This Verse Has Been Thrown Around A Lot:

TCGreek · Oct 24, 2007

webdog said:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=42563
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I don't undestand the link! What am I to look for?

skypair · Oct 25, 2007

npetreley said:

:laugh: I only read skypair's posts for amusement these days.
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I'll defer to Alex. Apparently I am getting too far into the "hidden wisdom of God" for some (re: justification-sanctification).

skypair

skypair · Oct 25, 2007

Amy.G said:

All those that the Father gives Jesus will come and won't be cast away. (they will be saved.)

No one can come unless they are drawn by the Father. (these are the ones that believe.)
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This is where you err. God does not "draw" believers -- believers have already "come" else they wouldn't be believers. Your theology would say He draws the "elect" but they aren't actualized as "elect" until they believe.

If you believe that all men are drawn, then you must believe that all men are saved, because those that are drawn will come and will not be cast away.
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Now do you see how God can "draw" all men? All men are NOT believers.

skypair

Rippon · Oct 25, 2007

God the Father draws His elect ones to Christ . The Father gives them to His Son . None of them are lost , it's an impossibility ( Jn.6:39 ) .
The elect are not actualized as elect when they believe . They have always been elect ( before the foundation of the world Eph.1:4;2 Thess.2;13;2 Tim.1:9 ) . Yet it is in the realm of time that the Lord gives them faith and repentance .
The Lord draws all kinds and classes of people to Himself , but He certainly does not draw every person head-for-head . Drawing is always to saving union with the Lord .

npetreley · Oct 25, 2007

skypair said:

I'll defer to Alex. Apparently I am getting too far into the "hidden wisdom of God" for some (re: justification-sanctification).

skypair
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:laugh: :laugh: That was a good one!

Isaiah40:28 · Oct 25, 2007

skypair said:

I'll defer to Alex. Apparently I am getting too far into the "hidden wisdom of God" for some (re: justification-sanctification).

skypair
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Or it's exactly what Alex said:

Alex said:

but in this case I don't believe his construct is accurate, but more importantly it is not necessary in John 6.
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Isaiah40:28 · Oct 25, 2007

Rippon said:

God the Father draws His elect ones to Christ . The Father gives them to His Son . None of them are lost , it's an impossibility ( Jn.6:39 ) .
The elect are not actualized as elect when they believe . They have always been elect ( before the foundation of the world Eph.1:4;2 Thess.2;13;2 Tim.1:9 ) . Yet it is in the realm of time that the Lord gives them faith and repentance .The Lord draws all kinds and classes of people to Himself , but He certainly does not draw every person head-for-head . Drawing is always to saving union with the Lord .
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Glad you responded with that bolded part.

Isaiah40:28 · Oct 25, 2007

Alex Quackenbush said:

Being a former Limited Atonementist and believer of other Calvinisms, I understand sky's eagerness to combat the theology of Calvinism but in this case I don't believe his construct is accurate, but more importantly it is not necessary in John 6.

Most often it is the interpretation of verses 35-50 that Calvinists believe lend weight to their doctrine, particularly that of election. However, the passage itself need not be strained in order to challenge the Calvinist view.

Specifically, our Lord's statement:

Is the source of grief for many due to its misunderstanding. Unfortunately instead of dealing with the context of His words, those hunting for proof texts to fit a theological grid have lifted them from their surroundings and placed them in the midst of their theological edifice (so they believe it to be anyway).

Their method is to first remove and then impose upon the words that which is not present. Take the statement "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him".

What does this mean? Just what it says. It is a testimony by God a declaration by God that man is in need of God's help and direction to find him. God must draw that man, all men. However, beyond what is clear is what others wish to force here and that is the concept that the reality that men must have God's providential draw, His Divine help in coming to Him, is that some how this means God chooses who will and won't be saved. Nothing in the text suggests this at all. Nothing. Zero. It is a conclusion drawn from supposition and not the text. It is an imposition on what is present.

But this is how the Calvinist is taught and exampled; to approach the Bible with such the expectation and demand to find that which supports their system of theology though texts fail to reasonably support it. And in that search any even seeming inference is seized upon and immediately enlisted as an aid to their theology though in reality a verse or passage simply stands indifferent or contrary to Calvinism.

Verse 37 is even more perplexing for some.

Instantly the Calvinist has been programmed to see and accept this automatically means "ELECTION". The first and most obvious question is by-passed, rendering the textual injury to the Calvinist.

To our Lord, Jesus, whom does the Father give? Those that believe on Christ as Savior. Believers are the Father's gift to the Son. Hence, all that the Father gives Him, will certainly come to Him and He (Jesus) will never drive away. Does God give unbelievers to Christ? Of course not, but this obvious question must be asked.

The point here is not election, as some hope in their claim but the certainty salvation in Christ.

And here is where the context is critical. Previous to the passage I quoted is the event. The event of feeding the 5,000 and the subsequent hunt for Jesus. Those looking for Him find Him and our Lord makes it clear:

The context is them wanting a kind of eternal life without truly desiring the truth. The response by them shows this:

This is not about establishing some mysterious doctrine of God only electing certain people to be saved. This is about the spiritual blindness of man in His sinful and fallen state and the nature of redemption. And here it is particularly emphasized because our Lord was dealing with the children of Israel whose claim to salvation was still tied to their national identity and through doctrinal ignorance had gone from understanding the prophecy of the coming Messiah 500 years before to now believing their Jewishness and their religious forms of righteousness could save them.

(Bible quotes from the NIV)
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I may not have time to fully respond to this post, Alex.
But I must say, I'm really disappointed that you too fall into the rhetoric all too common with the non-Calvinists.
To say, that Calvinists are "programmed" to see certain things or that we "hunt around for proof texts to fit into our theological grid" is so unjust.
Those kind of generalizations are unhelpful in any discussion.

Alex Quackenbush · Oct 25, 2007

Isaiah40:28 said:

I may not have time to fully respond to this post, Alex.
But I must say, I'm really disappointed that you too fall into the rhetoric all too common with the non-Calvinists.
To say, that Calvinists are "programmed" to see certain things or that we "hunt around for proof texts to fit into our theological grid" is so unjust.
Those kind of generalizations are unhelpful in any discussion.
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While unhelpful in discovering the text itself, I find such pointed comments necessary from time to time when, particularly if I feel it is true and a trend significantly manifested. However, since it was already made here I find the point made and no need to belabor it so, with your pardon and my recognition of your valid protest, may we move forward in the discussion? I am traveling this weekend so my responses won't be timely.
Q

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