THose Who Haven't Heard

[Michael Wrenn]

Jeff,

No need to apologize; you did nothing to apologize for.

To all,

I never said I believed that EVERYONE who had never heard the gospel would go to heaven; that was not and is not my psoition.

 

[Dr. Bob]

And John, I was not disagreeing with you at all, just adding to the thoughts. Sorry I didn't make that clear.

Michael - Guess I've misspoken about your premise, too. Mea culpa. When you said that the vast majority would be in heaven even though they never heard of Jesus, I took that a step further to include ALL who never heard. Assumption on my part.

Where is the cut off. Who actually WILL go to hell?

As you know, I am death on ignorance and this topic has me stumped! I have been educated beyond my intelligence, but never heard of "baptists" who believed the way these are portrayed. So help me understand the thinking!

Thanks

 

[Mikayehu]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>From my reading of Romans Ch.2, my belief in the Light of Christ, my interpretation of John 1:9 and Titus 2:11,
and my belief in the infinite mercy and justice of God, I believe that people who haven't heard the gospel will be judged based on the use they make of the Light they have. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Michael,
I agree that men are judged on the basis of the light they have, but (since you mentioned Romans 2) if you'll follow Paul's argument through Romans 1-3, I don't believe your position, that those who have never heard the gospel can be saved, can be sustained. The point of the first few chapters of Romans is that all men, everywhere, are condemned, and lest anyone should object, "but what about those who never heard the gospel?" Paul explains in Romans 2 that creation is available to all men (revealing God's eternal power and deity), yet every single man rejects God. Paul never argues here that anyone can be saved apart from "the faith of Jesus Christ." He is arguing why God is just in condemning all men, even those who have never heard the gospel. I believe this becomes explicitly clear, when Paul argues that faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

I know you feel this kicks against your view of God's mercy, but Ephesians 2-3 also teaches that countless Gentiles died in the OT "without hope" and without God, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel.

As far as infants go, that is a different question. Paul's argument in Romans is that all men everywhere may be justly condemned, because all men everywhere have rejected the light they've been given. Infants, of course, do not fit within the realm of that argument.

 

[Danette]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Just think of what this is saying: that for a life span of a mere 70 years, or much less, all those who never heard the gospel are automatically sentenced by God to spend an ETERNITY in hell.

If this is your idea of a merciful and just God, I think it is a warped definition of those two attributes.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe, this expresses a common misunderstanding of the nature of sin. Going back to Gen. 3:4,5 Satan told Eve that if she and Adam ate from the tree of knowledge they would "be as gods, knowing good and evil." When man fell he chose to become his own god, judging for himself what is good or evil. Rom. 5:12 says, "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned." We are all sinners by birth due to the fall and by personal choice.

All sin has it's root in this original sin. Whether it is murder, immorality, homosexuality, lying, or yelling at my kids the root of all sin is found in making a personal god choice, deciding for myself what is good and what is evil -- what I can do and what I can't or shouldn't. That is why all sin is equal in God's eyes -- because the basic root sin is that I am my own god which is an absolute affront to who God is. My sin choice separated me from God.

The penalty of death is the absence or cessation of life. The only source of life is God. When we sinned (by birth and by choice) we qualified for the consequence of death because we chose to separate ourselves from God. Death is not something God is punishing us with, it is the natural consequence of rejecting Him as God, the only source of life. God doesn't need to damn anyone to death -- we've already chosen that for ourselves by our choice to sin.

The mercy of God is that He was not content to abandon us in our sin, but through the death of Christ He made a way that we could be reconciled to Him and given His life - eternal life. The mercy of God is that He has called some out of death to life in Christ.

The Word gives a lot of indication that God reveals Himself even to those who have never "heard the Word" because He shows the truth of Himself all around them. The Word also says that if anyone diligently seeks God, He will reveal Himself. Does He really mean that? Since I believe the Word means exactly what it says, I believe that for anyone who seeks God, whether they have ever heard or read the Bible, God WILL reveal Himself. Is He not just as capable of accomplishing this as He ever was? We are putting God into an awfully small box if we think He isn't capable of revealing Himself to someone who has never seen a Bible. We may be surprise at who we find to be our next-door neighbors in heaven!

-- Danette

 

[Danette]

And just to be perfectly clear -- I don't believe that God offers another way to heaven outside of Christ's death, even to those who have never heard of the Bible. He is quite capable of revealing all that too, in whatever way He pleases. He's way bigger than I can figure out.

