Thoughts on Arminianism (for a change)

[FriendofSpurgeon]

Please see summary of Arminian beliefs. Do you agree/disagree that this is a correct summary?


"I was born with a free will. With the ability to choose right from wrong. Good over evil. Righteousness instead of unrighteousness. God sent Jesus to die on the cross to save everybody from their sins. And the Holy Spirit calls everyone to repent.

I was lucky --- I heard the Gospel. And I made the smart choice -- I responded to the Gospel. I made the right decision --- I made a decision for Christ. I put my faith and my trust in Jesus and accepted Him as my Savior. Everybody could have. But I did.

You see, salvation is part God, part me. God provided salvation through Jesus and I provided the faith. And working together, I have been saved. And as long as I keep placing my trust in Him, I will continue to be saved."

 

[Claudia_T]

You see, salvation is part God, part me. God provided salvation through Jesus and I provided the faith. And working together, I have been saved. And as long as I keep placing my trust in Him, I will continue to be saved."

Everything I agreed with till this part and here is where I keep noticing Calvinists "assign" ideas to us which really are not there. Its like they WANT to believe that that is what we believe and they refuse to listen to what we really believe.

Salvation is all of God. But I have a choice to respond to that. Just because I decide that I want to accept God's overtures doesnt mean its partly me doing the saving, thats silly.

That would be like if you were hanging on the side of a clif and about to fall off and a rescue guy came to save you.... he tells you he's there to save you but you refuse to lift your hands up to take the rope he throws down to you because you think if you do you are insulting him and doing part of the saving. Isnt that silly? especially if it is your Creator and He's the one who gave you the hands in the first place to be used. well guess what? He gave you a brain and the ability to make a choice.

Thats why Jesus said "Take MY yoke upon you and I will give thee REST".

The yoke represents what holds the two oxen together... they work together. God works and man works. If we hook up with Jesus then we work through His power but that doesnt mean we be an oxen that sits down and lets the other one drag him around on the ground. Thats not what Jesus meant by "rest".

Think of the parable of the Sower. Some seed falls into good ground, other into bad ground... weeds choke the seed out, the worldly cares choke the seed out... etc...

Well God didnt ask us to leave the weeds there or the cares of the world either, we CHOSE to leave that there...

It would be awfully silly if Jesus told that parable and God had caused us to be bad ground, wouldnt it? Not point in telling the story then.

 

[BobRyan]

Please see summary of Arminian beliefs. Do you agree/disagree that this is a correct summary?

No.

The Armainian statement can be summed up in three statements.

John 3:16 "God so loved THE WORLD that He gave"... yes really.

Rev 3 "Behold I stand at the door and knock - if anyone opens the door I WILL come in and fellowship with Him" -- yes really -

John 12:32 "God DRAWS all mankind to himself" and the drawing of God ENABLES the choice that depravity DISABLES (as even Calvinists admit)

"I was born with a free will. With the ability to choose right from wrong. Good over evil

Wrong.

It is only because God supernaturally placed emnity between mankind and satan AND He draws ALL mankind - that you were ENABLED to choose anything at all.

. God sent Jesus to die on the cross to save everybody from their sins. And the Holy Spirit calls everyone to repent.

Two sentences right in the entire summary.

That is pretty good for a Calvinist.

I was lucky --- I heard the Gospel. And I made the smart choice -- I responded to the Gospel. I made the right decision --- I made a decision for Christ. I put my faith and my trust in Jesus and accepted Him as my Savior. Everybody could have.

"Lucky" that God soveregnly chose to CONVICT THE WORLD John 16 and to DRAW ALL mankind John 12:32 and to place emnity between mankind and Satan.

You see, salvation is part God, part me. God provided salvation through Jesus and I provided the faith. And working together, I have been saved. And as long as I keep placing my trust in Him, I will continue to be saved."

Wrong.

Unto each one is GIVEN a measure of faith. Faith is a gift. Rom 12.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Rippon]

Everyone in the world is not given a measure of faith -- only those in the Body of Christ .

 

[BobRyan]

All the world is DRAWN John 12:32

ALL the world is CONVICTED john 16

ALL the world is ENLIGHTENED John 1:5-8

ALL the World is not saved because like Adam they do not all choose the light EVEN though FOR all "Christ stands at the door and knocks".

"Coming into the World He ENLIGHTENS everyone of mankind".

To EACH one is given a measure of faith to respond - but not all will.

