Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
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This Do, and Thou Shalt Live
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
- Start date
HP: Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
This command is equivilent to Christ telling the Lawyer in regard to keeping the Law of God - Do this and live.
Any attempt to do it brings only frustration and condemnation and that is the whole point of the law to turn them from justification by works to faith in Christ because they CANNOT DO IT.
Such is the case with the text you have chosen? Can any man MAKE a new heart? Can any man MAKE a new spirit? The answer is no! Who can MAKE a new heart and who can MAKE a new spirit? Only the ORIGINAL MAKER of hearts and spirits.
Deut. 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.
Ezek. 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Who must give a new heart and spirit? YOu or God? Who takes away the old heart? You or God?
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: So here is the truth of Scripture from your perspective. Jesus lied to the man for He told him he could enherit eternal life in a manner that was impossible.
Jesus was clearly able to tell this man precisely how he could enter into eternal life. You are not God and you do not know the heart of the life of that man or any other. Jesus did not use a lie to set forth a truth. That is nothing more or less than a product of applying your philosophy to Scripture when the Scripture, even the very words of our Lord, contradict what your philosophy/theology demands.
In conclusion: Biblicist's method of interpretation is this. If the Scriptures contradict ones philosophy or theology, just word it any way your heart desires to show yourself consistent.
Certainly Jesus told him the truth. However, that does not mean he was ABLE to do what the law demanded. The law demands that you cannot fail in one point or you transgress every point and if you fail in one point you do not obtain eternal life but eternal death.
You demonstrate the same ignorance of the Law that the Pharisees embraced. Paul embraced the same ignorance of the law prior to his salvation that you now embrace about the Law. He believed he not only could keep the law but was "blameless" in keeping it! However, after salvation he considered his "blameless" as "dung"!
Neither you or Saul before his salvation understood what the law really demands or you would not even ask the queston "what must I DO to inherit eternal life?" The very question displays utter and pure ignorance as the Law demands "Be ye therefore perfect EVEN AS God IS perfect" and God has never sinned once and never will sin once. Until you understand that is the requirement to be justified for eternal life by the Law you will continue to wallow in your ignorance and still demand that you CAN obtain eternal life by the Law.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Either he told him truth or he He did not. Either what he stated was within the realm of possibilities or it was not. It cannot be and not be at the same time in the same sense. Now that makes sense.:thumbsup:
You simply have no spiritual ability to understand or see the truth do you? What I said passed over your head without comprehension in the least!
The man asked what could he DO and Jesus said IF you DO what the law demands you will obtain eternal life but obviously IF you do not what the Law demands you will not obtain eternal life. He never told him he had the ability to do it but bluntly told the rich young ruler there is "none that is good but one and that is God." Neither the rich young ruler or YOU accept that limitation placed upon all mankind by Christ. If you did you would not ask what YOU CAN DO that is good enough to inherit eternal life.
Do you understand what the law demands to keep it??? No, you don't. If you did you would not ask such a foolish question or keep on asserting such a foolish demand! That very tenanciousness is why both the lawyer and the rich young ruler continued in their lost but religious state and that is exactly what your tenanciousness will do for you. You cannot possibly understand salvation as long as you keep embracing and asserting such a foolish demand.
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: You not only misunderstand the text, but you openly twist it to satisfy the demands of your philosophy. Show us IN THE TEXT the word "IF."
I will let you prove my point! Can anyone obtain eternal life according to Christ's response IF they refuse to keep the law? Answer yes or no! You will answer your own question.
IF something is a condition to receieve something then by the very nature of that condition it depends on whether or not you meet it doesn't it? IF you don't meet it then you do not obtain it!
IF you can be perfect EVEN AS God is perfect you don't need salvation do you? Or does God need salvation? Just because the Bible gives a command in order to obtain an objective does not mean YOU can meet that demand but it may be given to prove you cannot meet that demand and need Christ to meet that demand or need God's abiltity, provision to meet that demand.
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Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
HP: Who said anyone refused to keep the law?? All we know is that he only refused the new light Jesus gave him. Up until that point he could have been completely innocent of all transgression. Jesus certainly did not call him a liar or tell him he had not kept the law from his youth up, did He?
The point is that you read more into this verse than is directly stated. You try and make this verse say something it does not say. There is no 'if' in this verse. :thumbsup:
Jerry Shugart
New Member
I know what a question mark is so please refrain from using so many of them.
And I am talking abnout the logical order.
I am glad that you finally understand this.
