Thithe vs offering part II

[Salty]

There has been quite a discussion about Tithe vs Offering in another thread.
This one will have a poll

Note: You may give multiple answers in this poll!!

 

[Salty]

Someone answered "other"

Please explain

 

[Grasshopper]

Where does the NT require tithing.

 

[Jim1999]

Whether the NT teaches tithing or not, it is minimal in that Jesus gave His all. One thin dime out of a dollar! Secular charities ask for more than that, and often get it.

The tithing church is seldom seen in need of finances to minister the word, unless they are squandering the Lord's funds.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[AresMan]

Where does the NT require tithing.

If it did, then NNE obeys it. 10% of one's monetary income is NOWHERE found in the Bible, and is not the tithe of the Bible.

 

[AresMan]

One thin dime out of a dollar!

This is not the tithe of the Bible.

No one ever tithed of his monetary income.
No one ever tithed of income at all.
No one ever tithed to a church.

Why, Oh, why can't people just sit down and read ALL the passages in the Bible that have to do with tithing, instead of just propagating a tradition?

Here they are, in case anyone is interested:

Genesis 14
Genesis 28
Leviticus 27
Numbers 18
Deuteronomy 12
Deuteronomy 14
Deuteronomy 26
2 Chronicles 31
Nehemiah 10
Nehemiah 13
Amos 4:4
Malachi 1-4 (the whole book for context)
Matthew 23:23
Luke 11:42
Luke 18:9-14
Hebrews 7


Here are some passages that are mistakenly used for "tithing" that do not explicitly mention it:

1 Corinthians 9:14
1 Timothy 5:17-18

1 Corinthians 16:1-2
context:
Acts 11:27-30
Romans 15:24-33
1 Corinthians 16:1-8
2 Corinthians 9

 

[Jim1999]

I wonder if those who oppose giving ten percent to the church are the one's that put a thrupence in the plate cos it makes a noise!

It does not matter if tithing is not as taught in scripture. It is what our churches established years ago as a reasonable way to support ministry.

You think some of us never read scripture? We understand the biblical tithe. We also understand the Jesus gave His all, and giving back the "tithe" is minimal.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Salty]

I wonder if those who oppose giving ten percent to the church are the one's that put a thrupence in the plate cos it makes a noise! ...

Jim

Jim, I don't think anyone is opposed to giving 10%.

It would be the same as saying you must be baptized. Well, you don't need to be - to be saved - but the Lord expects you to follow thur when possible. (not the best analogy -but the first one I thought of - well it is 2300 hrs!)

 

[AresMan]

I wonder if those who oppose giving ten percent to the church are the one's that put a thrupence in the plate cos it makes a noise!

I do not oppose giving ten percent of one's income to the church. This is a good thing. I simply object to taking Scripture out of context to make people feel guilty or obligated to do something that the Bible never says in any way. I believe in Sola Scriptura for doctrine, not traditions, not pragmatism.

It does not matter if tithing is not as taught in scripture. It is what our churches established years ago as a reasonable way to support ministry.

Do you believe in Sola Scriptura? Or are you Catholic and believe that church traditions are a leg to the stool of God's revelation?

You think some of us never read scripture? We understand the biblical tithe.

Please show your idea of the tithe from Scripture. Then, we can have a meaningful debate over them.

We also understand the Jesus gave His all, and giving back the "tithe" is minimal.

Jesus did give His all. He gave His life. The second part of your statement is your opinion, unless you are going to back it up with Scripture, in which case we can then have a meaningful debate over what the Scriptures say.

 

[SaggyWoman]

I think the NT teaches cheerful giving. If your giving doesn't make you want to scream out with cheer, then don't give.

 

[Darrenss1]

I wonder if those who oppose giving ten percent to the church are the one's that put a thrupence in the plate cos it makes a noise!

It does not matter if tithing is not as taught in scripture. It is what our churches established years ago as a reasonable way to support ministry.

You think some of us never read scripture? We understand the biblical tithe. We also understand the Jesus gave His all, and giving back the "tithe" is minimal.

Cheers,

Jim

You are arguing apples vs oranges. You said for a person to give any offering that comes on top of the 10%, they are required to give first. You are simply blurring the issue of the biblical support for christians tithing by using reason rather than what the bible teaches. You said Jesus gave His all. And? What has that got to do with showing from scripture that tithing was for the NT church/christian? You said we should look at the system churches used to support ministry? So? That is not any argument to support christian NT church tithes from a biblical standpoint.

