Those who have not heard the Gospel

[Tom Butler]

Jesus said he didn't...you say he did. Who should we believe?

Here is what God revealed to Peter: "You [Jesus} are the Christ, the son of the Living God."

Peter was not ignorant of the OT scriptures, nor of John the Baptist's preaching. And he, along with the other disciples, had spent a lot of time with Jesus since he called them. God revealed to Peter that Jesus was the Messiah prophesied in the OT. He was the Lamb of God John the Baptist preached about.

Without that frame of reference, can you imagine a scenario like this? God, speaking to Peter: "Peter, your teacher Jesus is the Messiah, the anointed one, my son"

Peter, speaking to God: "Uh, what's a Messiah? And who IS this?"

 

[BobRyan]

Peter is a fisherman - not a scholar or theologian or priest or Sabbath school teacher or lawyer etc.

The informed teachers, priests, scholars, Bible experts all said "the son of the Carpenter has no education and is dead wrong in his doctrinal views". Many false messiah's had already come to mislead the people and now comes an unneducated carpenter whom the Bible scholars of the day claimed to be working magic via some sorcery not through the power of God.

Furthermore by the time you get to Matt 16 it was getting to the point where you could not have any religious service performed for you IF you were found following this unneducated carpenter from Nazareth in stead of the approved orthodox, popular, blessed Bible scholarship that was coming out of Jerusalem.

Now who would the fishermen follow?

Everyday people could not afford to follow every Messiah that came along and did not fit the mold of the priests -- particularly since Rome was squashing those groups like bugs!

Peter had a lot of incentive - a lot of reasons to just sit this one out and see what happened.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Webdog: Jesus said he didn't...you say he did. Who should we believe?

HP: I believe you are missing the point. The point is Not about whether or not God can and does reveal truth to ones heart, nor is it about man’s total inability in and of himself to reveal truth to man’s heart. God stated that without me ye can do nothing. Man is not, nor can he be, the revealer of truth to the heart. Just the same, God has chosen the means of initiating the truths of the gospel, and that means utilizes mans efforts.

Just because man spreads the good news does not mean it becomes reality to the heart automatically through the sole efforts of men and women. First men hear the good news via the efforts of man as men are empowered of the Holy Spirit to spread the gospel, and then the Holy Spirit brings that truth alive to their heart. It would be foolish to think that men reveal the truth in actuality to man’s heart. God must do a work on the inside of man in order for truth to be effective in the hearts of men. It always takes the power of the Holy Spirit in conjunction with the work God called upon man to perform in the spreading of the good news to reach the heart of man.

The verse in question where Jesus told Peter that flesh and blood did not reveal the truth to him about who Christ was, cannot be made to be seen as in no sense or manner any human had any part to play in Peter coming into the knowledge of who Christ was. All that can be reasonably ascertained from the verse was that God Himself is the only one that can reveal to the heart of man spiritual truths. In no way can this verse be made to uphold the position that nothing any man had ever done influenced Peter’s reality as to who Christ was. Before the truth was revealed to his heart, Peter saw the man Christ Jesus and his followers. Peter had most likely been taught from a child that the Messiah was to come. Human efforts were indeed involved in his coming to the place that he actually laid eyes on Christ and God revealed to his heart that he was the Christ, the Son of the Living God.

Every time a missionary or a preacher spreads the good news, they are beholden to God to do a work in the hearts of the listener that they cannot do on their own. To conclude, as some are doing with this passage, that if God alone is the revealer of truth to the heart that man plays no part in the dissemination of the gospel, or that God disseminates the gospel apart from His chosen means, 'man,' is simply at direct antipodes with the teachings of Scripture that plainly state that none can hear without a preacher.

Besides, the issue of the OP deals with the salvation message, not simply one coming to the knowledge of who Christ is as in this case of Peter. There is no indication that Peter was saved or entered into a hope of eternal life at this point in time is there?