According to you the Actual righteousness comes to the elect before his judical righteousness. But if a person already has a righteousness that is Actual then that means that he is already judically righteous so he does not need to believe!
After inventing a second 'life" which is "eternal" you now invent a another "righteousness."
Now we must throw our reason to the wind and imagine that there is a Judical righteousness and there is also an Actual righteousness. According to you the following righteousness which is found "in him" and is received by faith is OT an Actual righteousness
"And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith" (Phil.3:9).
even though this righteouness is imputed to all those who believe to you it is not in regard to Actual righteousnes:
"And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead" (Ro.4:21-24).
According to you this imputed righteousness is not an Actual righteousness at all!
here is EXACTLY how a man receives the Spirit:
"I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?" (Gal.3:2).
Of course you reject this truth because you put the teaching of Calvinism ABOVE what the Scriptures actually say. According to Calvinism a person receives the Spirit BEFORE anyone believes.
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Won't answer a simple question because it exposes your complete ignorance and manipuation of this scripture!
I will ask it again.
If something is conditioned then must not one meet that condition IF they are to receive that something? IF they do not meet that condition will they receive it?
The Lawyer and young man asked what is it they can DO to obtain eternal life. Jesus told them what they must do in order to obtain eternal life. Now, must they do that IF they are going to obtain eternal life? IF they do not do it will they obtain eternal life???
If you can be perfect EVEN AS God is perfect you will not need salvation but can you do that? Jesus commanded us to be perfect EVEN AS God IS perfect did he not? God does not need salvation because he IS perfect. Can you fulfill that command? That is precisely what the law requires to obtain eternal life and all WITHOUT TRUSTING CHRIST because anyone who can be perfect does not need Christ or salvation because he IS perfect.
Jerry Shugart
New Member
Of course the question we are discussing is whether or not a person has the ability to keep it in order to obtain eternal life. And the Calvinists teach that a person does not have the ability:
"From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions" (The Westminster Confession of Faith; VI/4).
However, if a person sins he is declared "guilty" before God:
"Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God" (Ro.3:19).
The word "guilt" means "fact or state of having committed an offense or crime; grave cupability, as for some conscious violation of moral or penal law" (The American College Dictionary).
In order for someone to be declared "guilty" he must be "culpable," and that words means "deserving blame or censure; blameworthy" (Ibid.).
The word "blame" means "to lay the responsibility of on a person" (Ibid.).
If the Calvinists are right and a person comes out of the womb "made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil" then that person is not responsible for any evil acts which he commits because he was made by God in that way.
He is not culpable so therefore he cannot be declared "guilty." However, the Scriptures declare in no uncertain terms that a man is indeed "guilty" when he sins so it is clear that he has the ability to keep God's law.
Again, sin is also by OMMISSION or to "come short of the glory of God"
Do infants who routinely manifest unjustified anger, wrath, deception, stubborness toward those who love them (parents) come short of the glory of God in these things?
From whence do these attitudes originate? Do they originate as fruits of the flesh or the fruit of the Spirit?
If they are not born with such a nature then from whence does it originate? Does God express such a nature? Can such attributes be found in God?
Why is it these things come naturally without training but must be restrained by discipline if such things are not part of the nature they are born with?
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Jerry Shugart
New Member
If it takes a corrupted nature to explain the behavior of children then how do you explain the sin of Adam and ve, neither who were born with a corrupted nature?
"We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time" (Ro.8:22).
The "whole creation" has been groaning due to Adam's sin but that does not mean that people come out of the womb spiritually dead. That idea is ridiculous since the Scriptures declare that we are "wonderfully made":
"I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and WONDERFULLY MADE: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well" (Ps.139:14).
Your teaching makes the Lord Jesus out to be born spiritually dead because if we are born that way then so is He since He was made like us IN EVERY WAY:
"For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people" (Heb.2:17).
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Very simple! Adam chose to sin as the representative of all mankind whereas infants demonstrate the imputation of sin not by personal choice but by NATURE they are born with!
This is complete and willful deception! Christ was made human by Holy Spirit conception without a human father. The sin nature is passed from ADAM as the FATHER of his children rather than through Eve the Mother.
The Geneis 3:15 promise distinguishes Christ as the "seed of the woman" thus denial he was the seed of Adam as Father. It is the father through whom the sin nature is passed down.
Again, sin is also by OMMISSION or to "come short of the glory of God"
Do infants who routinely manifest unjustified anger, wrath, deception, stubborness toward those who love them (parents) come short of the glory of God in these things?
From whence do these attitudes originate? Do they originate as fruits of the flesh or the fruit of the Spirit?