 

[Kathy]

Isn't each person given a measure of faith?

Kathy
&lt;&gt;&lt;

 

[Kathy]

And while we are on the subject...why will Satan be loosed for a short season as stated in Revelation? Is it to pluck weeds, so to speak? Thanks!

Kathy
&lt;&gt;&lt;

[ October 21, 2001: Message edited by: Kathy ]

 

[EPH 1:4]

ONLY those who have been born again are given a measure of faith..ROMANS 12....also read 2 THESSALONIANS chapter 3..hope this helps

 

[artofstone]

Hi Michael,
It is a tough question and I don't think anyone has the definitive answer, least of all me!

Books such as Millard Erickson's 'How then shall they be saved?' outline the different views on this topic if you are interested.

Here are a some hurried thoughts from my own struggle with this question:

1. I think it is necessary to recognize that there is an asymmetrical nature to this question, namely:

a. We are saved through faith in Christ.
b. But we are condemned because of our sin, and because of our sin alone, not because we haven't heard (see Ephesians and Romans).

Too often we take a dualistic world view where everything is in black and white, in symmetrical opposition. (Actually, it seems to be a predominantly western world view influenced by those old Greeks). I have found that as I study the word, this is not the case with God. Sure there is good and evil, but good is ontological, evil is not, and so God will destroy it (...has destroyed it through Christ's work on the cross).
Sure there is life and death but life, swallows up death! (1 Cor 15).
Sure God saves by His grace, but we condemn ourselves by our sin. It's the divine sovereignty vs human responsibility tension again which we all struggle with.

2. I think it is tempting, as others have pointed out, to sentimentalise God ("Is this a merciful God?" type questions). We find it hard to accept God's wrath as an aspect of His love, yes, His love! I could go on about this a bit, but you have probably heard this before. If not, a useful book there would be D.A.Carson's "The difficult doctrine of the love of God".

When I find myself asking questions like "Is this the sign of a merciful God?", I try to ask myself (and God) - is this who God says He is, who He reveals Himself to be in His word, or is this my own 'nice genie' notion of God?

If it's a 'nice genie' notion, I ask myself why I hold it and why am I so scared to discard it in favour of God's truth about Himself. Sometimes it's because it is something I have been taught or held to for a long time and haven't really questioned before. Sometimes I prefer a 'nice genie' notion because the truth confronts some matter of disobedience or pride in me, or requires change in some aspect of my life that I do not want to submit to God.
Sometimes it's because I am taking an worldy point of view instead of God's point of view - my underlying presuppositions are upside down and the wrong way around. Sometimes it's because I don't want to appear hard-nosed, hard-lined or something of that nature amongst my friends or I am too afraid that if I tell my unsaved friends about God, they will reject Him. You know, all the wrong reasons for holding to false notions of God! And sometimes it's because I just well want to know how and why, right here, right now. *stomp foot*


3. As for you, I think you already have the answer. You KNOW God to be holy, merciful and just. He demonstrated that most clearly when Jesus died for us on the cross,in accordance with God's promises, WHILE WE WERE STILL HIS ENEMIES AND HATED GOD. So while we may not have the definitive answer on this one, we can rest assured that his actions and judgments are true. And one day, both those who are saved and those who are condemned will bow the knee in acknowledgement of that fact.

artofstone

 

[Pastor Larry]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Danette:
We are putting God into an awfully small box if we think He isn't capable of revealing Himself to someone who has never seen a Bible. We may be surprise at who we find to be our next-door neighbors in heaven!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The question is not "What is God capable of doing?" The question is "How did God say he would operate in this age?" The answer is in a number of places, not least of all Rom 10:17 where faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ. Now we might argue technically speaking that one can be saved without the Bible. However, the message of Christ which comes only through the Bible must be explained to them.

What happens to those who have never heard? They go to hell, separated from God in eternal conscious torment because of their sin against their creator.

 

[HankD]

Hi Kathy,

You wrote

&gt;&gt;Isn't each person given a measure of faith? &gt;&gt;

Every person is given a measure of enlightenment :

John 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

The problem:

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.


The solution:

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


&gt;&gt;And while we are on the subject...why will Satan be loosed for a short season as stated in Revelation? Is it to pluck weeds, so to speak? Thanks!&gt;&gt;


Matthew 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

HankD

 

[Danette]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Now we might argue technically speaking that one can be saved without the Bible. However, the message of Christ which comes only through the Bible must be explained to them.