 

[Nicholas25]

Some people never get convicted by the Holy Spirit becaue there heart never gets in a place where it can be convicted. Some people's hearts are to hard.

Salvation is what Christ does through me; not what I do. The thing is I have to keep sin out of my life with the help of the Holy Spirit because sin comes between us and God. We can allow so much sin in our lives that we quench the Spirit of God. I do agree that most Calvanists and most who believe in eternal security don't correctly understand Arminianism.

 

[donnA]

The bible says man is dead in his sin. if no one has never noticed, dead men don't ahve choices. when's the last time you saw a dead man chose to be alive all on his own.

 

[J.D.]

Actually BobRyan is right inasmuch as the OP more closely describes Pelagianism than it does Arminianism. But unfortunately, it does describe the beliefs of most church people.

It looks like a strawman argument, but some people even agree to the terms of the strawman. So desparate they are to deny God His sovereignty and keep their little straw of self righteousness in bringing about their own salvation.

 

[Dustin]

Everyone in the world is not given a measure of faith -- only those in the Body of Christ .

The measure of faith verse got me out of a bad church, they told me not to pray for an increase of faith because everybody already had a measure of faith, even though the Church in Acts prayed for that exact thing. I mean we have grace, but we always need MORE, same thing with faith. Grace and saving faith are things given only by God.

 

[BobRyan]

All convicted of sin and righteousness and judgment John 16 (yes "really)

So that they are "without Excuse" Rom 1 for what is "CLEARLY seen" (yes "really")

ALL drawn to Christ John 12:32 (yes Really)

"Behold I stand at the door and knock if anyone OPENS..." Rev 3:21

To EACH one given a measure of faith to respond - to OPEN ...

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

God said HE "Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment"

Yes "really".

But then there is the "no not really group"

Some people never get convicted by the Holy Spirit .

The fact that a person choses to harden their heart against the conviction of the Holy Spirit (not something a dead person can choose to do) does not negate the fact that The Spirit IS convicting them never-the-less.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

Everything I agreed with till this part and here is where I keep noticing Calvinists "assign" ideas to us which really are not there. Its like they WANT to believe that that is what we believe and they refuse to listen to what we really believe.

Salvation is all of God. But I have a choice to respond to that. Just because I decide that I want to accept God's overtures doesnt mean its partly me doing the saving, thats silly.

That would be like if you were hanging on the side of a clif and about to fall off and a rescue guy came to save you.... he tells you he's there to save you but you refuse to lift your hands up to take the rope he throws down to you because you think if you do you are insulting him and doing part of the saving. Isnt that silly? especially if it is your Creator and He's the one who gave you the hands in the first place to be used. well guess what? He gave you a brain and the ability to make a choice. quote]

Thank you Claudia. Let’s use your example. So, you are hanging off the side of the cliff and about to fall off. You are thrown a rope and asked to take it.

If you don’t reach out on your own and grab the rope, then you are going to stay on that cliff.

However, if – “you use your brain and the ability to make a choice” as you say – you reach out and grab the rope, then you are saved, right? Of course, you being saved from the cliff is mainly due to the person who threw the rope – but not entirely. You have to take the initiative and reach out and take the rope. If not, you stay on the cliff.

It’s the same with salvation. God provides salvation, but you have to reach out and take it. In other words, it’s mainly God, but it’s up to you too.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

FOS: It’s the same with salvation. God provides salvation, but you have to reach out and take it. In other words, it’s mainly God, but it’s up to you too.

HP: Salvation is not ‘mainly of God’ but entirely designed and made possible by God. Just the same, it is by God’s own design that He created a man with a free will that can either accept or reject his offer. God clearly mandated conditions for man to fulfill in order to receive His gift of salvation. He is sovereign you know. If God in His sovereignty decides to demand conditions to be fulfilled in order to receive His gift, is He not able to do that? What says that He cannot do that, and that without any merit on man’s part?

 

[BobRyan]

Thank you Claudia. Let’s use your example. So, you are hanging off the side of the cliff and about to fall off. You are thrown a rope and asked to take it.

If you don’t reach out on your own and grab the rope, then you are going to stay on that cliff.

However, if – “you use your brain and the ability to make a choice” as you say – you reach out and grab the rope, then you are saved, right? Of course, you being saved from the cliff is mainly due to the person who threw the rope – but not entirely. You have to take the initiative and reach out and take the rope. If not, you stay on the cliff.

It’s the same with salvation. God provides salvation, but you have to reach out and take it. In other words, it’s mainly God, but it’s up to you too.

