Thief On The Cross, Thou Shalt Be With Me [Jesus] In Paradise...

[BobRyan]

Agreed, He was in Paradise. Atonement was made on the Cross, not in the Lake of Fire (Hell), and not in Hades.

It was finished.


God bless.

Just not in the actual Bible.

in the actual Bible Paradise is where the throne of God is - (2Cor 12:1-4, Rev 22:1-2) - and Christ said in John 20 he had not been there yet.


and in the actual Bible Atonement includes both the sacrifice of the "Lamb of God" and also the work of Christ as our High Priest - as we see in Lev 16.

Details matter.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Yeshua1]

Just not in the actual Bible.

in the actual Bible Paradise is where the throne of God is - (2Cor 12:1-4, Rev 22:1-2) - and Christ said in John 20 he had not been there yet.


and in the actual Bible Atonement includes both the sacrifice of the "Lamb of God" and also the work of Christ as our High Priest - as we see in Lev 16.

Details matter.

in Christ,

Bob

Rhe Veil was torn in half by God, and jesus os right now interceding as our High priest, and the Spirit Himself intercedes for us in our prayers, so full atonement was done when jesus died and was raised again !

And right now there are the souls of all of the saved in presence of God and his christ, awaiting for the glorification of their physical bodies!

Absent from the body is immediate reunion in presesnce of jesus!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

My friend, Christ died alone. There were none with Him but the Father.

We know when Christ's suffering ended:


John 19:30

King James Version (KJV)

30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.


He did not go to Hell, He was not separated from God in Hades, and He declared His victory over sin and death in those three momentous words. Truly...

...it was finished.


God bless.

Absolutely RIGHT!

Christ died alone.
He did not suffer dying death alone.
Next to Him the thief on the cross was with Him in Paradise in the “Wilderness” of Jesus’ hell in the “Kingdom of My Father”.

Yes, <<<There were none with Him but the Father>>>.
For, for the thief Jesus’ hell was Paradise restored, and for the devil Paradise and the Kingdom of Jesus’ Father became the battlefield of his demise and destruction : Hell! ... and of CHRIST'S "VICTORY IN IT"!

<<<We know when Christ's suffering ended: John 19:30 King James Version (KJV) 30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.>>>

TRUE!
Jesus did not GO to Hell; He CAME FROM, hell --- hell in the flesh and of soul in anxiety “SURPASSING DEATH”.

“God LOOSED THE PAINS OF DEATH” --- of hell --- with death.

Christ's suffering ended: John 19:30, “When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, and had said, IT IS FINISHED, He bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. >>>

That was how, where, and when for Jesus in Suffering of the Passover of Yahweh, hell had ended.

THUS Jesus <<<was not separated from God in Hades, and He declared His victory over sin and death in those three momentous words. Truly...>>> AMEN! Hell for Jesus was over and destroyed.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Just not in the actual Bible.

in the actual Bible Paradise is where the throne of God is - (2Cor 12:1-4, Rev 22:1-2) - and Christ said in John 20 he had not been there yet.


and in the actual Bible Atonement includes both the sacrifice of the "Lamb of God" and also the work of Christ as our High Priest - as we see in Lev 16.

Details matter.

in Christ,

Bob

THIS IS GOD'S TRUTH AND THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST --- BUT PERVERTED.

Because what you write here is the truth, EXCEPT that you MISPLACE IT.

You put it in the future where God had put it in the past;

And you put it in heaven where God had put it on earth.

You make what God had finished, unfinished.

You make what God unconditionally achieved for his Elect, what man conditionally must still achieve for God.

Your 'gospel' is "another gospel", a STRANGE AND SORRY AND PERVERSE caricature of the TRUE.

CRY MY SOUL!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Just not in the actual Bible.

in the actual Bible Paradise is where the throne of God is - (2Cor 12:1-4, Rev 22:1-2) - and Christ said in John 20 he had not been there yet.


and in the actual Bible Atonement includes both the sacrifice of the "Lamb of God" and also the work of Christ as our High Priest - as we see in Lev 16.

Details matter.

in Christ,

Bob

Liar!

Jesus declared, “God raised Christ BY THE GLORY OF THE FATHER” FROM THE DEAD!