What happens to those who have never heard? They go to hell, separated from God in eternal conscious torment because of their sin against their creator. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My primary point was that if God doesn't call all humans to salvation, that is not an injustice. He is not singling some out for damnation. We all earned damnation by our own sin choice -- it is His mercy that He saves any of us.

At the same time, I also believe it is possible for God to reveal the truth to someone who has never seen a Bible. I have heard stories and personal testimonies about this happening on the mission field and in countries where the Bible had yet to be translated. It's probably extremely rare, but with God all things are possible.

Those who truly never hear the Word (with the caveat that God says He has shown Himself to everyone through the creation around them and their own consciences) and who die in "ignorance" still have earned the penalty of their sin. That penalty is not unjust. I won't even get into infants, etc. That can be debated until the end of time. I know what I "think" about it, but it's 100% personal opinion which has no eternal merit.

-- Danette

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Larry,

That last paragraph is simply your opinion and one which I do not share. Further, I believe Romans Ch. 2 refutes your opinion.

 

[Joey M]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> What happens to those who have never heard? They go to hell, separated from God in eternal conscious torment because of their sin against their creator. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Romans 1:20 "For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"

This verse would seem to indicate that one can come to the Lord without ever reading the Bible.
I wasn't reading the Bible when God came knocking on my hearts door and started laying conviction on me. Then I started going to church then I got saved then I started reading my Bible.

 

[Pastor Larry]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael Wrenn:
Larry,

That last paragraph is simply your opinion and one which I do not share. Further, I believe Romans Ch. 2 refutes your opinion.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is not simply my opinion and I am not sure what you are disagreeing with. Those who do not believe perish. It is that simple. If they do not hear the gospel, they CANNOT believe. Read Romans 10:14-17 again. You don't even have to read it carefully (though it wouldn't hurt).

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>13 for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED." 14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? [omit OT quote for sake of space] So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How can they believe unless they hear and how will they will without a preacher? The answer is that can't believe unless they hear and if they do not believe they will perish. To word it more directly in line with this thread, Those who do not hear will not, yea cannot, believe and thus they will perish. If you don't like that, it is not me you are disagreeing with; it is Paul who was writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

This is not really a debatable point for those who believe Scripture means what it says. Romans 2 does not even address this point that I can see.

As for Rom 1:21 and revelation of God in creation, the point is that in creation there is enough revelation to condemn people but not enough to save them. Romans 1 is dealing with excuses. They have none because they plainly know that God exists. They simply will not accept it.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Larry,

Romans Ch. 2: 6-16, 26-29.

What I don't like has nothing to do with scripture, just your INTERPRETATION of same.

God makes provision for those who never had a chance to hear the Gospel; scripture proves it, reason affirms it, and the character of God as revealed in Jesus Christ seals it.

I'm glad God is in charge of the ultimate destiny of human souls and you're not. You would confine all but a very few of mankind to an eternal concentration camp because of an unavoidable condition of their earthly lives, never having had a chance to accept Christ--they being punished for an eternity for what happened in the course of 70 years, on average.

I'm glad God is more merciful, just and loving than that.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Thanks for interacting with the text of Scriputre. Of course, I am being facetious because you said nothing about the text that categorically disproves your whole thesis.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Romans Ch. 2: 6-16, 26-29.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

These verses have very little, if any, support for what you are saying. You certainly have provided no explanation of them in your favor. The point of this passage is that everyone has an innate knowledge of God and as Doug Moo says, their innate knowledge demonstrates their guilt. Vv. 14-16 further confirm the fact that all have a knowledge of God by the fact of their conscience. And notice by whom they will be judged - Christ Jesus. Vv. 26-29 is discussing the spiritual condition as opposed to the physical.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>God makes provision for those who never had a chance to hear the Gospel; scripture proves it, reason affirms it, and the character of God as revealed in Jesus Christ seals it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You have not cited any Scriptural proof; reason is not the judge (cf 1 Cor 1:18ff); the character of God as revealed in Jesus Christ shows that a full payment for sin is required.

If your position is right, then there was no need for God to send Christ in the first place because there is another way - just don't hear about it and you are safe. Yet Christ said, "I am the way ... no one come to the Father except through me." Yet you would make Christ a liar by saying that there is another way, that one can get to the Father apart from Christ.

