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Thoughts on Arminianism (for a change)

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Pastor Larry said:
Who denies the sequences that salvation results from faith? I presume that is your point. It is what Calvinism also believes. So I am not sure who you are addressing here.

"Old Regular" comes to mind. He informs us that when the Calvinist insists that "Regeneration must come before Conversion" this is what is meant.

Originally posted by OldRegular:
I have posted the following on the thread: The Sovereignty of God in Salvation. I thought it might be informative here.

Regeneration

The initial event in salvation is regeneration, the theological term synonymous with rebirth or being born again. Regeneration is solely the work of God the Holy Spirit whereby those who are spiritually dead in trespass and sin are made spiritual alive and are brought into union with Jesus Christ. Whereas the unregenerate person has no disposition, interest, or desire for the things of God the regenerate person is a new creation and is now receptive to the ‘effectual call’ of the Holy Spirit.

Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews, came to Jesus Christ by night to question Him.

John 3:3, KJV
3. Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Various forms of expression are employed in the Scriptures, to denote the change that occurs at the new birth or regeneration:

1. It is taking away the heart of stone, and giving a heart of flesh, a new heart.

Ezekiel 36:26, KJV
26. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

2. It is putting the law in the heart.

Hebrews 8:10, KJV
10. For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

3. It is quickening or making alive.

John 6:63, KJV
63. It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life.

John 5:21, KJV
21. For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth [them]; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

4. It is a resurrection from the spiritual death.

John 5:25, KJV
25. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

Dagg notes [Manual of Theology, pages 277ff]: “So great is the change produced, that the subject of it is called a new creature as if proceeding, like Adam, directly from the creating hand of God; and he is said to be renewed, as being restored to the image of God, in which man was originally formed.”

2 Corinthians 5:17, KJV
17. Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Dagg further notes:

“The change is moral. The body is unchanged; and the identity of the mind is not destroyed. The individual is conscious of being the same person that he was before; but a new direction is given to the active powers of the mind, and new affections are brought into exercise. The love of God is shed abroad in the heart by the Holy Ghost. No love to God had previously existed there; for the carnal heart is enmity against God. Love is the fulfilling of the law, the principle of all holy obedience; and when love is produced in the heart, the law of God is written there. As a new principle of action, inciting to a new mode of life, it renders the man a new creature. The production of love in the heart by the Holy Spirit, is the regeneration, or the new birth; for he that loveth, is born of God.”

“The mode in which the Holy Spirit effects this change, is beyond our understanding. All God's ways are unsearchable; and we might as well attempt to explain how he created the world, as how he new-creates the soul. With reference to this subject, the Saviour said, The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.[John 3:8, KJV] We know, from the Holy Scriptures, that God employs his truth in the regeneration of the soul. Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.[James 1:18, KJV] Love to God necessarily implies knowledge of God, and this knowledge it is the province of truth to impart. But knowledge is not always connected with love. The devils know, but do not love; and wicked men delight not to retain the knowledge of God, because their knowledge of him is not connected with love. The mere presentation of the truth to the mind, is not all that is needed, in producing love to God in the heart.”

God through the richness of His grace has granted to His elect spiritual life so that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in [His] kindness toward us in Christ Jesus[/b].

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/35/1533.html#000005

 
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Dustin

New Member
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
HP: 2Ti 3:16 ALL Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:” That verse instructs any unrepentant individual to repent.

Of course. But that doesn't mean you can take any one verse and say it means anything you want it to mean. 2 Timothy 3:16 isn't a liscense to take the rest of the bible out of context.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
The full "sequence" for Calvinism was stated by OldRegular as the following

If we consider salvation, this blessing of grace, as a multifaceted gem, we may better appreciate both the gift of salvation and the work of God, in particular God the Holy Spirit, in the salvation of those whom God the Father, before the foundation of the world, has chosen in Jesus Christ.


1. Regeneration

The initial event in salvation is regeneration, the theological term synonymous with ‘rebirth’ or ‘being born again’. Regeneration is solely the work of God the Holy Spirit whereby those who are spiritually dead in trespass and sin are made spiritual alive and are brought into union with Jesus Christ; they are saved [Ephesians 2:1-9]. Whereas the unregenerate person has no disposition, interest, or desire for the things of God the regenerate person is a new creation and is now receptive to the ‘effectual call’ of the Holy Spirit.


