Those who have not heard the Gospel

[BobRyan]

One could Just as easily argue that God reveals himself to Paul (taking him to the third heaven in 2Cor 12 -- in a more direct manner than to you or I ... "different than to you or I"



2 Corinthians 12
1 Boasting is necessary, though it is not profitable; but I will go on to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years agowhether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knowssuch a man was [b]caught up to the third heaven.[/b]
3 And I know how such a manwhether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows
4 was caught up into Paradise[/b] and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.


That difference still does not constitue "yet another Gospel".

The Gospel in the OT remains "by grace through faith" AS IT does in the NT!

One Gospel for all time.

One sin problem in all of time.

One God "who does not change -- but is the same yesterday today and forever" in all of time.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: One God "who does not change -- but is the same yesterday today and forever" in all of time.

HP: God is no static celestial zombie. His character does not change but His methods, His means of spreading the good news and to whom He chooses to show mercy to and when, does. Even the conditions for forgiveness of sin have changed greatly from the covenant law of the OT. Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

 

[BobRyan]

No question that forms of worship change - but God still loves ALL - seeks to save ALL - reaches ALL - convicts ALL - draws ALL - sends the Roma 10 witness such that the answer for ALL to the question "surely they have never heard have they?" is as Romans 10 states "INDEED they HAVE"

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Rippon]

No question that forms of worship change - but God still loves ALL - seeks to save ALL - reaches ALL - convicts ALL - draws ALL - sends the Roma 10 witness such that the answer for ALL to the question "surely they have never heard have they?" is as Romans 10 states "INDEED they HAVE"

Bob , all of what you have typed is false .

 

[standingfirminChrist]

God is not willing that any should perish (that leaves out no one) but that all men come to repentance (that includes everyone)

There are none elected to go to hell. God's Son shed His blood for mankind... all of mankind, that they might be saved.

If someone ends up in hell, it is of their own choice, not God's.

 

[Rippon]

God is not willing that any should perish (that leaves out no one) but that all men come to repentance (that includes everyone)

Rippon :The letters of 1st and 2nd Peter were written to believers . If God is not willing for any particular thing to happen -- it will not happen . But for you to glean from 2 Peter 3:9 that He wills all to come to repentance is absurd . He willed Judas , Pharaoh , Esau and many others not receive eternal life .

There are none elected to go to hell. God's Son shed His blood for mankind... all of mankind, that they might be saved.

Rippon : That's true . None are elected to go to hell . Election only refers to the objects of His mercy . Reprobation deals with those who are foreodained for destruction .

Rippon : No , you are wrong . He did not shed His blood for those He did not intend to save . He did not die for those who were already in Hell before His incarnation . He did not die for those whose names are not enrolled in the Lamb's Book of Life . He did not die for those He sends powerful delusions so they will believe what is false .

If someone ends up in hell, it is of their own choice, not God's.

Rippon : Someone ends up in hell , i.e. doomed , foreordained to destruction or perdition because of their sins . But it is God's Divine choice not to savingly reveal Himself to many . He hardens those He wishes to harden .

 

[standingfirminChrist]

No one ends up in hell because of their sins. Their sins were paid for on the cross 2000 years ago.

They will end up in hell because they believe not on the Son of God.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

 

[Rippon]

No one ends up in hell because of their sins. Their sins were paid for on the cross 2000 years ago.

They will end up in hell because they believe not on the Son of God.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

The wrath of God will abide ( forever ) on those who have never even heard about Christ or the Gospel . A good dose of chapters 1 and 2 of Romans should disabuse you of your ideas .

 

[Rippon]

No one ends up in hell because of their sins. Their sins were paid for on the cross 2000 years ago.

Besides , if someone's sins are paid for they are redeemed . God's eternal wrath will not abide on them . If everyone's sins were paid for then everyone is saved -- you know that won't fly . For you to deny that their sins sent them to hell is very unorthodox . Many non-Cals would severely disagree with you there . But , more importantly the Bible is against you .

 

[standingfirminChrist]

The Bible is not against me. The Scripture states that those who believe not have the wrath of God abiding on them, not those who sin.

Paul, saved as he was still sinned.

The Word of God declares Christ shed His blood on the cross. When He was lifted up on that cross, He began the drawing of all men untoi Him just as He promised.

And it does not matter the lies from Calvinists, Arminians, or any in between the two groups. Christ died for all, not some.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

John 5:34-40 But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved. He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light. But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape. And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not. Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

This passage tears down the Limited Atonement petal and the Irresistable Grace petal of the so-called TULIP.

Christ came that the Pharisees He was speaking to might be saved. But they would not believe in Him. They would n ot come to Him that they might have life.

He came to save them and they refused that Salvation... even hanging Him on that tree. He came to save those who chose to walk in darkn ess.

