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This is an honest question for Calvinists...

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Daniel David, Nov 8, 2002.

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  1. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    Scott, I am not discussing what God does at salvation.

    Obviously that passage is God's promise to do all that is listed. That is all that passage is about. God is only saying what he will do.

    I am talking about the book of Romans. In chapter 1 it says that the lost have darkened hearts. In chapter 10 it says that one must believe in his heart. The gospel is the power of God unto salvation. The heart must believe the gospel to be saved.

    Scott, please stick to the discussion. Thank you.

    [ November 08, 2002, 02:00 PM: Message edited by: Preach the Word ]
     
    #21 Daniel David, Nov 8, 2002
  2. Scott_Bushey

    Scott_Bushey <img src=/scott.jpg>

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    PTW,
    I have been sticking to the discussion. What God does at salvation is how the heart gets light. My point is, based upon the passage in Ezekiel, the "darkened" hearts of the lost, are enlightened by God to believe.........

    Ezek 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
    Ezek 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

    If I am missing something, forgive me.

    [ November 08, 2002, 02:31 PM: Message edited by: Scott_Bushey ]
     
    #22 Scott_Bushey, Nov 8, 2002
  3. Daniel David

    Daniel David New Member

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    Scott, this is exactly what I am talking about. Perhaps I didn't understand your point earlier.

    The "darkened" heart of the lost are in fact enlightened by God to believe. The gospel is in fact the power(not dynamite power) of God unto salvation.

    My whole contention is that the Scripture places the need to believe on the heart. If the heart is darkened (but not dead), then a person really can respond to the proclamation of the Gospel (the command to repent and believe is Christ as Lord and Savior). He cannot do this in and of himself. God must enable him through the power of the gospel. If this is not true, I wonder how the gospel is really the power unto salvation.

    I guess I would also include that since the Bible doesn't explicitly say that one must be born again in order to believe, this makes sense. I don't see where what I am saying violates either the Scriptural revelation or proper systematic theology.
     
    #23 Daniel David, Nov 8, 2002
  4. Scott_Bushey

    Scott_Bushey <img src=/scott.jpg>

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    Scripture may not explicitly say that one must be
    born again to believe, but it does say that one must be born again *before* they can see the kingdom of God.

    When you or I were "Born again".....what occured?
    Did we literally *SEE* the kingdom? No, we saw things that were not literal, but of the spiritual kingdom. The word became, "THE WORD".
    We understood salvation and Gods spirit.

    [ November 08, 2002, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: Scott_Bushey ]
     
    #24 Scott_Bushey, Nov 8, 2002
  5. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    If you do not want to know the truth, consider this post to be Kabul.

    As for your question. With what other part of your humanity do you think you can believe? Belief is of the spirit and not the flesh! Flesh has no capability for belief. If you do not believe in your spirit, you cannot believe! "Spirit" and "heart" refer to the same element of humanity.

    Let me take this one step further. When one is regenerated, it is not the flesh that is regenerated, it is the spirit! That is what Jesus was telling Nichodemus in John 3. As Jesus asked Nichodemus, "You are a teacher and don't know this?"

    Npetreley,
    Even the Spiritually dead have the ability to choose, they, by their rejection of the word, simply do not have the knowledge upon which to make a good choice! "How shall they believe except they hear, how shall they hear without the Word of God?"

    Preach the Word,
    Just what is the "heart of man" if not the spirit? If God regenerated the flesh, every born again Christian would revert to being an infant in the flesh. So, the 'Heart of man' must be 'the spirit of man'. We know of no other part of man that can be the heart.

    Preach the Word,
    The condition of being 'dead' as used to describe the human condition, does not mean no life in it, but rather no 'eternal life' in it. Even evil spirits have life else they could have no influence in and among humanity.

    The Pharoah was not positively dispositioned toward the Children of Israel to begin with, but to have a "defector" return and demand their release did not set well with him. So virtually every sign that God gave the Pharoah simply strengthened his resolve to retain his free labor pool, even to direct confrontation with the one living God. There is more to the picture than spiritual matters. In the 'real world' there are politics, economics, etc. that influence the decisions of man. I said 'real world', because there are so many in the Kingdom of God that do not realize there is, in God's great plan, anything but the Kingdom of God. We must live in this world, but we do not have to be of this world.

    Seigfried,
    The heart of man is spirit. Jesus said, 'God is spirit..." Genesis says man is made in the image of God, therefore man is spirit for God is spirit. The brain is not the spirit, or the "home" of the spirit. The brain is a computer that stores and works with knowledge gained through the bodies sensors, spirit is the computer operator that uses the brain to produce the "essence of the man". The will is the mode of operation the spirit employs to express 'self'. What is 'volition' if not 'will'?

    Finally,
    Belief is of the spirit, the flesh does not have such a capability!
     
    #25 Yelsew, Nov 8, 2002
  6. Rev. G

    Rev. G New Member

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    Roger that. Open bay doors...

    Target A:
    One must believe in the spirit.

    Target B:
    The spirit is regenerated, not the flesh.

    Target C:
    The spiritually dead have the ability to choose...although Targets A&B demonstrate that their spirits are dead and must be regenerated.
    Kabloom.

    Target D:
    Kabloom.

    Target E:
    There is a difference between existence and life. There is no life in Hell, but there is existence.

    Kabloom.

    Rev. G
     
    #26 Rev. G, Nov 9, 2002
  7. Yelsew

    Yelsew Guest

    How do you know? Have you been there?

    All that bombing and you missed the city completely!
     
    #27 Yelsew, Nov 9, 2002
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