2. Union with Jesus Christ

Union with Jesus Christ is an integral part, a condition, of God’s electing grace, occurs simultaneous with regeneration, and is solely the work of God the Holy Spirit. Martyn Lloyd-Jons in his book God the Holy Spirit notes that “our spiritual life is drawn directly from Jesus Christ. We are sustained by Him through the indwelling Holy Spirit.” Furthermore, it is through this union that all the blessings of salvation are bestowed upon the “true believer” [Ephesisns 1:3,23; 2:4-7].


3. Effectual Calling

Insofar as man himself is aware, the initial event in salvation is the effectual calling of the Holy Spirit. It is an observable fact that not all who hear the Gospel accept it and come to salvation. Some do and some do not. The Apostle Paul tells us why in 1 Corinthians 2:14, KJV. ...

4. Conversion

Conversion is the result of conscious act of a regenerate person in which he responds to the effectual call and turns to God in faith and repentance. Conversion is in reality an acknowledgment that one has experienced regeneration. It is important to realize that conversion is a personal transaction between God and man. Therefore, since no two people are alike we should not expect that they will have the same conversion experience.


4a. Saving Faith

Saving faith is an essential aspect of conversion and, though exercised by man, is itself a gift of God [Ephesians 2:8,9] The prophet Habakkuk who writes [2: 4b]: the just shall live by his faith, is echoed by the Apostle Paul in that great faith chapter of the New Testament, Hebrews 11, which clearly demonstrates that faith is, in fact, a way of life.


4b. Repentance

Like faith repentance is also an essential aspect of conversion. Jesus Christ teaches:

Luke 13:3, [1769 KJV]
I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

However, the repentance associated with conversion must be proceeded by faith, that is, a person cannot truly repent of his sins against God until he believes that he has sinned against God. If salvation is completely by grace then repentance must also be the gift of God. Faith and repentance are twin graces.


5. Pardon

A righteous God cannot overlook sin for the wages of sin is death [Romans 6.23]. Man is not a sinner because he sins but man sins because he is a sinner. As such he is subject to the wrath of God [Romans 5:12, Romans 1:18]. The penalty for sin could be paid only by the death of one who was without sin, Jesus Christ [1 Peter 3:18, 1 Peter 2:24, Philippians 2:8, Romans 8:3]. ...

6. Justification

Justification is a judicial act whereby the unjust sinner is declared righteous in the sight of a just and holy God. John Dagg in his Manuel of Theology [page 265] notes that justification is a higher blessing of grace than pardon. Pardon frees from the penalty that follows sin, justification frees us from the guilt of sin. Justification is by faith alone [Romans 5:1] and that faith itself is the gift of God [Ephesians 2:8,9].


7. Adoption


8. Sanctification



9. Perseverance or Security of the True Believer

The doctrine of the ‘Perseverance of the Saints’ or the ‘Security of the True Believer’ is one that is cherished by most Baptists. [Freewill Baptists believe that a true believer can loose their salvation.] As far as I am aware only the Baptists and Presbyterians among all denominations hold to a strict doctrine of the ‘Perseverance of the Saints’ or the ‘Security of the Believer’. The statement from the 1677 [or 1689] Baptist Confession of Faith [Lumpkin, Baptist Confessions of Faith, page 272] expresses both thoughts as shown in the following excerpt:

Those whom God hath accepted in the Beloved, effectually called and sanctified by His Spirit, and given the precious faith of His elect unto, can neither totally nor finally fall from the state of grace; but shall certainly persevere therein to the end and be eternally saved, seeing the gifts and calling of God are without repentance, (whence He still begets and nourishish them in Faith, Repentance, Love, Joy, Hope, and all the graces of the Spirit unto immortality).

10. Assurance of Salvation

If we do not believe that True Believer’s are kept by the power of God and will persevere to the end it is doubtful that we can ever have any assurance of our salvation. Therefore, every passage of Scripture that demonstrates the security of the believer should provide the believer assurance of that security. The first basis for assurance is the testimony of the Word of God. The second basis for assurance of salvation is subjective. The Apostle John tells us [1 John 5:10]: He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself. That withess is the indwelling Holy Spirit


11. Glorification


http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/35/1534.html#000001

Some numbered sections were shortened to make this in one post
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Dustin said:
Revelation 3:20 was written to the members of the church at Laodicea, calling believers to repentence, not to the unconverted in the world. Verse 19 is needed to understand the immediate context. Verse 22 helps alot also, "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. " I don't know who started using that as an evangelical passage, but they need some serious hermanutic help. My bet is Wesley or Finney.

Each time Calvinists try this wild solution they get tangled up in their own answer.

1. Is it your position that Christ DOES NOT stand at the door of the lost and knock - only the SAVED ALREADY IN CHURCH are being asked to OPEN the door?