“Christ our Lord was declared : THE SON OF GOD WITH POWER BY THE RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD” --- by “the exceeding greatness of God’s Power to the working of his Mighty Strength which He wrought WHEN HE RAISED CHRIST FROM THE DEAD AND RESTED HIM AT HIS OWN RIGHT HAND IN HIS HEAVENLY MAJESTY AND EXALTED HIM FAR ABOVE ALL PRINCIPALITY” --- “RAISING HIM FROM THE DEAD” --- which was in the grave in the rock in the earth of Joseph of Arimathea in the garden where He was crucified on the Mount outside the holy city, Jerusalem, IN JUDEA now Israel in Palestine Galilea in the Mid-East in central Euro-Asia.

... the address of “THE MOST HOLY PLACE HIS NAME WHEN RESTED UP AGAIN” from the dead.

Got it?!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Jesus when He appeared to Mary Magdalene declared His Father, our Father; and His God, our God THROUGH HIM BY HIS HOLY PRESENCE WITH US FOR ETERNITY.

With the words “I have not yet ascended to my Father”, Jesus only meant He had not yet physically ascended into the heavens to where his Father’s Throne is like He forty days later would do.
Meanwhile the Father was with the Son every moment most intimately in Divine Unity even THEN, THERE in the garden, speaking to Mary these words of assurance of GOD’S VERY FATHERLY AND LORDLY PRESENCE with his Own ---with both His Son and his People forevermore.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Rhe Veil was torn in half by God, and jesus os right now interceding as our High priest, and the Spirit Himself intercedes for us in our prayers, so full atonement was done when jesus died and was raised again !

And right now there are the souls of all of the saved in presence of God and his christ, awaiting for the glorification of their physical bodies!

Absent from the body is immediate reunion in presesnce of jesus!

God bless you, brother in Christ, Yeshua1

 

[Darrell C]

Absolutely RIGHT!

Christ died alone.
He did not suffer dying death alone.

He did. The thief played no part in the Suffering of Christ. That he was beside Christ does not include Him in the Work of Christ.

Next to Him the thief on the cross was with Him in Paradise in the “Wilderness” of Jesus’ hell in the “Kingdom of My Father”.

The thief did not die as quickly as Christ, and remained on the Cross after Christ died and went to Hades, where He declared victory. He did not go there as punishment, for Christ payed the penalty of sin through His death...

...not what happened after His death.

He stood as Lord, not one confined to punishment, for that would make death the victor, not Christ.

Yes, <<<There were none with Him but the Father>>>.
For, for the thief Jesus’ hell was Paradise restored, and for the devil Paradise and the Kingdom of Jesus’ Father became the battlefield of his demise and destruction : Hell! ... and of CHRIST'S "VICTORY IN IT"!

Jesus did not have a "Hell."

The Lord had a Cross.

He maintained His Sovereignty as the Son throughout.


John 10:17-18

King James Version (KJV)


17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.


Christ was in no way subject to death, Hell, Sin, nor any power. He willingly veiled His Glory in human flesh, willingly went to the Cross, willingly gave His life on that Cross, and the Third Day...He took that life back.

There was no "Paradise restored," but indeed...Paradise emptied:


Psalm 68:17-19

King James Version (KJV)

17 The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place.

18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the Lord God might dwell among them.

19 Blessed be the Lord, who daily loadeth us with benefits, even the God of our salvation. Selah.

<<<We know when Christ's suffering ended: John 19:30 King James Version (KJV) 30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.>>>

TRUE!
Jesus did not GO to Hell; He CAME FROM, hell --- hell in the flesh and of soul in anxiety “SURPASSING DEATH”.

The Son of God came from Heaven...


John 3:13

King James Version (KJV)

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.


Hell has no known inhabitants, though we do see demons ask "Have you come to torment us before the time."

Hades is where we understand Christ to have gone when He died physically, and He did not go there as a victim, but a Victor.

And while being veiled in human flesh is seen as His humility, and I do believe the cause for the plea "Let this cup pass," that what He came to do might be finished, we need to be careful not to suggest that at any time the Son of God was under the power of an external source. Only the flesh He inhabited can be viewed as weakness in the Lord, for we do see Him tired, hungry, and emotional.

“God LOOSED THE PAINS OF DEATH” --- of hell --- with death.

God loosed the pains of death...with death?

God loosed the pains of Hell...with death?

My friend, there is no such "hell" in the life of Christ. There is no such hell in the death of Christ.

Christ's suffering ended: John 19:30, “When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, and had said, IT IS FINISHED, He bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. >>>

That was how, where, and when for Jesus in Suffering of the Passover of Yahweh, hell had ended.

