Those who have never heard the gospel?

[skypair]

I don't want to say much because we'll hijack this thread. I do want to say that my move away from dispy-ism was not related to Calvinism. It was that I couldn't find a single clear, unequivocal, no-other-interpretation verse or passage that spoke of a pre-trib rapture.

That's it?? That's your reason??

You should try working the dispy theory from the other end -- the way it was originally developed to begin with. What dispies saw was that God had at least revealed Himself in 2 different ways -- one way in the OT and coming king, another way in the NT as suffering savior. I mean, it is patently clear that there are 2 testaments, isn't it Tom?? An old covenant and a new covenant, right?

Then note -- Israel is blind specifically because they don't believe the NT Messiah! There are still at least 2 diverse beliefs in the same God, right? One wrong and one right.

Now you will find dispensationalists divide time into more "eras" that this but that was not as obvious. I find most Christians don't believe in the rapture because they are not dispies. But why aren't they? Could it be any plainer that Christ has "another fold" to bring in?

skypair

 

[Tom Butler]

You should try working the dispy theory from the other end -- the way it was originally developed to begin with. What dispies saw was that God had at least revealed Himself in 2 different ways -- one way in the OT and coming king, another way in the NT as suffering savior. I mean, it is patently clear that there are 2 testaments, isn't it Tom?? An old covenant and a new covenant, right?

Then note -- Israel is blind specifically because they don't believe the NT Messiah! There are still at least 2 diverse beliefs in the same God, right? One wrong and one right.

Now you will find dispensationalists divide time into more "eras" that this but that was not as obvious. I find most Christians don't believe in the rapture because they are not dispies. But why aren't they? Could it be any plainer that Christ has "another fold" to bring in?

I don't know, I think Isaiah 53 does a pretty good job of revealing a Suffering Savior. The entire Old Testament sacrifical system was designed to point to the Messiah as such.

I also view Israel's blindness as part of God's redemption plan. Their rejection of Jesus as the Messian did not come as a surprise to God.

When Jesus spoke of "other sheep" in John 10, he was not speaking of two separate folds. He was speaking of Gentiles who would come into one fold with believing Jews.

Skypair, I am not schooled in dispy theology. so you can run rings around me on this subject. I've alread said more about this than I know. I'll go back and read Ed Edwards posts on the subject and Mel Miller's as well. Maybe I can absorb quite a bit before my eyes glaze over.

 

[Tom Butler]

By the way, whatever happened to the OP? Does anybody remember what it was?

 

[GordonSlocum]

And thus you have arrived at the principal difference between Calvinists and non-Calvinists.

Calvinists hold that God's foreknowledge is based on his decrees. That is, God knows all because he has decreed those things to come to pass. That's why God is able to make promises and keep them.

Non-Cals hold that his decrees are based on his foreknowledge. God is reactive, not proactive.

I am so glad you made a very simple clear statement of what Calvinism is. It is so hard for most Calvinist to just state it short and to the point.

"God Knows All Because He has Decreed" Do you mean God did not know he would decree before He decreed? If you can answer that question by saying God knew He would decree before He decreed then you are not far form the truth. :smilewinkgrin:

Are you saying that God can not know free actions if He planned it that way? Are you saying that God can only robotically plan an action by which then He can only know it?

Illustrate: I am God (illustration) Son, Holy Spirit, I decreed that an ant will walk 30 feet and John Doe will step on it and it will die. I also decreed that the man would be in the right place at the right time so that he would step on the ant and kill it.

Does the God of your decrees - decree any freedom at all for anything?

Gordon

 

[Tom Butler]

"God Knows All Because He has Decreed" Do you mean God did not know he would decree before He decreed? If you can answer that question by saying God knew He would decree before He decreed then you are not far form the truth. :smilewinkgrin:

If we think in human terms, this is the kind of debate we will get into. What God decrees he has always decreed. What God knows he has always known.
The rest is beyond my ability to comprehend.

Are you saying that God can not know free actions if He planned it that way? Are you saying that God can only robotically plan an action by which then He can only know it?

I don't understand the argument that if God decrees he cannot know the free actions of men. Men always operate freely within their nature.

Ah, the old robot argument. Of course, if God had determined to fashion his decrees according to his foresight, he could have. Then God becomes the robot, unable to act unless men act first.

Illustrate: I am God (illustration) Son, Holy Spirit, I decreed that an ant will walk 30 feet and John Doe will step on it and it will die. I also decreed that the man would be in the right place at the right time so that he would step on the ant and kill it.

Does the God of your decrees - decree any freedom at all for anything?

Yes. With one's nature.