NO EVANGELISM???

2. Is it your position that the SAVED condition is the condition of "BEING ALONE on the INSIDE with Christ on the OUTSIDE waiting to come in and have fellowship"??

3. Is it your position that the NT view of the LOST world was NOT the evangelistic view of Rev 3:20 but rather it was that God was ONLY INSIDE the chruch KNOCKING on doors waiting on the ALREADY SAVED to open?

For those Calvinists that suppose that UNION WITH CHRIST is delayed after salvation such that Christ is STILL ON THE OUTSIDE knocking on the door AFTER salvation (as the author above seems to suggest) I refer you to the post above this one where OldRegular shows us the way Calvinists reject that idea.

In Christ,

Bob
 
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J.D.

Active Member
Site Supporter
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
HP: God brought influences to bear upon his heart, and the malefactor utilized the abilities God granted to him as a free moral agent to repent and believe. The 'work' of salvation was wrought in his heart by God as a result of the malefactor fulfilling the conditions God set forth for salvation.

If you put a period (.) behind the word "God" in the second sentence, you've got it.

But after the word God, you contradict everything that precedes it.

What Godly "condition" could possibly exist in the malefactor's heart that was not first conditioned by God?
 

Dustin

New Member
I'll answer each one in order, since you numbered them.

BobRyan said:
Each time Calvinists try this wild solution they get tangled up in their own answer.

1. Is it your position that Christ DOES NOT stand at the door of the lost and knock - only the SAVED ALREADY IN CHURCH are being asked to OPEN the door?

NO EVANGELISM???

2. Is it your position that the SAVED condition is the condition of "BEING ALONE on the INSIDE with Christ on the OUTSIDE waiting to come in and have fellowship"??

3. Is it your position that the NT view of the LOST world was NOT the evangelistic view of Rev 3:20 but rather it was that God was ONLY INSIDE the chruch KNOCKING on doors waiting on the ALREADY SAVED to open?

For those Calvinists that suppose that UNION WITH CHRIST is delayed after salvation such that Christ is STILL ON THE OUTSIDE knocking on the door AFTER salvation (as the author above seems to suggest) I refer you to the post above this one where OldRegular shows us the way Calvinists reject that idea.

In Christ,

Bob

First off, you're missing the point entirely. The context of the verse denies your position. Christ is addressing the churches in the surrounding passages. Nowhere in the text in question says anything about Christ knocking on the door of every unconverted heart in the world. Your position doesn't stand in the context of the passage, no matter what you want that one individual verse to say.

1. It IS my position that Christ doesn't stand at the door of the lost and knock, waiting, most times in vain, for the lost person to open the door. The context doesn't allow such a view. In the passage, Christ is calling the elect in the church of Laocidea to repent because they claimed ( v. 17) that they were in need of nothing (they had much material possessions) and in good standing with God, but they were really weren't at all. Christ, in verse 19, is rebuking and chastening them because He loves them, and tells them to be zealous and repent. NOWHERE in ANY of these passages is an exhortation for evangelism, as it's lately been erroneously taught, or does it specifically say that Christ is calling the entire unconverted world to repentence. It's just not there.

NO EVANGELISM? No, not in this passage Bob.

2. Another misreading of the verse based on presuppostions dealt with in the first question.

3. Same as number 2.

Your whole view of the passage is twisted because you still think Rev 3:20 is an evangelistic passage.

That's it.

Soli Deo Gloria,
Dustin
 

Jarthur001

Active Member
Claudia_T said:
Oh I guess you guys are trying to figure out if Jesus and people seeing Him lifted up on the cross draws people to see Him and be saved... so that every person has the chance to be saved and not just "the chosen few", right?

Well...I was going to "draw" this out for a while, but as you can tell, my posting time is limited right now. Sorry about that.

So I'll cut to the chase.. :)

I just posted on this on another thread.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=927633&postcount=234

As you will see, the logic will not work in the freewill view. Sorry about that.



In Christ...James
 
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JD: What Godly "condition" could possibly exist in the malefactor's heart that was not first conditioned by God?

HP: Can you explain yourself here? The conditions of salvation are not something God does, or something God coerces, or something God forces upon man in any way shape or form. We are responsible moral agents, created that way by God, and as such are responsible to formulate, i.e., create, our intents dealing with such as ideas as repentance and faith.

