Luke, the logical conclusion to Calvinism is hyper-Calvinism. What is the need to pray for a lost friend of family member? What is the need to continue to carry out the Great Commission? What is the need to invite someone to your church? After all, God has chosen who will be saved and not saved. The elect ultimately have no choice as to their disposition. Certainly, this is not the way most Calvinist believe and it is insulting to them to even suggest this. So what makes it right for you to accuse Winman of "open theism" when you know that is not the way he believes. In short, it appears you have accused him of heresy. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.
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Those in hell for Arminianism and Calvinism
- Thread starter Nicholas25
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That is ridiculous, if God can see the future then he can easily see anyone who freely chooses Christ and could elect them. And this is exactly the position many like myself believe.
You limit God when you say he cannot see a free decision.
He is not just Alpha, he is also Omega the end. He can not only see forward in time, he can see back in time from the end.
Hindsight is 20/20.
That's a great question. I'll answer it and ask you one.
The need to pray is that God commands us to. God DOES answer prayer. He ordains both that we pray and that he answers the prayer so that he might be good to us and glorify himself.
Now, in your system, why pray? God WILL not override their free will. AND God WILL not draw one more than the other. AND God is ALREADY doing ALL that he can to save EVERYONE.
What good is your prayer?
For his glory. That his name be published and magnified. That it the BEST motive.
AND because God saves men by them hearing the Gospel. He saves his elect by getting them the Gospel.
You and I have an awesome PRIVILEGE to participate in this PHENOMENAL endeavor.
They make choices everyday. Calvinists believe in choice.
I didn't accuse winman of open theism. I said his remark is open theism. It is. I provided proof from the mouth of an open theist. What more do you want?
I noticed as usual you avoided MOST of the post.
The Word of God CLEARLY says you are wrong.
preacher4truth
Active Member
Amen. And on many occasions.
I'm glad my God knows all, and is not limited to my finite definition that He doesn't know all until it happens.
Also, great points you've made to sag38 Luke. I add we preach because we are commanded to preach the Gospel. I might add this too: "For if I preach the Gospel, I have nothing to boast of, for I am under compulsion: for woe is unto me if I do not preach the gospel." 1 Corinthians 9:16. I wonder who gave this burden to Paul, and to us?
Also; "Remember Jesus Christ, risen from the dead, descendant of David, according to my gospel, for which I suffer hardship even to imprisonment as a criminal; but the word of God is not imprisoned. For this cause I endure all things for the sake of those chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory." 2 Timothy 2:8-10.
It is clearly seen he is compelled to preach it, and to suffer for doing so, for the sake of who? For the chosen of God. I see nothing in the Scriptures showing that believing the elect are chosen, seeing that God has done this and is Sovereign over His choice to do all the choosing Himself, that it then limits preaching the Gospel, but the rather, it is clearly seen that it causes us to preach it with great zeal and compulsion.
:thumbsup:
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psalms109:31
Active Member
Romans 10
Romans 10 tell us we are not just commanded to go, but it is necessary and we do make a difference.
James 5:
The Prayer of Faith
13 Is anyone among you in trouble? Let them pray. Is anyone happy? Let them sing songs of praise. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.
17 Elijah was a human being, even as we are. He prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the land for three and a half years. 18 Again he prayed, and the heavens gave rain, and the earth produced its crops.
19 My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, 20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.
Romans 10 tell us we are not just commanded to go, but it is necessary and we do make a difference.
James 5:
The Prayer of Faith
13 Is anyone among you in trouble? Let them pray. Is anyone happy? Let them sing songs of praise. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.
17 Elijah was a human being, even as we are. He prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the land for three and a half years. 18 Again he prayed, and the heavens gave rain, and the earth produced its crops.
19 My brothers and sisters, if one of you should wander from the truth and someone should bring that person back, 20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.
Robert Snow
New Member
This statement is too simplistic. A person goes to hell because they refuse to accept the payment Jesus Christ made to pay the price for their sin. Therefore their sin remains.
If someone comes to turn my electricity off because of non-payment, they will demand I pay the price in order to keep them form completing their job. If my wife has left the money to pay it, yet I don't utilize what she has done, my power will be shut off. It doesn't matter to the serviceman that the money is available to me if I don't give it to him. This is a crude analogy, but maybe it explains it somewhat.
The illustration misses the point of sin.
Sin is an infraction of law.
The money paid is not to maintain some service but to pay a fine for a crime.
A better illustration would be if you have broken some law and must go to jail or pay a fine.