Its almost like freewill offerings are a completely irrelevant topic and tithing has to be forced in its place theologically because freewill offerings can't be legistlatedly enforced, so christians fall back on tithing because they feel that christians will not give unless they are enforced by rules and regulations. If christians have to give out of guilt then they bound to give out of guilt all the time and the moment guilt is removed they won't give. I have never heard tithing preached without being enforced and implemented with the certainty of punishment for non compliance. And the whole issue of freewill offerings gets put in the background because it seems to be made almost redundant for those whom speak of tithing.

Why is it that 10% of ones income given HAS to be called a "tithe" its like the law of the christian land and its almost blasphemy to call an offering of a tenth a freewill offering. Makes me laugh. Terminology rules the land.

Darren

 

[Salty]

I think the NT teaches cheerful giving. If your giving doesn't make you want to scream out with cheer, then don't give.

Saggy, as usual, I was rushing to do the poll, and actually, "cheerful" was probably the word I was looking for!

Salty

 

[christianasbookshelf]

It does not matter if tithing is not as taught in scripture. It is what our churches established years ago as a reasonable way to support ministry.


Cheers,

Jim

Hi Jim, I think you have to be very careful. I've been saved for over 20 years and have been in fundamental Baptist churches that entire time. I've never once heard a sermon, or even a comment, about the tithe being a church tradition. It's ALWAYS preached as a biblical truth. That being the case, it must have biblical support.

So, yes, in every case I've ever heard it does matter of it's taught in Scripture, because teaching tithing claim it to be so. God bless you.

Paul

 

[Allan]

The tithe is the basic principle or concept of our giving to the Lord, and our giving is used for maintance and ministry of the church or other churches as the Lord leads.

The NT doesn't specifically address tithing as it would have been the most commonly understood giving by the Jews who were used to giving MUCH more than that under the Law (there were many types of tithes givin). However if you look at the paying of the pastors in the NT, you will find that it is linked with the OT tithe that took care of the priests. This is just one point of a many that can be seen where the principle of consistant giving (tithing) as well as the caring for those who devote themselves to the Lord and His word and maintenance of the worship house, is found linked to and/or specifically involved in the tithing of the OT.

Now since it is a principle and not necessarily something commanded to do because it is to be done not out of resentful duty but a joyful heart. Thus it is important to understand what the principle is all about and not simply the amount by which the name tithe is derived.

 

[drfuss]

I think the NT teaches cheerful giving. If your giving doesn't make you want to scream out with cheer, then don't give.

I agree. There are many Christian opportunities and organizations that you can cheerfully give to. If you can not find an opportunity to cheerfully give, then you really don't want to give.

 

[Allan]

I agree. There are many Christian opportunities and organizations that you can cheerfully give to. If you can not find an opportunity to cheerfully give, then you really don't want to give.

Good point.

 

[AresMan]

[1]The tithe is the basic principle or concept of our giving to the Lord, and [2]our giving is used for maintance and ministry of the church or other churches as the Lord leads.

I agree with the second part. Please prove the first part with Scripture.

The NT doesn't specifically address tithing as it would have been the most commonly understood giving by the Jews who were used to giving MUCH more than that under the Law (there were many types of tithes givin).

The Jews did not "give" tithes to the church. The Jews under the Law who were landowners were required to tithe the tenth count of every crop and animal that came from the annual increase of the harvest. Remember that only every third year did they actually give their tithe away. Every other year they ate their own tithe in an annual feast in Jerusalem. The Jewish landowners under the Law continued to obey the tithe laws with their harvest until the destruction of the temple in A.D. 70, AND they gave whatever they could (money, food, medicine, etc.) for church ministry. These actions were completely separate and unrelated to each other. The Gentile believers did not follow the Jewish tithe laws (unless the Judaizers got to them). The tithe laws never served as a "model" for one's "freewill" giving, and they never had one iota to do with one's monetary income.

However if you look at the paying of the pastors in the NT, you will find that it is linked with the OT tithe that took care of the priests.

No. The Bible never links it with the tithe, per se.