Both faith and repentance are acts of the will chosen by the will as ultimate intents of the heart in response to God's influence upon our lives. They are both works that God commands man to perform. God does not do them for us. We are responsible agents and as such are the creators of our moral intents. No one can have faith or repent for us, not even God. God commands us to do those things in response to the influences He places upon us. His influences in these realms, as in all moral issues, are of a passive nature as opposed to coercive influence.
 
JArthur001: If a free-willer will be true to form, they would ask does "all" mean "all" just as they do in other passages. In the KJV the passage reads.."all men" are drawn. Are all mean drawn? Is this what we see?

HP: First, does the drawing all men receive consist of knowledge of God, ability to understand and comprehend His moral law to some degree, or is it being drawn to salvation? I say it is not that all men are drawn to salvation, for all have not heard the gospel message. If you think they have, or can show us a passage that tells us they have, I would be interested in reading it.

I say the KJV does NOT say that all men are drawn to salvation. You have refuted nothing in relationship to man having a free will that I can see.
 

Jarthur001

Active Member
Heavenly Pilgrim said:


HP: First, does the drawing all men receive consist of knowledge of God, ability to understand and comprehend His moral law to some degree, or is it being drawn to salvation? I say it is not that all men are drawn to salvation, for all have not heard the gospel message. If you think they have, or can show us a passage that tells us they have, I would be interested in reading it.

I say the KJV does NOT say that all men are drawn to salvation. You have refuted nothing in relationship to man having a free will that I can see.

Hello HP,

Refuted nothing? Hummmmm. How about the whole free-will idea?

If what you say is the case, then free-willers will have to stop saying this passage is talking about drawing all men to salvation. Right?

This is why i asked...

Hello Bob,

If this is the sum of the Armainian view, you have made it very easy to talk about. I would like to address a few things. 1st I need your help in understanding some of what you said. I want to make sure I understand you, before I reply.

1st...When you say God draws all of mankind to himself, would you tell me what this means in detail?

When Bob said this...

Originally Posted by BobRyan
No.

The Armainian statement can be summed up in three statements.

John 3:16 "God so loved THE WORLD that He gave"... yes really.

Rev 3 "Behold I stand at the door and knock - if anyone opens the door I WILL come in and fellowship with Him" -- yes really -

John 12:32 "God DRAWS all mankind to himself" and the drawing of God ENABLES the choice that depravity DISABLES (as even Calvinists admit)
in Christ,

Bob

and....
Originally Posted by Claudia_T
Jesus died on the cross, when you look at that it draws you to the love of God.. and leads you to repentence if you dont resist this drawing.

Every one in the world is granted permission to look.

its not like only certain ones God picks out can look

Jn:12:32: And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=926234&postcount=19
I said..
Thanks Claudia for your reply.

When you say "when you look, it draws you to love God", do you mean that people are drawn to be saved when they are drawn? Is it a longing to come to God and be saved? Is it to learn more?

When you say every one is granted permission to look, does all mankind have the opportunity to look? Can a person be saved without looking?

and Bob even said...

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=925255&postcount=5

All the world is DRAWN John 12:32

ALL the world is CONVICTED john 16

ALL the world is ENLIGHTENED John 1:5-8

ALL the World is not saved because like Adam they do not all choose the light EVEN though FOR all "Christ stands at the door and knocks".

"Coming into the World He ENLIGHTENS everyone of mankind".

To EACH one is given a measure of faith to respond - but not all will.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=925225&postcount=3


again here...
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=925300&postcount=10


So which is it? It seems free-willers want to have it both ways. :)

What is the drawning? If its not to salvation, then one MAJOR point falls on the freewill side.

Now...when it comes to this statement.."for all have not heard the gospel message." I and all other Calvinist would say amen brother. This is only part of why we believe in election. Why did some hear, and some do not? No answer...other then election.


So...Are all men drawn to God....to salvation.....or are they not?


OK..there were "3 major points"...going by Bob. Thats one down...two to go. :)


In Christ...James
 
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Jaurthur001: So which is it? It seems free-willers want to have it both ways.
Now...when it comes to this statement.."for all have not heard the gospel message." I and all other Calvinist would say amen brother. This is only part of why we believe in election. Why did some hear, and some do not? No answer...other then election.
So...Are all men drawn to God....to salvation.....or are they not?
OK..there were "3 major points"...going by Bob. Thats one down...two to go.

In Christ...James

HP: All men are not all drawn to salvation in any completed sense. I suppose that moral guilt is a necessary part of salvation’s offer. This all men have, yet guilt alone is not synonymous with the gospel message IMO. I totally disagree with BR on this point. Scripture is clear. God presents the offer of salvation to those whom He wills without the least shred of being a respecter of persons. God is under obligation to save no one. He can offer it to whomever He so desires.