No, that is when the suffering which arose from having a clear understanding of sin ended.

Only Christ, then and now, truly understood the magnitude of sin in regards to Holy God. Only He could understand the separation between God and man.

And only He, our Great High Priest, could understand the necessity of the Cross. In that agonized plea for the cup to pass from Him, there was the desire to accomplish what He came to do. He wanted to Reconcile man to God.

That is precisely why He came.

THUS Jesus <<<was not separated from God in Hades, and He declared His victory over sin and death in those three momentous words. Truly...>>> AMEN! Hell for Jesus was over and destroyed.

Christ never did, and never will suffer Hell, which is eternal punishment.

The Atonement was completed through the death of the Savior on the Cross. Again, that is why He didn't say "It's almost finished."

Consistently Scripture defines Atonement/Reconciliation as due to His death, the death of the Lord physically:


Ephesians 1:6-8

King James Version (KJV)

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;



Colossians 1:14-21

King James Version (KJV)


14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled


Hebrews 9:12

King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.


Hebrews 13:12

King James Version (KJV)

12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.





The Cross was sufficient, and His death sufficient to sanctify and reconcile man to God.

Again, He did not say, "Almost done," but "It is finished."


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

By the way, Gerhard, just wondering if you know you can enlarge the text by holding control and hitting the + button.


God bless.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

He did. The thief played no part in the Suffering of Christ. That he was beside Christ does not include Him in the Work of Christ.




The thief did not die as quickly as Christ, and remained on the Cross after Christ died and went to Hades, where He declared victory. He did not go there as punishment, for Christ payed the penalty of sin through His death...

...not what happened after His death.

He stood as Lord, not one confined to punishment, for that would make death the victor, not Christ.




Jesus did not have a "Hell."

The Lord had a Cross.

He maintained His Sovereignty as the Son throughout.


John 10:17-18

King James Version (KJV)


17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.


Christ was in no way subject to death, Hell, Sin, nor any power. He willingly veiled His Glory in human flesh, willingly went to the Cross, willingly gave His life on that Cross, and the Third Day...He took that life back.

There was no "Paradise restored," but indeed...Paradise emptied:


Psalm 68:17-19

King James Version (KJV)

17 The chariots of God are twenty thousand, even thousands of angels: the Lord is among them, as in Sinai, in the holy place.

18 Thou hast ascended on high, thou hast led captivity captive: thou hast received gifts for men; yea, for the rebellious also, that the Lord God might dwell among them.

19 Blessed be the Lord, who daily loadeth us with benefits, even the God of our salvation. Selah.






The Son of God came from Heaven...


John 3:13

King James Version (KJV)

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.


Hell has no known inhabitants, though we do see demons ask "Have you come to torment us before the time."

Hades is where we understand Christ to have gone when He died physically, and He did not go there as a victim, but a Victor.

And while being veiled in human flesh is seen as His humility, and I do believe the cause for the plea "Let this cup pass," that what He came to do might be finished, we need to be careful not to suggest that at any time the Son of God was under the power of an external source. Only the flesh He inhabited can be viewed as weakness in the Lord, for we do see Him tired, hungry, and emotional.




God loosed the pains of death...with death?

God loosed the pains of Hell...with death?

My friend, there is no such "hell" in the life of Christ. There is no such hell in the death of Christ.




No, that is when the suffering which arose from having a clear understanding of sin ended.

Only Christ, then and now, truly understood the magnitude of sin in regards to Holy God. Only He could understand the separation between God and man.

And only He, our Great High Priest, could understand the necessity of the Cross. In that agonized plea for the cup to pass from Him, there was the desire to accomplish what He came to do. He wanted to Reconcile man to God.

That is precisely why He came.




Christ never did, and never will suffer Hell, which is eternal punishment.

The Atonement was completed through the death of the Savior on the Cross. Again, that is why He didn't say "It's almost finished."

Consistently Scripture defines Atonement/Reconciliation as due to His death, the death of the Lord physically:


Ephesians 1:6-8

King James Version (KJV)

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;



Colossians 1:14-21

King James Version (KJV)


14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled


Hebrews 9:12

King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.


Hebrews 13:12

King James Version (KJV)

12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.





The Cross was sufficient, and His death sufficient to sanctify and reconcile man to God.

Again, He did not say, "Almost done," but "It is finished."


God bless.