1Co 9:7 [1]Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? [2]who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or [3]who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
1Co 9:8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?
1Co 9:9 For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
1Co 9:10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that [4]he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that [5]he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
1Co 9:11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
1Co 9:12 If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.
1Co 9:13 Do ye not know that [6]they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and [7]they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?
1Co 9:14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that [8]they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

All eight of the numbered statements are parallel truths to illustrate a point that Paul references from the law ("thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn"). The principle is that those who labor in an endeavor should expect just compensation from that same endeavor.

Notice also that vv.13-14 never mention the tithe, only that those who ministered in the temple partook of the things that were brought to the temple. The point is sowing and reaping, not the tithe.

If you are going to say that "even so" implies the tithe (and not simply the principle of sowing and reaping from all eight parallels), then you MUST trace it to its full conclusion.
"EVEN SO" would imply that gospel missionaries receive their food from the same exact temple and altar that the priests and Levites did.
"EVEN SO" would imply that they receive their sustenance from what was brought into the temple, namely the third-year tithes.
"EVEN SO" would imply that Christians today would have to follow the tithing laws and the seven-year cycle. Christian landowners would have to live in the borders of the Promised Land, and at the end of every three years count the tenth of every crop and animal at the end of the harvest and bring these to the Levitical cities. The Levites would then bring the best tenth of all this into the temple storehouse chambers with the priests' supervision. Only the tenth of all third-year tithes would find its way into the temple.

Also, find any and all instances in the New Testament where "preach[ing] the gospel" is found in any form. The action ALWAYS has to do with mission work, NOT church elders who edify the saints. Paul was speaking of himself, and he was a missionary, not a church elder. The church elders' compensation is addressed in 1 Timothy 5:17-18.

This is just one point of a many that can be seen where the principle of consistant giving (tithing) as well as the caring for those who devote themselves to the Lord and His word and maintenance of the worship house, is found linked to and/or specifically involved in the tithing of the OT.

Constant giving does not have to be "tithing" and nowhere in Scripture is tithing ever from one's monetary income. NT giving never implies any kind of link to the OT tithe laws and there is no possible correlation. OT tithing and NT giving are two completely and unequivocally different subjects. There is no link between the two. One is not a model for the other. One does not even succeed the other. They are just plain not even in the same ball park as subjects of the Scripture.

Now since it is a principle and not necessarily something commanded to do because it is to be done not out of resentful duty but a joyful heart. Thus it is important to understand what the principle is all about and not simply the amount by which the name tithe is derived.

I agree that tithing is not commanded. If it were NNE here has EVER obeyed it. It is also not a "principle" either.

The principles of NT giving are cheerfulness, humility, generosity, and sowing and reaping.

NT giving and gospel ministry has nothing to do with the agricultural tax and welfare system in the Law for the theocratic nation of Israel. There is no amount or percentage threshold conceptually/principally/suggestibly/obligatory. The threshold is the list that I gave above.

 

[Allan]

I agree with the second part. Please prove the first part with Scripture.

You do understand what a 'principle' both is and means, right?

The Jews did not "give" tithes to the church. The Jews under the Law who were landowners were required to tithe the tenth count of every crop and animal that came from the annual increase of the harvest.

Again, you do know that there is more than one type of tithe required of the Jewish people? The tithing they were to do was to not only set up the example but prove that God is their provider and not due to their great ability or lack thereof.

The Gentile believers did not follow the Jewish tithe laws (unless the Judaizers got to them).

No one said they did. But you must also remember that even the pagan both understood and gave a least a tithe in their religious observances. Thus it was something that was universally seen as simple example of one homage to ones gods/God to give in this 'basic' manner.

The tithe laws never served as a "model" for one's "freewill" giving, and they never had one iota to do with one's monetary income.

Great, the I presume you can prove this point from scripture.
With respect to the 'monetary income' many scholars historically and currently disagree with you. Why? Because the system set up did in fact depend on the amount of assets one had or that one had aquired. Those assets as well as their money were used to detemine a persons wealth which is in fact defined as 'monetary'.

No. The Bible never links it with the tithe, per se.

So you concede it can not be specifically denied?

All eight of the numbered statements are parallel truths to illustrate a point that Paul references from the law ("thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn"). The principle is that those who labor in an endeavor should expect just compensation from that same endeavor.