Knowing full well I will be taken to task for saying so, I would still say that it is God’s will that NONE should perish, but that all would come to repentance and be saved. God, in His sovereign will, for reasons unknown to any but Himself, has decided that the task of sharing the gospel be placed upon the shoulders of His children. He has limited Himself and his gospel message, for reasons known only to Him, to those that hear and respond to the message. Only in eternity will we if ever understand all the reasons He has chosen to present His gospel to mankind in the manner as He has obviously chosen to so. I propose no reasons or pat answers the many questions that can be raised.

Just the same, there are other truths I know to be true as well. Man’s will is involved without any coercion from God, and that there are some things that man must do in order to be saved. God’ election works in tandem with, not in spite of, or in opposition to, the conditions of salvation God has called upon man to perform. God allows His election to work without the destruction of mans’ freewill. Proof of that is that God, being the Just God He says He is, blames and punishes man for his intents. That is living proof that we are indeed the creators of our moral intents and the author of the intents to respond to His plan of salvation by freely fulfilling the conditions of salvation He has set forth. Those conditions are initially repentance and faith, without which no salvation will be accomplished. We are not saved on for the sake of our repentance and faith, but we will not be saved apart from them either.
 

Pastor Larry

<b>Moderator</b>
Site Supporter
HP: Between what words is the word ‘drawn’ to be penumbrally understood?
I'd skip the big words. They don't work well for you.
HP: There is not the slightest indication in this verse that if the Father draws him he will come that I can see. Explain to the list where your interpretation is stated or implied.
Will Christ raise up those who do not come? Of course not. When you read the verse, without your presuppositions, you see that those who are drawn, come, and are raised up. When you combine that with the whole chapter, it seems undeniable ... unless you approach this chapter with a position that you must maintain. In that case, you are likely to see your position in it.

When Jesus says "All that the Father gives me will come," it is clear that he is referring to the totality of the drawn. In context, the drawing and the giving are clearly synonymous. And there are not drawn or given who do not come.

If you think all are drawn the same, then explain Christ's words about Tyre and Sidon compared to Chorazin and Bethsaida. He says, "If I had done these works there, they would have repented." Christ clearly did not do everything in Tyre and Sidon that he could have to get them to repent. Is that less of a drawing? How do you explain that?
 
HP: There has been a claim that Scripture implies that only the elect are drawn and all that are drawn will come to salvation. These are clearly two points of Calvinism that are NOT supported in Scripture. One point is the ‘L’ in tulip standing for limited atonement, and the other is the ‘I’ in Tulip standing for irresistible grace. It has been floated on the list that these are both substantiated in the passage in question being John 6. I have asked for proof of these assertions by pointing us directly to the passage in this chapter or any other that would substantiate these points.

Pastor Larry gives it a shot with his last post to me. Does he point us to the clear passage that establishes his point? No way. Rather than to do so, Pastor Larry has come to the defense of those claiming that both L and I are set forth in this chapter by claiming first that it is I that must have a preconceived presupposition in order not to see both L and I in this passage as a fact. May I ask the reader how this establishes ‘his’ claim? It shows to me the lack of evidence he has for his own position due to the fact all he can do is beg the question concerning some presupposition he claims I approach the Scripture with. Some evidence that is.

He does make one futile attempt to prove his point by suggesting there is evidence to support his claims, but establishes it by reading into the text his own presupposition. He said,
“When Jesus says "All that the Father gives me will come," it is clear that he is referring to the totality of the drawn. In context, the drawing and the giving are clearly synonymous. And there are not drawn or given who do not come.”
Let the reader read the text. Can PL make such a claim logically from the text alone apart from his own presuppositions? Let me illustrate.

If I were to say that “All the students that were chosen to participate came to the game,” or that “All the students that played in the game were chosen to participate,” can I logically assume that ‘only’ the students that were chosen to participate came to the game, or that only the students that were asked to participate in the game came to the game, or that every student that was invited and asked to come came to the game?

The truth is that there is no logical or exegetical basis that substantiates the points of I or L in this text. Possibly PL or others have another text that would substantiate such claims. We shall see.
 
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Dustin

New Member
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
HP: All men are not all drawn to salvation in any completed sense. I suppose that moral guilt is a necessary part of salvation’s offer. This all men have, yet guilt alone is not synonymous with the gospel message IMO. I totally disagree with BR on this point. Scripture is clear. God presents the offer of salvation to those whom He wills without the least shred of being a respecter of persons. God is under obligation to save no one. He can offer it to whomever He so desires.