We are on different wavelengths altogether.

 

[Darrell C]

We are on different wavelengths altogether.

This is true. It just requires a Scriptural presentation of Christ going to or being in Hell to show which wavelength is more reasonable.


God bless.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by Darrell C
Agreed, He was in Paradise. Atonement was made on the Cross, not in the Lake of Fire (Hell), and not in Hades.

It was finished.


God bless.

My response -

Just not in the actual Bible.

Paradise:
in the actual Bible Paradise is where the throne of God is - (2Cor 12:1-4, Rev 22:1-2) - and Christ said in John 20 he had not been there yet.


Atonement:
and in the actual Bible Atonement includes both the sacrifice of the "Lamb of God" and also the work of Christ as our High Priest - as we see in Lev 16.

Details matter.

Rhe Veil was torn in half by God, and jesus os right now interceding as our High priest, and the Spirit Himself intercedes for us in our prayers,

True.

And also true that God defines the Atonement of the Bible in Lev 16 -- "The Day of Atonement" showing that it is BOTH the work of Christ as the "atoning sacrifice" and the work of Christ as the High Priest Heb 8:1 that is required for the entire Bible scope of atonement.

Not one or the other -- both according to the actual Bible.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Darrell C]

Originally Posted by Darrell C
Agreed, He was in Paradise. Atonement was made on the Cross, not in the Lake of Fire (Hell), and not in Hades.

It was finished.


God bless.

My response -

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan View Post
Just not in the actual Bible.

Paradise:
in the actual Bible Paradise is where the throne of God is - (2Cor 12:1-4, Rev 22:1-2) - and Christ said in John 20 he had not been there yet.


Atonement:
and in the actual Bible Atonement includes both the sacrifice of the "Lamb of God" and also the work of Christ as our High Priest - as we see in Lev 16.

Details matter.

Agreed, and when the Lord spoke of the place where men were...it was according to the traditional beliefs of Jews.

Both verses using the Word Paradise are used in a specifically Christian context, not a Jewish context. Apart from the Lord's utterance the other two speak of two entirely different places. Paul was caught up to the Third Heaven, whereas the Paradise of Revelation refers to the New Heavens and Earth, not the Third Heaven.

And the fact that Christ states He has not ascended rules out, reasonably, the Third Heaven as being in view. Since the New Heavens and Earth are yet to be made manifest, we can reasonably rule that out as well.

That leaves the traditional Jewish meaning as being the most logical destination of the thief. And when we consider that Christ's ascension would not take place until some forty days later, I see no reason not to view that the Lord went into Sheol and declared His victory.

Additionally, we do not suppose that Sheol was did not allow for the Lord's presence. It is just an opinion but that those in Paradise, that is, Abraham's Bosom (another metaphor for the resting place of the Just), were indeed visited by the Lord Himself. They did not go into the Third Heaven, for before that took place the Lord had to Atone for sin and bring those saints to perfection in regards to their relationship with God.

Originally Posted by Yeshua1 View Post
Rhe Veil was torn in half by God, and jesus os right now interceding as our High priest, and the Spirit Himself intercedes for us in our prayers,

True.

And also true that God defines the Atonement of the Bible in Lev 16 -- "The Day of Atonement" showing that it is BOTH the work of Christ as the "atoning sacrifice" and the work of Christ as the High Priest Heb 8:1 that is required for the entire Bible scope of atonement.

Not one or the other -- both according to the actual Bible.

in Christ,

Bob

That is not what the New Testament teaches on a consistent basis. Atonement for sin was made through the vicarious death of Christ. It is not until Atonement is made that He becomes our Great High Priest, and ministers in that capacity for us as believers.


God bless.

 

[BobRyan]

Agreed, and when the Lord spoke of the place where men were...it was according to the traditional beliefs of Jews.

Both verses using the Word Paradise are used in a specifically Christian context, not a Jewish context. Apart from the Lord's utterance the other two speak of two entirely different places.

Redefining the term every time you find it in the Bible -- is not exegesis ... it is eisegesis.

The term only occurs 3 times - and the combination of them gives us the Bible meaning.

To leave the Bible and ask for man-made-traditions on what the Bible means ... when it only occurs 3 times and it is easy to see what the Bible means - is not exegesis.

Paul was caught up to the Third Heaven, whereas the Paradise of Revelation refers to the New Heavens and Earth, not the Third Heaven.