That is correct because the ALTERNATIVE is simply to have God arbitrarily select some to be saved and others to be tossed aside - making the difference the FAULT OF GOD!

But the fact that God DRAWS ALL instead of "just the arbitrarily selected FEW" -- means that God is NOT to blame for those times when mankind chooses NOT to accept eternal life.

(Never hand a Calvinist a million dollars because if you do -- then when they reach out their hand to accept the free gift they will always walk away saying "LOOK WHAT I EARNED TODAY").:laugh:

IF anyone hears my voice AND OPENS THE DOOR -- THEN I WILL come in and fellowship -- Rev 3:20

In Christ,

Bob

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

HP: Salvation is not ‘mainly of God’ but entirely designed and made possible by God. Just the same, it is by God’s own design that He created a man with a free will that can either accept or reject his offer. God clearly mandated conditions for man to fulfill in order to receive His gift of salvation. He is sovereign you know. If God in His sovereignty decides to demand conditions to be fulfilled in order to receive His gift, is He not able to do that? What says that He cannot do that, and that without any merit on man’s part?

OK. God is sovereign in the design of His salvation and is made possible by God. No merit is required. However, there are "conditions" that must be fulfilled in order to receive salvation. Here, I assume that you mean you must believe - you must have faith, right?

I'm a math guy, so hopefully you won't mind me putting it in a formula. If so, it would go something like this then -- God's offer + My faith = Salvation.

 

[Jarthur001]

No.

The Armainian statement can be summed up in three statements.

John 3:16 "God so loved THE WORLD that He gave"... yes really.

Rev 3 "Behold I stand at the door and knock - if anyone opens the door I WILL come in and fellowship with Him" -- yes really -

John 12:32 "God DRAWS all mankind to himself" and the drawing of God ENABLES the choice that depravity DISABLES (as even Calvinists admit)
in Christ,

Bob

Hello Bob,

If this is the sum of the Armainian view, you have made it very easy to talk about. I would like to address a few things. 1st I need your help in understanding some of what you said. I want to make sure I understand you, before I reply.

1st...When you say God draws all of mankind to himself, would you tell me what this means in detail?

Please make it fresh. The old cut and paste has been read by all so many times, I can say it back to you.

Thanks.

In Christ...James

 

[Rippon]

Bob Ryan , you don't do justice to the Scriptures .

In Romans 12 believers are addressed . I am talking of your pet verse 3 ... "the measure of faith God has given you . " But continue reading . 4: " Just as each of us has one body with many members , and these members do not all have the same function (5) so in Christ we who are many form one body , and and each member belongs to all the others .(6) We have different gifts ,, according to the grace given us ... "

Yeah , the verses are addressed to believers . They are the only ones who receive grace .

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

FOS: I'm a math guy, so hopefully you won't mind me putting it in a formula. If so, it would go something like this then -- God's offer + My faith = Salvation.

HP: An apple plus a orange does not equal a watermelon. God’s offer is thought of in the sense of ‘that for the sake of’ why our faith is thought of in the sense of ‘not without which.’ We are saved ‘for the sake of God’s offer, but it will not be accomplished ‘without’ our repentance and faith.

You are trying to add the grounds of salvation with the conditions of salvation to equal salvation. That cannot be done. To try serves no earthly purpose other than to add fodder to a paper duck you are trying to create to shoot at.

 

[Claudia_T]

Hello Bob,

If this is the sum of the Armainian view, you have made it very easy to talk about. I would like to address a few things. 1st I need your help in understanding some of what you said. I want to make sure I understand you, before I reply.

1st...When you say God draws all of mankind to himself, would you tell me what this means in detail?

Please make it fresh. The old cut and paste has been read by all so many times, I can say it back to you.

Thanks.

In Christ...James

Jesus died on the cross, when you look at that it draws you to the love of God.. and leads you to repentence if you dont resist this drawing.

Every one in the world is granted permission to look.

its not like only certain ones God picks out can look

Jn:12:32: And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

 

[Jarthur001]

Jesus died on the cross, when you look at that it draws you to the love of God.. and leads you to repentence if you dont resist this drawing.

Every one in the world is granted permission to look.

its not like only certain ones God picks out can look

Jn:12:32: And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Thanks Claudia for your reply.

When you say "when you look, it draws you to love God", do you mean that people are drawn to be saved when they are drawn? Is it a longing to come to God and be saved? Is it to learn more?

When you say every one is granted permission to look, does all mankind have the opportunity to look? Can a person be saved without looking?

In Christ...James