Knowing full well I will be taken to task for saying so, I would still say that it is God’s will that NONE should perish, but that all would come to repentance and be saved. God, in His sovereign will, for reasons unknown to any but Himself, has decided that the task of sharing the gospel be placed upon the shoulders of His children. He has limited Himself and his gospel message, for reasons known only to Him, to those that hear and respond to the message. Only in eternity will we if ever understand all the reasons He has chosen to present His gospel to mankind in the manner as He has obviously chosen to so. I propose no reasons or pat answers the many questions that can be raised.

Just the same, there are other truths I know to be true as well. Man’s will is involved without any coercion from God, and that there are some things that man must do in order to be saved. God’ election works in tandem with, not in spite of, or in opposition to, the conditions of salvation God has called upon man to perform. God allows His election to work without the destruction of mans’ freewill. Proof of that is that God, being the Just God He says He is, blames and punishes man for his intents. That is living proof that we are indeed the creators of our moral intents and the author of the intents to respond to His plan of salvation by freely fulfilling the conditions of salvation He has set forth. Those conditions are initially repentance and faith, without which no salvation will be accomplished. We are not saved on for the sake of our repentance and faith, but we will not be saved apart from them either.

Heavenly Pilgrim,

Repentance and faith are essential for salvation, no Calvinist would disagree with that. Those things are given by God. One can't truly repent if he doesn't have faith, and one can't have faith if God in His grace does not give it to him. Augustine used to say, "Give what thou commandest and command what thou wilt." Man, in and of himself, cannot have faith and repent, without God working it in him. When Paul says "by grace you have been saved", he's saying that the basis of salvation is unmerited favor from God (i.e.The only reason you are saved is God's grace). Grace is the basis for faith and repentance, and faith and repentance are the God given means of salvation, Christ Jesus is the God given object of the faith He has given us.

How's that?

Soli Deo Gloria,
Dustin
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan
Each time Calvinists try this wild solution to Rev 3:20 "I Stand at the Door and Knock -- if anyone OPENS the Door" they get tangled up in their own answer.

1. Is it your position that Christ DOES NOT stand at the door of the lost and knock - only the SAVED ALREADY IN CHURCH are being asked to OPEN the door?

NO EVANGELISM???

First off, you're missing the point entirely. The context of the verse denies your position. Christ is addressing the churches in the surrounding passages.
...
NOWHERE in ANY of these passages is an exhortation for evangelism, as it's lately been erroneously taught,

NO EVANGELISM? No, not in this passage

nope - i ask the question above assuming your position and asking you to explain your POV -- please answer the question.

It is facinating that Calivinism must deny that Christ on the OUTSIDE knocking on the door of the sinner who is ALONE and ON THE INSIDE -- as Christ is WAITING for that person to OPEN THE DOOR so that He will then COME In and FELLOWSHIP is NOT Evangelism not in the church nor outsidef of it!! Amazing!!

In the mean time I can show that ALONE on the inside WITHOUT Christ -- is in fact NOT in fellowship with Christ which even by Calvinist standards is LOST.

DUSTIN said -
1. It IS my position that Christ doesn't stand at the door of the lost and knock, waiting,

Find then you define the SAVED state as being separated from Christ - alone and having Christ on the outside waiting and knocking with the big IF "IF ANYONE hears and OPENS the door I WILL THEN COME IN".

No such definition for SAVED=Separated from Christ... Gospel=sepearated from Christ... so you simply make it up.

Dustin said --
In the passage, Christ is calling the elect in the church of Laocidea to repent

Is it your position that each time a saved person sins they LOSE christ - LOSE fellowship with Christ -- and are ALONE and on the inside WITHOUT Christ - with Christ on the OUtSIDE knocking and saying "IF ANYONE hears and OPENS the door I WILL COME in and engage in fellowship with them"??

i.e. they are saved - but APART FROM CHRISt even though Christ said "I will never leave you or forsake you" and even though Paul says that we only stand by our faith in Rom 11?? "You TOO FEAR for if he did no spare them NEITHER will he spare you"???


Bob Said
2. Is it your position that the SAVED condition is the condition of "BEING ALONE on the INSIDE with Christ on the OUTSIDE waiting to come in and have fellowship"??

3. Is it your position that the NT view of the LOST world was NOT the evangelistic view of Rev 3:20 but rather it was that God was ONLY INSIDE the chruch KNOCKING on doors waiting on the ALREADY SAVED to open?