Judas was most likely revealed the same truth to his heart as Peter had received, but it obviously was not mixed with faith in the heart of Judas, or if it was he came to a point in where he rejected that truth as truth to order his life by.

This whole issue surrounding Peters words is nothing more than a rabbit trail concerning the OP. We need to refocus on salvation and the part man has been ordained by God to play in it.

 

[Debby in Philly]

I can't believe no one has posted John 3:18:

"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."

Note the words "condemned already."

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DIF: Note the words "condemned already."

HP: Duly noted:thumbs: What do the words tell you?

PS: I like cats as well. They taste like chicken!:laugh:

 

[BobRyan]

According to Romans 3 and Gal 3 - "All the world" is held accountable - is under the condemnation of the law -- (yes even in the NT!) and all the world NEEDs a savior!

Good news -- God sent his son "to be the Savior of the WORLD" 1John 4:14.

God who is not willing that ANY should perish sends the Holy Spirit to "Convict the WORLD of sin and righeousness and Judgment" - God who is not willing for ANY to perish sends the Son into the World who "is the light that coming into the World enlightens EVERY one of mankind". John 1.

God who is not willing that ANY should perish says "Behold I STAND at the door and KNOCK if ANYONE hears my voice and OPENS the door I WILL come in and fellowhip with them". Rev 3.

As Romans 2 says "God is not partial".



in Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

HP: May I quote John of Japan? His response to BR in a post several pages ago seems to be timeless, thus far anyway. :thumbs:

John of Japan (addressing BR on the same verses): Nope, the Scripture does not say that. It says if any one hears, not that Christ knocks on every door. It is inexcusable to be careless with the Scriptures.

 

[Tom Butler]

As Romans 2 says "God is not partial".

Except, of course, to those he has chosen to be partial to.

Deut 7:6-8
6 For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.

7 The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples,

8 but because the LORD loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the LORD brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Christ came to call sinners to repentance. If He came only to call certain sinners and reject others, then He did not come to draw all men unto Himself and lied when He said that.

Christ came to draw all. Every man, woman, and child to Himself. And He does that through the preaching of the cross.

He draws, but so many refuse to come to Him that they might have life.

 

[Rippon]

Christ came to call sinners to repentance. If He came only to call certain sinners and reject others, then He did not come to draw all men unto Himself and lied when He said that.

Christ came to draw all. Every man, woman, and child to Himself. And He does that through the preaching of the cross.

He draws, but so many refuse to come to Him that they might have life.

Effectual calling is only to those who He had in ages past determined to call savingly to Himself . He did not come to draw each and every person -- head for head . He came to bring to Himself people From Among every tribe , nation and language . You really need to counterbalance John 12:32 with John 6:37,39,44,65 to appreciate the doctrine of drawing .

Did the Lord come with the intention to draw all ( as in each and every ) but failed to accomplish His purpose ?! Of course not . The Lord died for His own . He will see the fruit of His suffering and be satisfied as Isaiah 53:11 prophesied .

The Lord is not waiting for frail humans to exercise their feeble will-power in order to be saved . And then , when a select few have mustered up enough of that power of theirs to then draw them to Himself .

You do realize that the Lord shows mercy to whomever He so choses , do you not ? And , further ,that He hardens those of His pleasing also ?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Just because people reject Him, does not mean He did not draw them. He said He would draw all men unto Himself. He has been drawing all men to Himself for 2000 years since the cross just has He promised.

To say He did not come to draw all men, every man woman and child to Himself is to call Him a liar.

To say that Christ's blood was not shed for every man woman and child is to reduce the love that God had for mankind when He sent His only Son to this earth for the very purpose of dying for all of mankind. He died for not just my sins or your sins, but for the sins of the whole world.

 

[Rippon]

Just because people reject Him, does not mean He did not draw them. He said He would draw all men unto Himself. He has been drawing all men to Himself for 2000 years since the cross just has He promised.

To say He did not come to draw all men, every man woman and child to Himself is to call Him a liar.