Yes, true. But here is the rub, from where did their payment/compensation come from, in which the 'principle' is derived? Is it not the... Tithe

Notice also that vv.13-14 never mention the tithe, only that those who ministered in the temple partook of the things that were brought to the temple. The point is sowing and reaping, not the tithe.

It doesn't have to specifically mention the tithe as it references the very application of the paying or compensating the minister from the very point of the OT tithe law.

If you are going to say that "even so" implies the tithe (and not simply the principle of sowing and reaping from all eight parallels), then you MUST trace it to its full conclusion.

What?

"EVEN SO" would imply that gospel missionaries receive their food from the same exact temple and altar that the priests and Levites did.

No, your line of reasoning is faulty, because the Temple has been moved and is now known to be the very gathering of the saints
So here as in other places you are arguing against the OT Law of Tithe and no else is saying we are under the OT Law of tithing.

"EVEN SO" would imply that they receive their sustenance from what was brought into the temple, namely the third-year tithes.

No, they receive more than that more often than that. They recieved 1 tenth of the tithes brought, and ate of those things brought, etc... However, this is where you keep messing youself up. You are speaking of keeping the Law of tithing but I am not nor is anyone else that I can see.

"EVEN SO" would imply that Christians today would have to follow the tithing laws and the seven-year cycle. Christian landowners would have to live in the borders of the Promised Land, and at the end of every three years count the tenth of every crop and animal at the end of the harvest and bring these to the Levitical cities. The Levites would then bring the best tenth of all this into the temple storehouse chambers with the priests' supervision. Only the tenth of all third-year tithes would find its way into the temple.

Agian, you built a great scarecrow but that is about all it is. You keep trying to build a case under the maintianing of OT Law of the Tithe but no one else is saying this. If they were then you would have good case but as it happens it is tant amount to nothing in relation to my point.

Also remember there is more than one tithe in the Law that the Jewish people were to obey and not just landowners.

Also, find any and all instances in the New Testament where "preach[ing] the gospel" is found in any form. The action ALWAYS has to do with mission work, NOT church elders who edify the saints. Paul was speaking of himself, and he was a missionary, not a church elder. The church elders' compensation is addressed in 1 Timothy 5:17-18.

First, I think you need to reread that passage. Paul is not speaking only of missionaries like you claim but in fact context bears out that he is speaking 'all' who minister the word as seen in verse 7, 10 and 12 as well as 13 but he is using himself as the focal example.

Constant giving does not have to be "tithing" and nowhere in Scripture is tithing ever from one's monetary income.

First, I never said that consistant giving 'had to be tithing', I said that tithing was the/a principle of consistant giving.
Secondly you apparently don't understand that monetary income is determined not by wealth of coins and gold only but is determined by both possesions AND currency and they were viewed as one and the same.

NT giving never implies any kind of link to the OT tithe laws and there is no possible correlation.

You just stated differently earlier about the passage I brought up with respect to paying ministers of the Word of God.

OT tithing and NT giving are two completely and unequivocally different subjects. There is no link between the two.

Again, the very passage I stated shows a link and can not be denied no matter how many times you say the above. However the link is not that we are under the Law but that the principle that governed that Law still exists.

One is not a model for the other. One does not even succeed the other. They are just plain not even in the same ball park as subjects of the Scripture.

Then I would suggest a little more study on this subject, but that is just me.

The principles of NT giving are cheerfulness, humility, generosity, and sowing and reaping.

All of which are also noted to be under the Law as well.

NT giving and gospel ministry has nothing to do with the agricultural tax and welfare system in the Law for the theocratic nation of Israel.

Here is where you show very little understanding of what the Tithe was. It was not and can not be claimed, in any exegetical sense to be 'tax'. God did not use it as a Tax nor is it ever refered to as a tax. Let's at least get that part right.

There is no amount or percentage threshold conceptually/principally/suggestibly/obligatory. The threshold is the list that I gave above.

I can say you are 2000 years old but no matter how much I say, it will never make it any more truth than the first time.
You gave no list but what you gave is the very basis for Pauls argument for receiving material things. But one can admit on either side there that person who milks that cow can not survive on a swallow of milk a day, nor can the vinedresser survive on 'a' grape a day. There is a consistancy to what is to be given as well as basic understanding of what is needful. IOW - a basic understood minimum for the basics of the work being done. So your 'list' is not contextually what you made it out to be.