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Thoughts on Arminianism (for a change)
- Thread starter FriendofSpurgeon
- Start date
Jarthur001 said:
Hi James.
well I think of Nicodemus and how Jesus was basically giving him the plan of salvation when He talked about moses and the serpent and lifting it up and being born again. Remember all of that?
The purpose of looking is to be born again meaning going to the foot of the cross in repentance.
When we realize Jesus is there because of what we have done it ought to make us sorry for our sins..
sorry enough to repent of them... then the Spirit can cause us to be born again. Meaning we become a new creature as spoken of in Romans 6
I will try to answer to more of what you asked later.
BobRyan said:
I always enjoy attempts at humor. Based on your comment, I assume that you agree with the analogy I set forth to Claudia.
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
OK. I think everyone could agree that "God is sovereign in the design of His salvation and is made possible by God." Even if the Scripture stated that one needed to climb Mt. Everest four times in a lifetime to attain salvation – we could still say salvation is designed and made possible by God.
So you are saying this: that we are saved entirely by God based upon certain “conditions” which you later identify in the follow up post as “our repentance and faith.” Is that correct?
Claudia_T said:
I've seen many people defend the idea that people can be "drawn" to God by "seeing" how much He loves them. Stories of the cricifixion, some of them embelished, are given to cause people to feel sorry for what their sin did to Christ. One would think that the "Passion of Christ" movie would have brought world-wide revival.
But it didn't. And neither has all the stories of a weak, pitiful Christ done it.
Why? Because the hardened, reprobate, unregenerate, non-elect sinner, the more passionately the Gospel is preached the sillier it is, or, the more superstitious it seems.
Everyone assumes that "drawing" means "wooing". Have you ever "wooed" water from a well?
The only way anyone can repent and believe is when God's Spirit enters the heart and changes it. This doesn't happen by invitation. The natural man does not welcome God's Spirit. Man shuns Him.
I wonder sometimes if folks have witnessed as much as I have (speaking as a fool, trying not to boast). My experiences with hard hearts is what has driven me to scripture to seek answers. I garauntee you that I know people that will not respond to the Gospel, no matter what good works are done for them, no matter how lovingly it's presented, no matter how dire the warnings.
Are these people "drawn" to Christ? How about Herod, when was he "drawn" to Christ. How about Hitler? And Stalin? And Nero, when was Nero drawn to Christ?
They were no more drawn to Christ than a stump.
So what did Christ mean by "draw all men to me"? It's clear from the immediate context that he meant "men of all nations and types". What do we find precedent to Christ's declaration? Who were the men that said "Sir, we would see Jesus"? They were Greeks. The crucifixion of Christ signified the opening of the door of faith to the whole world of nations and people, not just the Jews. This is the context, and it's the only way that the "drawing" makes sense. The Gospel went out into the whole world, and people of all kinds were "drawn", and saved to God's glory.
J.D. said:
well of course, When Jesus was talking to Nicodemus about Moses lifting up the serpent in the wilderness (representing Jesus on the cross), He was talking about being born again of the Spirit. read it:
John 3:
1: There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2: The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3: Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4: Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5: Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6: That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7: Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8: The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9: Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
10: Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11: Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12: If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
13: And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
14: And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Jarthur001
Active Member
Claudia_T said:
Hello Claudia,
Do you feel that the lifting up in verse 14 from above, draws men to salvation?
Jarthur001 said:
Hi JAuthur,
The serpents in the wilderness kept biting people and they were dying.. but those who looked up...at the serpent on the pole, they lived.
So that tells you something, right?
and the verses DO say that whoever believed in him would not perish but have everlasting life... and so yes, looking up at Jesus on the cross draws men to Himself that they might live. "Look and Live".
14: And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Im not sure if I answered according to what you were wanting to find out about my thoughts, I hope that I did
Doubting Thomas
Active Member
Congratulations! I wasn't aware that there were now TWO omniscient beings in the universe, but I guess one, who has peered into the hearts of men--whom he has never even met--over the span over their entire lives and has declared with apparent certainty that they were NEVER "drawn" to Christ, could perhaps at least stake a claim for belonging in that category. :applause:J.D. said:
The two guys on the crosses next to Jesus looked at Him but they had differing attitudes
Luke 23:
39: And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
40: But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
41: And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
Luke 23:
39: And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
40: But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
41: And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
Well I'm not omniscient but I have no reason to believe any of those I mentioned were saved. But I'll leave that up to God.
As far as His dealings with them while on earth, scripture does give us some insight. If you insist that God is "wooing" people to be saved, I'll agree inasmuch as God has shed His goodness on all people without exception, which "leads" them to repentance. But do they repent? No, for after their hardness and impenetent hearts they treasure up wrath against the day of the Wrath of Almighty God. Now this "leading" did not bring them to repentence, but when Christ says "no man can come to me, except it were given unto him of my Father", he speaks of people that do enter into rest, that actually are delivered to the place of repentance and faith. Those that are "drawn" to Christ are not those that "draw" back unto perdition.
The will of God can not be frustrated. His Spirit will bring about the birth of His elect children.
"And all the inhabitants of the earth [are] reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and [among] the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?"
As far as His dealings with them while on earth, scripture does give us some insight. If you insist that God is "wooing" people to be saved, I'll agree inasmuch as God has shed His goodness on all people without exception, which "leads" them to repentance. But do they repent? No, for after their hardness and impenetent hearts they treasure up wrath against the day of the Wrath of Almighty God. Now this "leading" did not bring them to repentence, but when Christ says "no man can come to me, except it were given unto him of my Father", he speaks of people that do enter into rest, that actually are delivered to the place of repentance and faith. Those that are "drawn" to Christ are not those that "draw" back unto perdition.
The will of God can not be frustrated. His Spirit will bring about the birth of His elect children.
"And all the inhabitants of the earth [are] reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and [among] the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?"
J.D. said:
Hi JD
To me it seems like the one man was thinking of himself alone and being saved, interestingly enough.
The other man was actually looking AT CHRIST and seeing that Jesus was an innocent sufferer for their sins, so you see what I mean? The one was looking at Christ.... even in that little scenerio we can see it
Luke 23:
39: And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us.
40: But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
41: And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
Hey EVERYBODY,
Take a look at the post I made above, isnt that interesting?
The one man is only concerned with saving HIMSELF
The other man actually is looking AT CHRIST and realizing that He is innocently suffering for his sins and he realizes he himself is the one who deserved to die.
consequently two different reactions!
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Take a look at the post I made above, isnt that interesting?
The one man is only concerned with saving HIMSELF
The other man actually is looking AT CHRIST and realizing that He is innocently suffering for his sins and he realizes he himself is the one who deserved to die.
consequently two different reactions!
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
This doesn't really take omniscience does it? Since the Bible says that all who are drawn will come (John 6:44; John 6:63-65), then we can say with certainty that those who do not come were not drawn.
(And now watch the novel interpretations of John 6 that conclude Jesus didn't actually mean what the words mean. And then tell me who is willing to adjust the Scriptures to fit their theology.)
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
FriendofSpurgeon said:
In The Bible we find "BEHOLD I STAND at the door and knock if anyone hears my voice AND OPENS the DOOR I WILL then COME IN and fellowship with them" --
Calvinism responds -- well then restoration with God is MAINLY Christ but not ENTIRELY - so that is a bad model.. Better to say "BEHOLD I BUST DOWN THE DOOR and ENTER for you are DEAD and unnable to open it".:applause:
Calvinism's Bible works so much better for Calvinism than the real one!:BangHead: