You must be able to prove literally if Christ returned as the preterist claim as described in 1 Thessalonians, if it occured then how has a church existed since that time ALL believers would have been taken and unless 144, 000 Jews 12,000 from each tribe were to evangelize during the Tribualtion that Jesus said would come. Daniel's last week of the 70 was to be fulfilled which would last 7 years and during which the abmoniation which makes desolate would be set up or as Jesus said standing and the sacrifices of the Jews would cease for 3 1/2 years. That has not occured and can't be found in scripture. If Jude was written 70 to 90 A.D. then it would be invalid ther church no longer would exist 1 Thessalonians 4 makes it very clear ALL believers would have been snatched out. So you must have literal proof since there seems to be very literal proof that since the Gospel is being propagated and people are still being saved then the Church hasn't ceased and 1 Thessalonians has yet to be fulfilled.
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This just in, Futurists. Nineveh will be destroyed!
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You must be able to prove literally if Christ returned as the preterist claim as described in 1 Thessalonians, if it occured then how has a church existed since that time ALL believers would have been taken and unless 144, 000 Jews 12,000 from each tribe were to evangelize during the Tribualtion that Jesus said would come. Daniel's last week of the 70 was to be fulfilled which would last 7 years and during which the abmoniation which makes desolate would be set up or as Jesus said standing and the sacrifices of the Jews would cease for 3 1/2 years. That has not occured and can't be found in scripture. If Jude was written 70 to 90 A.D. then it would be invalid ther church no longer would exist 1 Thessalonians 4 makes it very clear ALL believers would have been snatched out. So you must have literal proof since there seems to be very literal proof that since the Gospel is being propagated and people are still being saved then the Church hasn't ceased and 1 Thessalonians has yet to be fulfilled.
The J.W.'s claim Christ came back in 1914 (spiritually).
Harold Camping has now claimed that Christ came back on May 21, 2011 (spiritually), but the real return will be in October.
In the Bible Jesus forbids us to set dates. All of these people are wrong, including those who have set a date of 70 A.D.
If you are speaking of a 70 A.D. I am more inclined to take Camping's date than that of 70 A.D. because he has more evidence for a spiritual coming then you do.
It figures that somebody would jump on that word "spiritual" and then purposely confound our position with cultists who misuse the word.
Cheap shot. Who ever is impressed by that is welcome to applaud you.
Date-setting? Assuming your position is true. The day after Christ comes according to your belief you would all be date-setters, because you all would say He came yesterday. You misuse the reason and the concept of date-setting.
Lets think straight, shall we?
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Let's think straight. It is the one question that I have asked over and over again, but have never got an intelligent answer. What evidence do you have that Christ came in 70 A.D. Be truthful. Give an answer that is substantially different than one that Harold Camping et. al. would give.
Alright. I'll give you the same answer I gave whatsisname. There is no evidence - just the Word of God's testimony.
What evidence do you have that we are God's Temple? God's word says so. Is it a real temple? You better believe it.
What evidence do you have of God's Kingdom? God's word says so. Is it a real kingdom? Of course.
What evidence do you have of the Parousia? God's word. Did it happen? God said it would within a generation.
He also said it would be spiritual in nature. That doesn't make me cultic. It is spiritual. The Jews had a hard time with this truth. Many futurists also have a hard time with this truth.
Do you want verses? I will give you many verses.
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No, I just wanted an intelligent answer.
There are many things that happen after the second coming of Christ. You haven't accounted for that.
Do you say that the first "invisible" coming is the rapture?
If so how do you account for all believers after 70 A.D.?
How do you account for the many Scriptures that account for a visible return of Christ? Or do you simply deny that there will be a visible return?
How do you account for all the events that will occur that haven't happened after the return of Christ?
You answered something that I, on second thought, erased. See my other response.
You know, on second thought, just forget it. If you are so dense (although I am convinced that you are not dense - just willfully rude) that you can't tell the difference between my views and that of JWs I can't help you.