To say that Christ's blood was not shed for every man woman and child is to reduce the love that God had for mankind when He sent His only Son to this earth for the very purpose of dying for all of mankind. He died for not just my sins or your sins, but for the sins of the whole world.

You have not so much as mentioned the passages in John 6 that I referenced . You agree that Scripture does not contradict Scripture , right ? If He has drawn everyone ( even those in Hell by the time Jesus came ) then your idea of drawing is rather weak . So the Lord sorta' tugs and you call that drawing ?! the Bible says He draws those of His choosing unalterably to Himself . Your concept of drawing is ineffectual . Or it's a mixed bag . He is sucessful with some but fails to get others on board .

And again , If you think that Christ died for Cain , the residents of the world at the time of the Great Flood with the exception of Noah's family ,Esau , Korah &family , the citizens of Sodom , Gomorrah , Pharaoh , Judas & Co. more power to you . But the Bible is clear about many whose destiny is Hell -- His blood was not for them . These and many more have been marked out for condemnation before the world began . They have been reserved for the blackness of darkness forever !

He died for those He intended to save and no one else . He died for all those whose names are enrolled in the Lamb's Book of Life and no one else .

It is the perfect right of God to do whatever He wants to do . He is under no obligation to anyone . His love is not compromised by dying for those He set His love upon and leaving the rest to their just condemnation . Yes , He loves his Church and gave Himself up for Her . He bought the Church with His own blood .The Bible uses a multitude of words to designate His elect ones . The Lord's sheep are the ones for whom He laid down His life .

So are we clear here ? According to Scripture ,( not according to your ideas of fairness or your sentimentality) Christ did not die for the Church/Sheep/elect/His children/saints et cetra AND the non-Church/non-elect/non-saints and so forth . He died with the distinct purpose of saving His own , and no one else .

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Jesus Christ died on the cross for the sins of the whole world. If someone ends up in hell they end up there with their sins paid for. What caused them to go to hell? Rejection of Christ and His drawing.

I have seen people reject that drawing. I have seen them grip the back of the pew in front of them so hard that their knuckles turned white and their arms literally shaked. And yet they later told me they were not ready to give their lives over to the Lord.

We cannot pick and choose what we like about Scripture and dismiss the rest. Since Christ said "Whosoever will" and "For the Son of man came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance" and "And I, if I be lifted up, will draw all men unto me", I cannot dismiss that He does the drawing. And it is up to us to respond.

It is like a magnet trying to pick up a heavy metal ball. The resistance from the ball is so great the magnet is unable to bring that ball to itself even though it is drawing. The evidence of a drawing is there, as the ball will slightly move or wobble. And yet, it remains.

That is the way with many of mankind today... they resist the drawing.

 

[Linda64]

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Does every one mean every one--or does it mean just the "elect"?

Does "whosoever" mean "whosoever"? Jesus said "whosoever" 66 times in the four Gospels. What did He mean by "whosoever"?

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

Jesus died for ALL:

Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Therefore, because Jesus died for all men, anyone who rejects the gift of salvation (the finished work of Christ on the cross of Calvary), will go to hell with their sins ALREADY paid for.

 

[John of Japan]

HP: May I quote John of Japan? His response to BR in a post several pages ago seems to be timeless, thus far anyway. :thumbs:

Yes you may quote me any time! Thank you for the kind words. :wavey:

 

[BobRyan]

Just because people reject Him, does not mean He did not draw them. He said He would draw all men unto Himself. He has been drawing all men to Himself for 2000 years since the cross just has He promised.

To say He did not come to draw all men, every man woman and child to Himself is to call Him a liar.

To say that Christ's blood was not shed for every man woman and child is to reduce the love that God had for mankind when He sent His only Son to this earth for the very purpose of dying for all of mankind. He died for not just my sins or your sins, but for the sins of the whole world.

Amen!

"God sent His Son as the Atoning Sacrifice for our sins and NOT FOR OUR sins only but for the sins OF THE WHOLE WORLD" 1John 2:2.