For those Calvinists that suppose that UNION WITH CHRIST is delayed after salvation such that Christ is STILL ON THE OUTSIDE knocking on the door AFTER salvation (as the author above seems to suggest) I refer you to the post above this one where OldRegular shows us the way Calvinists reject that idea.

The bottom line is that Calvinism's twisted confused doctrinal position on salvation, fellowship AND evangelism is fully exposed in their attempts to obfuscate and confuse the text of Rev 3:20 in favor of Calvinism.

In Christ,

Bob
 

Dustin

New Member
Heavenly Pilgrim said:
HP: There has been a claim that Scripture implies that only the elect are drawn and all that are drawn will come to salvation. These are clearly two points of Calvinism that are NOT supported in Scripture. One point is the ‘L’ in tulip standing for limited atonement, and the other is the ‘I’ in Tulip standing for irresistible grace. It has been floated on the list that these are both substantiated in the passage in question being John 6. I have asked for proof of these assertions by pointing us directly to the passage in this chapter or any other that would substantiate these points.

Pastor Larry gives it a shot with his last post to me. Does he point us to the clear passage that establishes his point? No way. Rather than to do so, Pastor Larry has come to the defense of those claiming that both L and I are set forth in this chapter by claiming first that it is I that must have a preconceived presupposition in order not to see both L and I in this passage as a fact. May I ask the reader how this establishes ‘his’ claim? It shows to me the lack of evidence he has for his own position due to the fact all he can do is beg the question concerning some presupposition he claims I approach the Scripture with. Some evidence that is.

He does make one futile attempt to prove his point by suggesting there is evidence to support his claims, but establishes it by reading into the text his own presupposition. He said,
Let the reader read the text. Can PL make such a claim logically from the text alone apart from his own presuppositions? Let me illustrate.

If I were to say that “All the students that were chosen to participate came to the game,” or that “All the students that played in the game were chosen to participate,” can I logically assume that ‘only’ the students that were chosen to participate came to the game, or that only the students that were asked to participate in the game came to the game, or that every student that was invited and asked to come came to the game?
http://monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/doctrinesofgrace.html
The truth is that there is no logical or exegetical basis that substantiates the points of I or L in this text. Possibly PL or others have another text that would substantiate such claims. We shall see.

Limited Atonement (or Particular Redemption):http://www.freegrace.net/scriptures/limited_atonement.htm
Irresistable Grace (or Effectual Calling):http://www.freegrace.net/scriptures/irresistible_grace.htm

For more on these and the other points:http://monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/doctrinesofgrace.html

Hope this helps.

Soli Deo Gloria,
Dustin
 

Dustin

New Member
BobRyan said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan
Each time Calvinists try this wild solution to Rev 3:20 "I Stand at the Door and Knock -- if anyone OPENS the Door" they get tangled up in their own answer.

1. Is it your position that Christ DOES NOT stand at the door of the lost and knock - only the SAVED ALREADY IN CHURCH are being asked to OPEN the door?

NO EVANGELISM???



nope - i ask the question above assuming your position and asking you to explain your POV -- please answer the question.

It is facinating that Calivinism must deny that Christ on the OUTSIDE knocking on the door of the sinner who is ALONE and ON THE INSIDE -- as Christ is WAITING for that person to OPEN THE DOOR so that He will then COME In and FELLOWSHIP is NOT Evangelism not in the church nor outsidef of it!! Amazing!!

In the mean time I can show that ALONE on the inside WITHOUT Christ -- is in fact NOT in fellowship with Christ which even by Calvinist standards is LOST.



Find then you define the SAVED state as being separated from Christ - alone and having Christ on the outside waiting and knocking with the big IF "IF ANYONE hears and OPENS the door I WILL THEN COME IN".

No such definition for SAVED=Separated from Christ... Gospel=sepearated from Christ... so you simply make it up.



Is it your position that each time a saved person sins they LOSE christ - LOSE fellowship with Christ -- and are ALONE and on the inside WITHOUT Christ - with Christ on the OUtSIDE knocking and saying "IF ANYONE hears and OPENS the door I WILL COME in and engage in fellowship with them"??

i.e. they are saved - but APART FROM CHRISt even though Christ said "I will never leave you or forsake you" and even though Paul says that we only stand by our faith in Rom 11?? "You TOO FEAR for if he did no spare them NEITHER will he spare you"???


Bob Said
2. Is it your position that the SAVED condition is the condition of "BEING ALONE on the INSIDE with Christ on the OUTSIDE waiting to come in and have fellowship"??