Go ask someone else.
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No need to be rude.
One of the basic premises of the futurist is that date-setting is wrong. Jesus said: Not the Son of man, but the Father only knows the time of the coming of the Son of man.
Miller was a Baptist.
Camping is Reformed.
They were or are believers. After Miller failed in two attempts he promised never to set another date. It is unfortunate that a zealous emotional young lady took his former beliefs and turned them into what is now the SDA. He never intended that to happen.
Camping makes excuses, but he is still reformed, a Calvinist. He is sincere, but sincerely wrong.
The main difference is that you calculate things from hindsight; and they also use what is written predict when he is coming. You say he has already come; they say he is coming. Still there is not much difference when you all agree that it is "a spiritual coming."
The main problem that all have is: Where is the evidence? There is none. Anyone can pick a date at random and say that this is when Christ came.
Here is a better scenario. Today we still have some holocaust survivors alive. Think of the atrocities that they went through at that time; the persecution that they faced--probably no greater persecution of Jews was faced by the Jews in their history then at that time when Hitler tried to exterminate them. Then, shortly after, the U.N. declared them a nation, and gave them land in 1948. They officially became a nation once again. If any set of events would fit "the spiritual coming of Christ," it would be then, not in 70 A.D. For then, the Jews began returning to the land. You see I can make a better case for this than you can.
But Christ promised to return physically, where every eye would see him.
He promised to come in the clouds with his holy angels, triumphantly, defeating the armies that opposed him. Such Scripture abounds in the Bible and all of it is ignored. Why?
You are the one that brought up JWs. And chastise me for rudeness?
I read your whole thing and you show no hint of having read what I wrote. Where is the conversation in that?
Was Jesus a JW when he told the Jews that He would raise up the temple in three days? They could have asked Him "Where is the proof?"
Why should I go through the trouble to write in detail when you just ignore what I write - my six questions in post #65 - and then ask me other questions?
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Why did the inspired Paul believe that the return was imminent?
What is your definition of imminent?
For those who think I didn't give an answer in my post above, just drag your cursor over that white space where you expect an answer to be.
Hopefully you will "see" my point.
Hopefully you will "see" my point.
Doesn't make unseable or unfeelable. But with god He makes know the invisible through His Holy Spirit. He also all is done so every knee shall bow and worship Christ. So if it were invisible no knee shall bow except those who were taken.
Your point of course goes against what God's stated purpose is for all the prophetic events. Mainly that every nation, everyone evrywhere will know that He is God and that all will bow down to the Son.
The Testimony of God's Word:
Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. (Revelation 1:7)
Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels. (Mark 8:38)
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; (2 Thessalonians 1:7-9)
This is the testimony of Scripture. They are not apocalyptic. They are factual. And in the last book of the Bible, in the last chapter:
Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book. (Revelation 22:7)
And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. (Revelation 22:12)
He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. (Revelation 22:20)
--And in that last verse is the last prayer of the Bible; John's prayer for Christ to come quickly, come physically and literally; otherwise the prayer would make no sense. The prayer also being made after the destruction of Jerusalem according to all sources I have read--which are many.
1Cor.6:19,20 states that the believer is the temple of God. In a way it takes the place of the temple symbolically of the OT for a place of worship as the OT temple for the Jew.
But that physical temple will someday be rebuilt. All nations will come and worship there for Jesus himself will rule from it. There will be a thousand year reign, the Millennial Kingdom. Preceding that will be a period of Tribulation, the Great Tribulation, in which the Antichrist will defile that Temple. There will be another Temple. The Bible speaks profusely about another literal temple.
The evidence that God gives in the OT, especially.
The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. (Isaiah 11:6)
And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. (Isaiah 11:7)
They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. (Isaiah 11:9)
--There has never been a time in all of history where or when this has happened, but there will be. It will be on this earth. And Christ shall rule. It will be His Kingdom. This earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord. It isn't now!
