to take action. PHRMG believes it is very important that the accusation of collaboration and torture of al-Noubani is investigated thoroughly that and his name is cleared.

This is however not the first case of killing of collaborators. According to PHRMG’s statistics 99 suspected collaborators have been murdered since the beginning of the Al-Aqsa Intifada. Besides that more than 200 Palestinians have been killed by gunfire by their Palestinian brothers.

Palestinians being murdered by Terrorists...Apparently, Israelis are not the only victims of terrorism in this fear society.

Today, Khaled Wahbeh is free and no longer in prison. He was released in the 15th of this month. Mr.Moussa Arrafat, who was one of the arbitrators of human rights violations, is also no longer chief of Palestinian Military Intelligence. He was dismissed from his duties by the new Palestinian Chairman Mr. Mahmoud Abbas.

One important step in the reforms done by Mr. Mahmoud Abbas is the dismissing of a generation such as Mr. Moussa Arrafat and his likes who violate the Palestinian law and the international human rights standards.

Some good news about positive steps forward being made by Abbas within his government.

further, while the Palestinian human right organization blasts the PA for corruption, they also recognize that Abbas is moving in the right direction. They also show a good sign of freedom of speech. They are talking more freely and a voice besides the voice of terror is being heard:

Although President Mahmoud Abbas (Abu-Mazen) has taken new security measures and made reforms aimed at establishing and improving security in the Palestinian territories, it is still a matter of concern. Civilians in the Palestinian territories are still suffering from corruption and lack of safety and security. Many incidents of corruption have occurred causing tension and confusion in the Palestinian streets. The situation is worsened by the negligence of the authority, which fails to follow up on these shameful incidences and hold the responsible persons accountable.

Corruption in Palestine under the shadow of the new PA

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
Ken, no flaming please.

Jerusalem had walls, but that wasn't the question.

I don't believe Ken was flaming. You asked if Israel at any time in history besides today had walls, and Ken correctly pointed out that they did in the Old Testament. As a matter of fact, there is this whole section where they talk about rebuilding the walls to protect Israel from invaders.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Originally posted by TexasSky:
Joseph,

Don't change the subject on me. You posted that praying for the return of Christ was the equivalent of delighting in the destruction of Israel. THAT is what I am taking you to task over.

Do I think EVERY Palestinian is a terrorist?
No.
Do I think the MAJORTY of Palestinians could have STOPPED the nonsense that goes on in their world if they really wanted to? Yes. I do.
Do I have friends who are Muslim?
Yes, I do. They moved out of the region because they couldn't stand for the violence to continue.

Do I think your comments about the 2nd coming are heretitical? Yes I do.

What you think about me or my comments is irellevant to me. I stand by what I said.

Joseph Botwinick