We must submit ourselves to Scripture, not to our logical conceptions of what God must be like to be fair.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I'm glad God is in charge of the ultimate destiny of human souls and you're not. You would confine all but a very few of mankind to an eternal concentration camp because of an unavoidable condition of their earthly lives, never having had a chance to accept Christ--they being punished for an eternity for what happened in the course of 70 years, on average.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually God says that there will be, as you put it, "all but a very few" in hell through the broad road and only a few on the road to eternal life. Then you have the audacity to suggest a works salvation. My friend, if you mean what you just said then you need to seriously consider your self. Man is not now, nor has he ever been saved for "what happened in the course of 70 years." He is saved by Christ on the basis of belief in him.

You are starting very much to sound like one who has decided what he wants to believe and ignores what contradicts it in Scripture. You talk here and other places about how much you don't like our interpretation. But then you offer nothing but opinions. I will be glad to sustain any interpretation from exegesis. You have not yet done that. You made a feeble attempt in 1 Tim 2 to place Paul's writing as his own opinion not binding and then to say it was merely cultural. However, that is simply a ridiculous argument. Exegesis is the key to winning support for your interpretation.

[ October 23, 2001: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ]

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Larry,

I wish I had more time; I'm at work, though, so I do not.

A couple of very brief comments: I did not say that those who don't hear the gospel are safe--I wish you'd quit mischaracterizing my beliefs. I said that SOME who never hear the gospel may still be saved, and that all of those who do not hear will be judged on the use they make of the light they have. And the Romans passage says just that.

Now, about the cultural vs. eternal decree argument: You can't have it both ways; you can't say that part of one passage reflects the culture of the times but the other part of the same passage is an eternal decree. And yet that's what you, John Wells, Chris Temple and others do--just as you interpret literally when it suits your purposes and figuratively when it does the same.

And one more thing for now: if you're going to interpret my views, I wish you'd do it accurately based on what I have written instead of twisting it to mean something that I didn't mean.

More later.

 

[Pastor Larry]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I did not say that those who don't hear the gospel are safe--I wish you'd quit mischaracterizing my beliefs. I said that SOME who never hear the gospel may still be saved, and that all of those who do not hear will be judged on the use they make of the light they have. And the Romans passage says just that. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am not intentionally mischaracterizing your beliefs. You are making some very broad statements that I am responding to. Now, on to the bigger point, if SOME who never hear the gospel may be still be saved, then what did Christ mean when he said, “I am the way the truth and the life; no one comes to the Father but by me”? NNE seems to exclude SOME comeing another way. What did Peter mean when he said “There is no salvation in any other for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved”? You have some very serious problems with explicit passages of Scripture. You have chosen a minority (and well refuted) interpretation of Romans 2 while denying a clear meaning of other passages.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Now, about the cultural vs. eternal decree argument: You can't have it both ways; you can't say that part of one passage reflects the culture of the times but the other part of the same passage is an eternal decree.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No actually you can. That is what the exegetical process does. It helps us to understand how to interpret. However, in the passage you are talking about over there you have clearly assigned cultural limits to a non-cultural directive. Adam being created first is not first century truth. Eve being deceived is not first century truth. I have stayed out of it because Scripture is so clear. It is funny (and sad) to me that anyone questions it. Cultural applications are indicated by cultural reasons. 1 Tim 2 does not give cultural reasons (unless you consider historical context to involve 6-10 thousand years). Paul gives reasons that are completely outside the context, reasons that go to the creation of man and woman. That can in no way be said to be cultural. However, I do not want to get off track here. I say that here only because I am not going to get involved there.

Back to the point here, to say that SOME may get heaven apart from belief in Jesus Christ is a direct contradiction of clear Scripture.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Larry,

I realize what I'm going to say will be hard for a Calvinist to understand and even harder to accept, and I am prepared to receive charges of heresy, etc., but here goes: Anyone who comes to the Father does so by means of Christ--whether they have heard of Christ or not. This is because of the universality of the Light of Christ, given to every human being, as I believe John 1:9 and other verses teach. Concerning Peter's words which you quoted, Robert Barclay, early Quaker theologian (converted from Calvinism, BTW) says, and I concur: "I confess there is no other name to be saved by, but salvation lieth not in the literal but the experimental knowledge."

Incidentally, the Quakers got their belief in the "Inner Ligth of Christ" from the General Baptists who were influenced by the Mennonites. Of course, Particular or Calvinist Baptists were influenced by Reformed Protestantism which is the antithesis of Anabaptist doctrine.