First, the evidence is here:
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)
Second, "this generation shall not pass away," Generation (GK. genea, means "race, kind, family, breed" The Jewish nation would not pass away til all these things would pass away. In Romans 11:26 it says "So then all Israel shall be saved." It refers to the race of the Jews.
Them emphasis was on a literal coming. That is why it was compared to a thief in the night, quickly, suddenly. "Spiritually" fits none of those concepts. In fact it denies them.
You have to deal with the ones I gave you.
ashleysdad
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Tom, I would like to ask a couple of questions if I may? I am not trying to be argumentative but I would like clarification on a couple things.
1. You (seem to) say that Pauls usage of the word "we" in I Thessalonians 4 shows that he was including himself personally in the "we who are alive and remain", but isn't it common to use words like "we" and "us" without referring to ourselves personally? For instance it is very common to hear historians or teachers when referring to past historical events say "we did this" or "we did that". They are not claiming that they were personally involved but are claiming group involvement on the basis of shared history. For instance when a teacher says "we won the Revolutionary War". They were not personally involved but are associating themselves with the event. Why is it impossible to consider that Paul used the word "we" in this passage in the same way?
2. According to your position the return of Christ has already happened and it was a spiritual event. However, to me this leaves an immense amount of scripture unaccounted for or spiritualized incorrectly. For instance Revelation speaks of the literal casting into Hell of Satan, when did this happen? I Thessalonians referrs to a literal catching up of the entire church. This passage cannot be explained spiritually. The passage makes it clear that this is a physical catching away to a physical place "to meet the Lord in the air". Then there is still the passage that says "every eye shall see Him" This again cannot referr to s spiritual event as eyes cannot see a spiritual event and yet the text is quite clear that every eye shall see Him. I heard somebody say that "every eye" saw Him in the form of the Roman Legion that destroyed Jerusalem, but this is a very weak interpretation. First in that scenario not every eye saw Him. Only the people in the vicinity of Jerusalem saw this event. Not even all the Jews saw this event. Second, Revelation makes it clear that when every eye sees Him they will recognize Him and it will not be a misunderstood appearing but He will appear in power and clearly recognizable. I agree that there is symbolism and spiritual events in all prophesy, but I believe that Preterism goes to far and spiritualizes everything and takes it out of its natural context and meaning.
Like I said, I am not trying to be argumentative or come across as rude. I just wanted to ask a couple of questions.
Thanks
1. You (seem to) say that Pauls usage of the word "we" in I Thessalonians 4 shows that he was including himself personally in the "we who are alive and remain", but isn't it common to use words like "we" and "us" without referring to ourselves personally? For instance it is very common to hear historians or teachers when referring to past historical events say "we did this" or "we did that". They are not claiming that they were personally involved but are claiming group involvement on the basis of shared history. For instance when a teacher says "we won the Revolutionary War". They were not personally involved but are associating themselves with the event. Why is it impossible to consider that Paul used the word "we" in this passage in the same way?
2. According to your position the return of Christ has already happened and it was a spiritual event. However, to me this leaves an immense amount of scripture unaccounted for or spiritualized incorrectly. For instance Revelation speaks of the literal casting into Hell of Satan, when did this happen? I Thessalonians referrs to a literal catching up of the entire church. This passage cannot be explained spiritually. The passage makes it clear that this is a physical catching away to a physical place "to meet the Lord in the air". Then there is still the passage that says "every eye shall see Him" This again cannot referr to s spiritual event as eyes cannot see a spiritual event and yet the text is quite clear that every eye shall see Him. I heard somebody say that "every eye" saw Him in the form of the Roman Legion that destroyed Jerusalem, but this is a very weak interpretation. First in that scenario not every eye saw Him. Only the people in the vicinity of Jerusalem saw this event. Not even all the Jews saw this event. Second, Revelation makes it clear that when every eye sees Him they will recognize Him and it will not be a misunderstood appearing but He will appear in power and clearly recognizable. I agree that there is symbolism and spiritual events in all prophesy, but I believe that Preterism goes to far and spiritualizes everything and takes it out of its natural context and meaning.