It is the same place - because as John notes that place comes "down out of heaven to earth" it is the same tree of life, the same Paradise and John points to it moving to earth in Rev 21.

All right there in the Bible.

That leaves the traditional Jewish

No - that leaves the fact that Jesus never promised such a thing.

 

[Yeshua1]

[/I]

My response -







True.

And also true that God defines the Atonement of the Bible in Lev 16 -- "The Day of Atonement" showing that it is BOTH the work of Christ as the "atoning sacrifice" and the work of Christ as the High Priest Heb 8:1 that is required for the entire Bible scope of atonement.

Not one or the other -- both according to the actual Bible.

in Christ,

Bob

It is the Cross of Christ ALONE that established the New Covenant of God, and that was confirmed to us that God raised death from the dead!

Jesus as our High priest, and the sealing by/of the holy Spirit shows us NO Inverstigative judgement remains, as we have right now passed over from spiritual death to spiritual life!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

The big mistake with an 'investigative judgment' now going on 'in heaven', is that Israel's 'feast' of the 'great day of atonement', is seen as a feast in its own right and even more 'important', than the passover, WHILE it is but the mid-years' MINI-passover ---an extra and later and additional feast NEVER 'given' by God to Israel LIKE He gave them the passover as THE ONE AND ONLY eschatological Feast in type of the Messiah Lamb of God Our Passover Jesus Christ.

But the day of atonement is the minor feast fulfilled with and in and through the fulfillment of the passover. NOTHING remains to be fulfilled after Christ had "TAKEN THE BITTER AND WITH A GREAT VOICE DECLARED : IT IS FINISHED !" John 19:28,30.

 

[Darrell C]

Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post
Agreed, and when the Lord spoke of the place where men were...it was according to the traditional beliefs of Jews.

Both verses using the Word Paradise are used in a specifically Christian context, not a Jewish context. Apart from the Lord's utterance the other two speak of two entirely different places.

Redefining the term every time you find it in the Bible -- is not exegesis ... it is eisegesis.

And we can see that proper exegesis keeps the context involved, which context I pointed out.

It is the Bible that defines the word being used, usually right there in the very text.

We know where Christ went:


Psalm 16:10

King James Version (KJV)

10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.


Acts 2:27

King James Version (KJV)

27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.





...so the reasonable conclusion would be that in the context of the Lord's statement...He meant Sheol/Hades which is the same place He showed the Rich Man and Lazarus.

The term only occurs 3 times - and the combination of them gives us the Bible meaning.

So we can equate the word atonement indiscriminately?

How about salvation? Redemption? Kingdoms? Spirits? Baptisms?

How about...regeneration? There's another word only used a couple times.

Do we restrict only one definition to these?

To leave the Bible and ask for man-made-traditions on what the Bible means ... when it only occurs 3 times and it is easy to see what the Bible means - is not exegesis.

No, that would fall into a category of exposition.

The Lord spoke of Hades and confirmed the traditional Jewish belief.

Paul was caught up to the Third Heaven, whereas the Paradise of Revelation refers to the New Heavens and Earth, not the Third Heaven.

It is the same place -

Okay, good point, lol. However, we still do not see a continuity. The Tree of Life was not originally in the Third Heaven, and when the prophecy is fulfilled it will be in the new heavens and earth:


Revelation 22

King James Version (KJV)

22 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

This is a reference to after the Eternal State begins.

because as John notes that place comes "down out of heaven to earth"

But we still do not nullify the Third Heaven because the Lord creates a new physical universe.

So this "paradise" is not the Third Heaven, regardless of where the "Tree of Life" is.

I would also point another discrepancy: in the Eternal State there are two trees mentioned, not one. This opens the door that the Tree of Life referenced in ch.2 may be a reference to God Himself, Who is the source of eternal life. Those found in the eternal state will not sustain eternal life, so we have to admit that our understanding of these two trees is limited at this time.

it is the same tree of life,

You mean trees?

Not sure I would be dogmatic about that.

the same Paradise and John points to it moving to earth in Rev 21.

Again, it is a good point to discuss. But I think you are imposing more into it than the text reveals.

And secondly, it is Hades, not the Third Heaven, that is listed as where Christ was during physical death.

He also said...


John 20:17

King James Version (KJV)

17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

All right there in the Bible.

Yup.

That leaves the traditional Jewish

No - that leaves the fact that Jesus never promised such a thing.

He did to the thief.

At least some of us think so.


God bless.