If they are not born with such a nature then from whence does it originate? Does God express such a nature? Can such attributes be found in God?
Why is it these things come naturally without training but must be restrained by discipline if such things are not part of the nature they are born with?
Jerry Shugart
New Member
Of course you cannot even understand the argument. You must make bad behavior a result the fiction that man is born spiritually dead.But you do not understand that your argument falls apart because neither Adam nor Eve were born that way but yet they sinned.
I will not accuse you of being willfully deceptive because I will not question your motives as you do mine.
However, it has alrerady been explained to you that the verse is not speaking of 'how" a person comes into existence:
"For this reason he had to be made like his brothers in every way, in order that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in service to God, and that he might make atonement for the sins of the people" (Heb.2:17).
The words "to be made like" are translated from the Greek word homoioō and that word means "to be made like, liken" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).
Again, this is not speaking of how a person comes into existence. All you are doing is PROVING that you do not believe that the Lord Jesus was made like us IN EVERY WAY despite the evidence to the contrary!
You put the teaching of man above what the Scriptures actually say and so the following verse describes you perfectly:
"Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth" (2 Tim.3:7).
You do not understand that you cannot compare a prefallen Adam to a fallen Adam! You do not understand that a prefallen Adam is the model for dealing with fallen Adam! You cannot understand that a man without a sinful nature cannot be used as the model for a man with a sinful nature.
You do not understand that Adam acted as the representative of all future infants "by one man's offence" they were "made sinners" at the POINT he sinned as this is the grammatical demand of the Aorist verb in Romans 5:15.
You do not understand that infants NATURAL INCLINATION TO SIN by OMMISSION is but the consequence of Adam's sin by Commission!
You still cannot answer the simple question concerning from whence did the anger, hate, stubborness, deception in infants come from? From the fruit of the flesh or the fruit of the Spirit?
You still cannot answer why an infant NATURALLY does evil without training but must be restrained by Parents discipline? From whence does these evil attitudes and actions come from by one who does not intellectually or volitionally know the difference between right and wrong but yet acts contrary to the fruit of the Spirit NATURALLY? If they did not receive it through natural birth where did it come from???
YOU CANNOT ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS and you have not tried. You have simply tried to distract and change the subject and that is why I charged you with willful deception.
Jerry Shugart
New Member
You do not even understand the Greek texts as evidenced by the fact that you said that things spoken of in the "present" tense can be in regard to things that happened in the past as well as to things which will happen in the future.
And in order to maske Paul's words match your mistaken ideas you simply edit what he wrote by adding words which are not there:
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned IN ADAM" (Ro.5:12).
You must edit what Paul wrote and then you deny every single verse which demonstrates that a person becomes spiritually dead as a result of his own sin and not as a result of Adam's sin. Here is just one of them, one that has been given to you many times and the same one which you continue to ignore:
"But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death" (Jas.1:14-15).
both "have sinned" and "be dead" are found in the Aorist tense NOT THE PRESENT TENSE or the FUTURE TENSE!
Straighten Paul out he wrote Romans 5:12 and 1 Cor. 15:21 where Adam and death in regard to all are both mentioned and in a context where Christ is the "last Adam" and he said "All IN Adam DIE"!
Tell me, how does one get "IN" Adam? Is not the same as saying "by one man's offence MANY BE DEAD"? Is not that the same as saying "By one man sin entered into the world and death by sin"? Is not that the same as saying "all have sinned" (Aorist tense) because Paul is speakin of all mankind in a context of their relationship to "one man's offence"?????????
No I don't! Babies die without any WILLFUL SIN but they are still sinners by nature and by practice because they are sinners by OMMISSION - come short of the glory of God and their hate, anger, definance, stubborness, etc., PROVE IT!
Again, you have NEVER answered where did such attitudes and actions come from if not from a sinful nature by birth? Do they originate with the fruit of the Spirit? YOU CANNOT ANSWER THIS QUESTION BECAUSE IT PROVES YOUR WHOLE THEORY WRONG!
Gentlemen, I think we can all agree as Christians that believe is a wonderful thing and you should believe, it will bring you great happiness and joy to your life; but just as belief does not cause regeneration, unbelief does not cancel or annul it. God’s grace is not dependent on your obedience.
Now the truth is very simple.....Belief is a sign of life…it confirms that you have been born again, it is not the cause of regeneration but an effect of it.
Now the truth is very simple.....Belief is a sign of life…it confirms that you have been born again, it is not the cause of regeneration but an effect of it.