Like I said, I am not trying to be argumentative or come across as rude. I just wanted to ask a couple of questions.
Thanks
This after you admitted you can't prove Christ didn't return
You don’t have any intellectual response just a constant, broken refrain of prove it. You have sufficient proof—you just don’t want to accept it. That is your problem not mine. As Tom pointed out you value your system more than scripture.
We know (or at least I do) that the bible is inerrant so when Paul said in 1 Thess 4:14 “we who are still alive at the Lord’s coming” and it was written to the Thessalonians and not to you then that would have to mean Thessalonians were alive when Christ came. No logical way around it. Sorry. Logically you are painted into a corner. That is just the way it is. Your denial won’t change it (but feel free to deny it if it makes you feel better).
We also know Matt 24:3 The disciples asked what is the sign of your coming and the end of the age. See the “and” between these and note these events are linked with one another. Then in ver. 29 Jesus replies Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened etc (reference to the fall of nations, cities, etc---in this case Jerusalem) and they will see the Son of Man coming on the Clouds—which we know from earlier similar scripture Isaiah 19:1 means you don’t see Jesus come in the sky but see his presence in the Roman armies sacking Jerusalem.
So where are we—I can give proof that he did come and you can’t prove he didn’t come. Looks like Preterism is superior to futurism by any normal standard. But don’t let normal standards get in the way of defending your system. After all you make a mockery of the words soon and quickly in reference to Christ’s return by trying to drag them out 2,000 years.
At some point a logical man would say you know maybe I misunderstood the nature of Christ’s return and should look around for another more rational explanation.
You don’t have any intellectual response just a constant, broken refrain of prove it. You have sufficient proof—you just don’t want to accept it. That is your problem not mine. As Tom pointed out you value your system more than scripture.
We know (or at least I do) that the bible is inerrant so when Paul said in 1 Thess 4:14 “we who are still alive at the Lord’s coming” and it was written to the Thessalonians and not to you then that would have to mean Thessalonians were alive when Christ came. No logical way around it. Sorry. Logically you are painted into a corner. That is just the way it is. Your denial won’t change it (but feel free to deny it if it makes you feel better).
We also know Matt 24:3 The disciples asked what is the sign of your coming and the end of the age. See the “and” between these and note these events are linked with one another. Then in ver. 29 Jesus replies Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened etc (reference to the fall of nations, cities, etc---in this case Jerusalem) and they will see the Son of Man coming on the Clouds—which we know from earlier similar scripture Isaiah 19:1 means you don’t see Jesus come in the sky but see his presence in the Roman armies sacking Jerusalem.
So where are we—I can give proof that he did come and you can’t prove he didn’t come. Looks like Preterism is superior to futurism by any normal standard. But don’t let normal standards get in the way of defending your system. After all you make a mockery of the words soon and quickly in reference to Christ’s return by trying to drag them out 2,000 years.
At some point a logical man would say you know maybe I misunderstood the nature of Christ’s return and should look around for another more rational explanation.
Bodies galore and we can now add one more day to the failure of futurism
I guess you are trying to make reference to a rapture event with these bodies all over the place. Well being that God’s not a dispensalist there was no rapture event. There were lots of dead Jewish bodies all over Palestine 67 - 70 AD if you read your history of that period. The bodies came from the fulfillment of the promise that Christ would come in judgment against those persecuting Christians. Estimates range to over a million at Jerusalem alone not to mention all the other places of Jewish massacre throughout the Roman Empire.
The bible foretells this in 2Thess1: 6-8.
