Dustin said:
Clarke the Wesleyan and Darby the dispy, the muck keeps seeping in.
Show me where in the context of the passage in debate where it says that Christ's statements to the Laodicean church are applied to the whole unconverted world.
Who is speaking in the passage? Christ.
Who is He speaking to? The members of the Laodicean church.
What is He telling them? That he knows thier works, and He will spew them out of His mouth as one would lukewarm water. He says as many as He loves, He rebukes and chastens, to be zealous and repent.
Where is the whole unconverted world in that passage?
Find it, and surely I will recant. I'm conformed by the Word, I can't say that God's Word means something it doesn't. Stop setting up strawmen to clobber and deal with the text.
Soli Deo Gloria,
Dustin
edit: Bob, Matthew Henry commentary is definatly always a treat. Thank you, I enjoyed it. But still the statements are to those in the Laodicean church, those that were in error, professing Christians in the visible church. The context doesnt allow the statements to be extended to the entire unconverted earth.
Indeed you are right.
Does the passage in Rev 3: 20 “Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.” speak to the elect/church, or is it speaking to all mankind.
This is a MAJOR point in free-willism. We see it used all the time by those that would have us think it does apply to all mankind. Is what they say true, or are they misleading? As it is in most cases, when you see the whole text it is clear.
Rev 3:
14And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
NOTE: This is clearly to the
church. Verse 14 tells us this. This should end the misleading alone. But there are more reasons to believe this. This passage adressing Laodiceans (a church) also follows 6 other address to other churches. Two other churches are addressed in this chapter alone.
1And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
7And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
We also know its believers for Christ is watching the works of the members. Works are address at the beginning of each letter. Salvation is not based on works, so for Christ to be addressing non-believers and how their works must change, would not jive with the gospel of grace. Even those that say we can lose our salvation would have to agree that works is not part of the salvation plan.
So why would Christ ALWAYS address the works of the non-blievers as if He was checking on them. If they are lost, then all works are dead, and a lost person can do nothing to change that, by changing what they do.
Why was not He telling them they must believe, as He did so many times in the 4 gospels?
Why? Well...it is clear he was not addressing the non-believer.
Yet the book of James does tell us that God cares about what believers are works. Believers are to work for the King and for the kingdom. Not the non-believer.
Also...
Hebrews says, whom He loves He also chastens. There would be another side to this statement. This statement limits Gods love and chastening hand to those He loves. So, those He does not love, He lets go their own way. (Rom 1) In fact this is what we see in the next verses.
15I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
NOTE:
Notice verse 15…I know about your works..
Notice verse 18…..I counsel you…
Notice verse 19…I love you…I chasen you….repent!!
It is clear this is talking to believers.
Now read the verse...
20Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
It is clear many have mislead when it comes to this passage. In this church they had lift Christ out. Christ is asking them to fellowship with Him again..."and will sup with him".
In Christ...James