3. Is it your position that the NT view of the LOST world was NOT the evangelistic view of Rev 3:20 but rather it was that God was ONLY INSIDE the chruch KNOCKING on doors waiting on the ALREADY SAVED to open?

For those Calvinists that suppose that UNION WITH CHRIST is delayed after salvation such that Christ is STILL ON THE OUTSIDE knocking on the door AFTER salvation (as the author above seems to suggest) I refer you to the post above this one where OldRegular shows us the way Calvinists reject that idea.

The bottom line is that Calvinism's twisted confused doctrinal position on salvation, fellowship AND evangelism is fully exposed in their attempts to obfuscate and confuse the text of Rev 3:20 in favor of Calvinism.

In Christ,

Bob


Bob, you're flying everwhere but to the issue here. The issue I have, is that, in context, Revelation 3:20 isn't evangelistic. Plain and simple. Your position hinges on the suppostion that is is. Hence, you are kicking around a strawman.

Soli Deo Gloria,
Dustin
 
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BobRyan

Well-Known Member



Here's what John Macarthur (calvinist) says

Revelation 3:20 "Rather than allowing for the common interpretation of Christ's knocking on a person's heart, the context demands that Christ was seeking to enter this church THAT BORE HIS NAME BUT LACKED A SINGLE TRUE BELIEVER. ..."

From MacArthur's study Bible comments on Rev 3, page 1997.

MacArthur has this as the LOST inside the church of Laodicea -- "NO true Believers in Christ"





Adam Clarke

http://www.godrules.net/library/clarke/clarkerev3.htm

Be zealous] Be in earnest, to get your souls saved, They had no zeal; this was their bane. He now stirs them up to diligence in the use of the means of grace and repentance for their past sins and remissness.

Verse 20. Behold, I stand at the door and knock] There are many sayings of this kind among the ancient rabbins; thus in Shir Hashirim Rabba, fol.


25, 1: "God said to the Israelites, My children, open to me one door of repentance, even so wide as the eye of a needle, and I will open to you doors through which calves and horned cattle may pass." In Sohar Levit, fol. 8, col. 32, it is said: "If a man conceal his sin, and do not open it before the holy King, although he ask mercy, yet the door of repentance shall not be opened to him. But if he open it before the holy blessedGod, God spares him, and mercyprevails over wrath; and when he laments, although all the doors were shut, yet they shall be opened to him, and his prayer shall be heard." Christ stands - waits long, at the door of the sinner's heart; he knocks - uses judgments, mercies, reproofs, exhortations, &c., to induce sinners to repent and turn to him; he lifts up his voice - calls loudly by his word, ministers, and Spirit.
If any man hear] If the sinner will seriously consider his state, and attend to the voice of his Lord.



http://www.godrules.net/library/clarke/clarkerev3.htm
[/quote]

Amen and Amen
 
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BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Adam Clarke Continued

And open the door] This must be his own act, receiving power for this purpose from his offended Lord, who will not break open the door; he will make no forcible entry.


I will come in to him] I will manifest myself to him, heal all his backslidings, pardon all his iniquities, and love him freely.
Will sup with him] Hold communion with him, feed him with the bread of life.


And he with me.] I will bring him at last to dwell with me in everlastingglory.


The confused reasoning of some Calvinists does not show up in what Clarke said -- but he DOES agree with MacArthur!
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
John Darby –
Rev 3:20
http://www.godrules.net/library/darbysynop/darbysynoprev3.htm


Laodicea follows. Lukewarmness characterises the last state of profession in the assembly. It is nauseous to Christ; He will spue it out of His mouth. It was not mere want of power, it was want of heart- the worst of all ills. This threat is peremptory, not conditional. It brought irremediable rejection. With this want of heart for Christ and His service, there was much pretension to the possession of resources and competency in themselves; " I am rich," whereas they had nothing of Christ. It is the professing assembly accounting itself rich without having Christ as the riches of the soul by faith. Therefore He counsels them to buy of Him true and approved righteousness, clothing for their moralnakedness, and what gave spiritual sight; for they were, as respects what Christ is and gives before God, poor, naked, and miserable, and specially so. This is Christ's judgment of their pretended acquisitions according to man. However, as long as the assembly subsists, Christ continues to deal in grace, stands at the door and knocks presses reception of Himself in the closest way on the conscience. If any one, still in what He was going to spue out, heard His voice and opened, He would give him admission to be with Him, and a part in the kingdom.


He that has an ear let him hear – not “just the already saved who are going to heaven” as some Calvinists would claim.
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