6 since it is righteous for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and [to reward] with rest you who are afflicted, along with us. [This will take place] at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with His powerful angels, 8 taking vengeance with flaming fire on those who don't know God and on those who don't obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
Even the flaming fire was literally fulfilled in the burning of Jerusalem.
Hmmm, sounds like literal evidence to me—I guess you are happy now right.
Any rational person seeking truth and not defending the indefensible would give up on a system that has been wrong for 2,000 years. There is wrong and there is tragically wrong and there is so wrong it is laughing stock territory. You have been there a long time now.
Your ignoring the soon, quickly, at hand statements of the bible makes a mockery of the bible when you twist them to mean thousands of years into the future.
revmwc how long do you have to be wrong to give up on a system that is beyond hopeless—2,000 years, 20,000 years, 2 million years, are you still going to pretend it is soon 2 billion years from now.
Futurism—a sad collection of errors, misinterpretations, and broken expectations—making a laughing stock out of its blind followers.
I guess you are trying to make reference to a rapture event with these bodies all over the place. Well being that God’s not a dispensalist there was no rapture event. There were lots of dead Jewish bodies all over Palestine 67 - 70 AD if you read your history of that period. The bodies came from the fulfillment of the promise that Christ would come in judgment against those persecuting Christians. Estimates range to over a million at Jerusalem alone not to mention all the other places of Jewish massacre throughout the Roman Empire.
The bible foretells this in 2Thess1: 6-8.
6 since it is righteous for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and [to reward] with rest you who are afflicted, along with us. [This will take place] at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with His powerful angels, 8 taking vengeance with flaming fire on those who don't know God and on those who don't obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
Even the flaming fire was literally fulfilled in the burning of Jerusalem.
Hmmm, sounds like literal evidence to me—I guess you are happy now right.
Any rational person seeking truth and not defending the indefensible would give up on a system that has been wrong for 2,000 years. There is wrong and there is tragically wrong and there is so wrong it is laughing stock territory. You have been there a long time now.
Your ignoring the soon, quickly, at hand statements of the bible makes a mockery of the bible when you twist them to mean thousands of years into the future.
revmwc how long do you have to be wrong to give up on a system that is beyond hopeless—2,000 years, 20,000 years, 2 million years, are you still going to pretend it is soon 2 billion years from now.
Futurism—a sad collection of errors, misinterpretations, and broken expectations—making a laughing stock out of its blind followers.
Sorry you can't have it both ways.
You say to DHK "We know (or at least I do) that the bible is inerrant so when Paul said in 1 Thess 4:14 “we who are still alive at the Lord’s coming” and it was written to the Thessalonians and not to you then that would have to mean Thessalonians were alive when Christ came. No logical way around it. Sorry. Logically you are painted into a corner. That is just the way it is. Your denial won’t change it (but feel free to deny it if it makes you feel better)."
That would mean the believers at Thessalonica would have gone with Christ when he returned in 70 A.D. that had nothing to do with Jerusalem or Israel.
Then you say here "There were lots of dead Jewish bodies all over Palestine 67 - 70 AD if you read your history of that period. The bodies came from the fulfillment of the promise that Christ would come in judgment against those persecuting Christians."
1 Thessalonians 4:
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
You say in one post the "we" included the Thessalonicans then in another it only involved those who persecuted the Chruch. Where does 1 Thessalonians say that. This would indicate the Chruch went to meet Christ when He returns for her, so if the 70 A.D. happened as you say then those in Asia minor would have gone with Him. Now you seem to say no the "we" doesn't apply so which is it?
Sorry to correct you but there was a time in history that all these animals lived peacefully. In the Garden of course but if you read Genesis 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
31And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Then look at Genesis 9:
2And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.
3Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.
4But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.
Carnivours didn't start eating meat untile after the flood. These paasage throw dispell the evolutionist view of all these flesh eating animlas millions of years ago don't they.
The Isaiah passage just tells us God will reinstute.
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