Yes the Arminian POV is "God so loved the WORLD -- yes really!".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
As Romans 2 says "God is not partial".

Except, of course, to those he has chosen to be partial to.

Deut 7:6-8
6 For you are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.

7 The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples,

8 but because the LORD loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the LORD brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

God does NOT say "I have chosen you to love and all the world to hate" rather God says "God so loved the WORLD that HE gave".

Yes really.

In the example above you have Israel chosen as a "Holy Nation" and "Nation of Priests" -- it is a calling a ministry NOT a case of "God wanting to Save Israel but not the WHOLE World".

It is God wanting to USE Israel as His chosen means of evangelizing the WHOLE World.

The same as we see in 1Cor 12 and the spiritual gifts - everyone is not given the same role to play but that does not mean that God "is willing for MOST to perish and only SOME to come to repentance" -- the fact is when it comes to the Romans 2 issue of salvation God really is "NOT partial" and Paul goes into a lot of detail in Romans 2:2-16 to prove it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Paul is so effective in Romans 2 at proving that in all the OT times God is NOT partial between Jews and Gentiles that he actually needs to address the NEXT obvious question given that stellar presentation of the unbiased impartial God that loves ALL in Rom2 -- both Jew and GENTILE in the OT and still to this very day... And the question is -

"WHAT advantage then is there for the Jews"? Rom 3:1-3

And the advantage is their relationship to SCRIPTURE "For THEIRS is the oracles of God"! (Hint that would be OT context showing that the question and the impartial aspect of God extend to BOTH OT and NT)

As the Holy Nation - the Royal Priesthood THEY were in great evangelistic position!

Chosen for MINISTRY -- but not chosen to be "the only World that God so LOVED" as some think.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: he actually needs to address the NEXT obvious question given that stellar presentation of the unbiased impartial God that loves ALL in Rom2 -- both Jew and GENTILE in the OT and still to this very day... And the question is -

"WHAT advantage then is there for the Jews"? Rom 3:1-3

HP: I hate to keep repeating myself, but equality of love does NOT necessitate that mercy be shown universally to all in the same manner as you constantly affirm it does. Because mercy is not at all times and to all peoples distributed as BR believes it needs to be, (again to give cover for his adherence to the false dogma of original sin and its illogical and unscriptural implications) and Scripture asserts it is not by the way, that God somehow does not love the world.

The Scripture you are addressing here is NOT establishing God has always treated everyone impartial in His show of mercy from the OT to the NT as you incorrectly add to the text, but rather Paul is addressing the question NOW, as he speaks, as to what advantage has the Jew NOW has if in fact the gospel is to be proclaimed equally to all. Paul is saying that the Jew has a decided advantage having had the Scripture delivered to them and preached to them for centuries delivered to them by the mouth of God to them personally.

Even Christ, as he first walked on this earth, stated that His mission was ONLY to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Did God not love the world then BR? When Jesus told his disciples NOT to go evangelize in the cities of the Gentiles, did God not love the Gentile world then? Were there not multitudes dying everyday in those many cities that might never have had another chance to be reached with the gospel, and Christ just cut off their only hope? Did Christ not so love the world BR?

BR: Chosen for MINISTRY -- but not chosen to be "the only World that God so LOVED" as some think.

HP: Because some understand the clear distinction between love and God’s show of mercy, and realize that God does not have to show mercy in order to be loving, does not necessitate nor deserve your false accusations BR. You are deceiving yourself and treating others clearly in a less than honest manner when you start claiming that myself or others, that believe as Scripture clearly states that God can love all without showing all the same opportunity for mercy, somehow necessitates us believing that God only loves some.

 

[Tom Butler]

God chose the children out of all the nations of the earth. He did not reveal himself to the other nations in the way he did to Israel. He just as easily could have, but he didn't.

He chose Isaac instead of Ishmael. He chose Jacob instead of Esau. He chose David to be king instead of his brothers.

We don't know why he made those choices instead of others, but he did. And it is apparent that none of them deserved his favor.