And since He said if He was lifted up on that cross as Moses lifted the serpent, He would draw all men (not some) unto Himself, that is just what He did and is still doing today.

To claim He did not die for all mankind, is to deny the clear teaching of the Scripture.

 

[Rippon]

The Bible is not against me. The Scripture states that those who believe not have the wrath of God abiding on them, not those who sin.

Rippon : I believe John 3:18 as much as you do , however their sins ( including non-belief ) will condemn them to Hell . In Romans 1:18 it says that "God's wrath is revealed from heaven against all godlessness and unrighteousness of people who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth ."

Paul, saved as he was still sinned.

Rippon : I fail to see any point there .

The Word of God declares Christ shed His blood on the cross. When He was lifted up on that cross, He began the drawing of all men untoi Him just as He promised.

Rippon : Well , the drawing you believe in is very ineffectual because many who have been "drawn" are reprobates and , consequently are in eternal misery . John 12:32 is not in opposition to the passages of John 6 . The Lord has not drawn every single person -- head for head to Himself . That is quite apparent .The drawing of Scripture rersults in saving union with the Lord -- no near misses .

And it does not matter the lies from Calvinists, Arminians, or any in between the two groups. Christ died for all, not some.

Rippon : Christ died for all of His elect and no one else .

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Christ died for all mankind and not a person less.

 

[BobRyan]

Indeed "He is the Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sin and not for OUR (the elect) sins only BUT also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" 1John 2:2

Still there are some who think the text is better understood as saying "NOT for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD but JUST for the sin of His ELECT".

Sadly for that POV and fortunately for all mankind - no such text.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The wrath of God will abide ( forever ) on those who have never even heard about Christ or the Gospel . A good dose of chapters 1 and 2 of Romans should disabuse you of your ideas .

Romans 10 "SURELY they have never heard have they?
INDEED THEY HAVE" and then an appeal to the ALL REACHING mechanism/voice/witness of Nature itself in a quote of Ps 19 by Paul.

Even Romans 1 is an appeal to that same ALL REACHING mechanism.

 

[BobRyan]

No question that forms of worship change - but God still loves ALL - seeks to save ALL - reaches ALL - convicts ALL - draws ALL - sends the Roma 10 witness such that the answer for ALL to the question "surely they have never heard have they?" is as Romans 10 states "INDEED they HAVE"

Bob , all of what you have typed is false .

You have stated your preference well -- and now the proof?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

He has no proof without either twisting the Word to mean what it does not, or taking Scripture out of context.

 

[hillclimber1]

Romans 1 states all have heard. The Law of God is written on their hearts and He is known through creation. Also, all men are created with a desire to live forever (Ecc. 3:11), and all are drawn to Christ (John 12:32). It is true that all have received some measure of Truth, and all will be judged on what they have received (think the story of the ten minas or talents).

The law is set aside till the Lord takes up the Kingdom later. We are under "Grace" now and not the "Law". If we had the law written on our hearts today, we'd have no need to own or study the Bible.

 

[Rippon]

The Lord loves all ?! Just for starters try these passages on for size .

The most famous one which has to be acknowledged : He hated Esau ( Ro.9:13 )

He hates all who do wrong ( Ps. 5:5 )

He hates the wocked and those who love violence ( Ps. 11:5 ) (He hates them with all His heart . )

He hates those who cling to worthless idols ( Ps. 31:6 )

He despises some ( Ps. 53:5 )

He abhorred His inheritance (Ps. 106:40 )

The Lord detests perverse people ( Proverbs 3:32 )

If you claim to be a Bible-believer then the Scripture does not teach the widespread fallacy of God loving everyone without exception .

It was said by some here that the Lord convicts all . How is that possible without even hearing the Gospel ? We've been over this before , but it has to be conceded that multiplied millions have never heard the Gospel . For most centuries most of Asia was without the sound of the Gospel for instance .

The Lord does not savingly convict anyone without that individual hearing Gospel truths . That person will come under the God-implanted voice of his conscience telling him that there is indeed a Creator and that he has broken the laws of that Creator . But this is not Gospel conviction leading to saving belief in the truth .

The Lord reaches all ?! This comes under the same banner of the last two paragraphs . The Lord does not savingly reach everyone in toto with the saving truths of the Gospel .

 

[standingfirminChrist]

If you claim to be a Bible-believer then the Scripture does not teach the widespread fallacy of God ordaining some to hell.

God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself...

Whosoever will let him take the water of life freely.

You can deny these Scriptures are for every single man woman and child all you want, but it does not make them any less true.

You can twist them to mean God is a respector of persons and foreordains certain people no matter whether they seek His love and forgiveness to hell all you want, but the fact remains... Eternal life is for all of mankind if they will turn to Him.

His Word declares it and calls anyone a liar who would act Pharisaical and full of pride that you are of a certain group whom God has place better than others.

He that exalts himself will be abased.