If you cannot pay the fine you go to jail.
You wind up in jail- why?
Because you broke the law and could not pay the fine.
Sinners go to hell because of sin and inability to make payment.
They do not JUST go to hell because they refuse to accept funds from Calvary.
They go to hell FIRST because they broke the Law.
But sin is still the primary reason people go to hell. In your analogy, why do you have to make a electric payment? It's because you have received a service. If somebody offers to pay your electric bill for you, but you refuse to let them, you still have to pay your electric bill because you received electricity. That's the primary reason. Yes, a secondary reason is that you refused to let someone help you, but the primary reason is still that you received a service.
Same thing with sin and hell. A person goes to hell because of their sin. One that rejects Jesus goes to hell. This is a secondary reason. They are still going because of their sin.
But as you said, God knew that Jonah would run away. It wasn't a "reaction" as we look at reaction. It wasn't that God didn't already had planned the whole events. He knew Jonah would run away and it was always part of the plan. God knows all things at all times.
Robert Snow
New Member
Jesus' payment for sin was sufficient for everyone who has ever been born. It is only applied to those who by exercising their free will choose to accept it. This is plainly what the Scripture teaches.
A master chess player can anticipate your moves and even influence your moves, directing you where he wants you to go. Nevertheless, the opponent can make an unexpected move, he might even make a foolish move and lose his queen. Regardless of what he does, the master player can adapt to the new situation. The difference being God does not anticipate your move, he KNOWS where you are going to move every time. This in no way restricts a man of making his own free choice.
I don't deny that man makes choices. What I do deny is that man can make choices that overrides God's sovereignty.
But this wasn't the point I was addressing. It appeared that you were saying that God doesn't know future events.
Ok, I see what you are saying. The way I see it (and I could be wrong) is God has two perspectives. As Alpha the beginning he sees forward, and cannot see an event until it happens. But as Omega the end he can see back in time.
I could be wrong, but prophesy might not be looking forward predicting what will happen (although I believe there is much scripture supporting this), but rather looking back and telling us exactly what happened in hindsight.
So I believe God has both foresight and hindsight.
Jarthur001
Active Member
Hummmm.
This is Open Theism which I believe if one holds to this, they will be ban from posting on the BB. I maybe wrong, but I do believe they have ban others in the past.
Open Theism is not orthodox teaching.
That's what I said, too.
Do what you have (or desire) to do.
If you did not pull one statement out of context you would clearly see I believe God as Omega the end can look back in time from the end, therefore he knows exactly every event that will ever take place.
It is you DoGs that limit God and say he cannot see a free choice in the future.
If you did not pull one statement out of context you would clearly see I believe God as Omega the end can look back in time from the end, therefore he knows exactly every event that will ever take place.
It is you DoGs that limit God and say he cannot see a free choice in the future.
He cannot see something that isn't so.
The Archangel
Well-Known Member
This definitely looks and sounds like open theism to me. Also, it runs against Isaiah 46:
[8] “Remember this and stand firm,
recall it to mind, you transgressors,
[9] remember the former things of old;
for I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me,
[10] declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done,
saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose,’
(Isaiah 46:8-10 ESV, Emphasis mine)
If, as God Himself says in Isaiah 46, He declares the end from the beginning, then it must be the case that He not only knows an event in the future, He also causes the event in the future.
There is no "openness" in God. He is the Author, not an "observer."
This line of reasoning also creates a major contradiction in Winman's theology. He states that God's foreknowledge is, basically, looking through time to see would believe and then "electing" them on that basis. However, if God cannot "see and event until it happens," such foreknowledge is an absolute impossibility.
So, not only is Winman in clear contradiction to the Scriptures, he is also in clear contradiction to himself.
The Archangel
recall it to mind, you transgressors,
[9] remember the former things of old;
for I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me,
[10] declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done,
saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose,’
(Isaiah 46:8-10 ESV, Emphasis mine)
If, as God Himself says in Isaiah 46, He declares the end from the beginning, then it must be the case that He not only knows an event in the future, He also causes the event in the future.
There is no "openness" in God. He is the Author, not an "observer."
This line of reasoning also creates a major contradiction in Winman's theology. He states that God's foreknowledge is, basically, looking through time to see would believe and then "electing" them on that basis. However, if God cannot "see and event until it happens," such foreknowledge is an absolute impossibility.
So, not only is Winman in clear contradiction to the Scriptures, he is also in clear contradiction to himself.
The Archangel
That's because, in a weird way, that's what he said. Jarthur has the quote above.
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