Thoughts on Seminary

[Dr. Bob]

I responded to God's call to preach in 1963. I was a sophomore in high school. Central Baptist Theological Seminary was hosted in facilities of my home church so I knew many students and faculty. They allowed in the evening classes for me to begin training. Some great memories of rushing from public high school to the seminary, visiting/debating with great men of God, and taking classes.

My pastor, Dr R.V. Clearwaters, was president of this large seminary. He asked to speak with me after a year of my "special" status taking classes while still in high school. He said he didn't know if Jesus would return in the next 10 years or not (Goldwater had just been defeated and "no hope" for America was the worldview of fundamentalism then ) but that if it was just 10 years, he would still recommend 4 years of college, 3 years of seminary. I could minister all those years as I learned, but the last 3 years, fully trained, I would be a better pastor.

News Flash: Jesus didn't come back by 1973. I "busted a gut" getting thru college in 3 years and a master's in 18 months and in full-time pastorate by December 1970. With ulcers and broke, but whatever!

Question for discussion: What would YOU say to a high school fellow who felt God was calling him to preach, be a pastor or missionary, etc? What sort of formal (and informal) education would you recommend for young people today?

Await a good discussion.

 

[Rob_BW]

I was thinking about this the other day.

Specifically, I was wondering if seminaries should enroll students with an AA. Think about it, 2 years for an associate's, 3 more for an MDiv, 5 years total, the same amount of time many other students take to get a master's degree.

 

[Dr. Bob]

MDiv is 96 credits, not akin to MA of 32-36. So may be a problem.

With dual credits, a student could earn 32 college credits BEFORE going to school. Then 3 year on campus BA or BS. And 1-2 year MA would be a good start for sure.

 

[Deacon]

What would YOU say to a high school fellow who felt God was calling him to preach, be a pastor or missionary, etc? What sort of formal (and informal) education would you recommend for young people today?

I'd say,

• Get a job! Spend some time working as a missionary to the working world.
• Take courses on the way.
• Serve in the church, be a youth leader, shadow a pastor etc.
• Work in a homeless shelter or food pantry - clean toilets

I've seen way to many who thought they were called to full time service, who spent years in school and later find they were unfit or unable to take on the task.

Rob

 

[JonShaff]

I'd say,

• Serve in the church... shadow a pastor etc.

Rob

This

I feel like discipleship is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay overlooked, particularly in this area of "grooming a pastor"

 

[TCassidy]

What sort of formal (and informal) education would you recommend for young people today?

As one who attended that same seminary, and who had Dr. Clearwaters as a mentor and teacher (he taught homiletics and insisted we learn to preach entirely without notes!), I have, over the years, changed my position. I believe the best approach is to get a secular bachelors degree in the liberal arts (no, liberal arts is not where you learn the art of being a liberal!) then follow that with an M.Div. from a good Seminary. (That from a guy who started his didactic career teaching in a Bible College.)

Specifically, I was wondering if seminaries should enroll students with an AA.

The seminary Dr. Bob and I attended enrolled students with an AA but after completing the 96 credit hours usually resulting in an M.Div. received a Th.B. instead.

Serve in the church, be a youth leader, shadow a pastor etc.

This! We have forgotten the best way to learn is to do! Young men who exhibit a calling should first serve an apprenticeship with a mature, experience pastor and, after that apprenticeship the pastor would then advise the young man as to whether he should pursue higher education or perhaps find another form of service.

All too many good men drop out of seminary or drop out of the ministry after graduating and serving in a church for a few years. That creates a huge waste of time, resources, and people.

 

[Dr. Bob]

I had many friends in seminary (remember I was 7 years younger) who got married, worked long hours to support families, struggled with a challenging course-load (Greek, Hebrew, etc) and after 6-7 years just could not graduate. Went to a church but with no degree (after all those hours).

I recommend a BA (Bachelor of Arts) with emphasis in history, English, philosophy, rhetoric, etc (good accredited Christian college will also have core of biblical classes required), then
32 credit MA (Master of Arts) in Bible/Theology. They then have a "seminary degree"
32 MORE credits for MM (Master of Ministry) adding classes in practical theology
32 MORE credits for M.Div (Master of Divinity) for full seminary program

No matter WHEN you stop the formal training or WHATEVER reason, you have thus the "alphabet soup" that the world demands of a "professional". But practical hands-on mentoring at all stages of formal education - part time work in a church/para-church ministry will open the eyes.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Tom (TCassidy), you went to seminary "late", right? How did the formal training impact you and your family since you weren't the typical 22 year old right out of college like I was?

 

[Yeshua1]

I responded to God's call to preach in 1963. I was a sophomore in high school. Central Baptist Theological Seminary was hosted in facilities of my home church so I knew many students and faculty. They allowed in the evening classes for me to begin training. Some great memories of rushing from public high school to the seminary, visiting/debating with great men of God, and taking classes.

My pastor, Dr R.V. Clearwaters, was president of this large seminary. He asked to speak with me after a year of my "special" status taking classes while still in high school. He said he didn't know if Jesus would return in the next 10 years or not (Goldwater had just been defeated and "no hope" for America was the worldview of fundamentalism then ) but that if it was just 10 years, he would still recommend 4 years of college, 3 years of seminary. I could minister all those years as I learned, but the last 3 years, fully trained, I would be a better pastor.

News Flash: Jesus didn't come back by 1973. I "busted a gut" getting thru college in 3 years and a master's in 18 months and in full-time pastorate by December 1970. With ulcers and broke, but whatever!

Question for discussion: What would YOU say to a high school fellow who felt God was calling him to preach, be a pastor or missionary, etc? What sort of formal (and informal) education would you recommend for young people today?

Await a good discussion.

make sure that their calling and gifting os of God, in sense of have it confirmed by reliable and mature Christians, try it out at their church first, and do all they can to be as much debt free as posssible!

 

[Rob_BW]

What do you guys think about dual BA/MDiv programs?

Pastoral Ministry Degree | Master of Divinity Degree | Christian College | University of Northwestern St. Paul - University of Northwestern

 

[Dr. Bob]

I think MUCH of the dual program (giving hs and college credit for same class; giving college and grad credit for the same class) is WATERING DOWN education.

I see young people today woefully ignorant and socially unprepared with educational degrees/diplomas that are worthless.

My 3 cents (inflation, you know)

 

[Yeshua1]

I think MUCH of the dual program (giving hs and college credit for same class; giving college and grad credit for the same class) is WATERING DOWN education.

I see young people today woefully ignorant and socially unprepared with educational degrees/diplomas that are worthless.

My 3 cents (inflation, you know)

many institutions have bought into liberal/critical Christian theology also!

 

[Rob_BW]

There are definitely watered down programs, undergrad and grad, brick and mortar and online, everywhere. As TCassidy mentioned in a post a while ago, the current trend in educational egalitarianism has had its effects.

And as someone who has been in community college, a Div 1 state school, and smaller private schools, split equally between online and in person, I'm just not sold on a pastor needing a 4 year degree before pursuing the gold standard MDiv. Some of my favorite pastors had majors in electrical engineering and computer science. Great for exercising the mind, but is it necessarily adding a needed element to their ministry?

 

[Yeshua1]

There are definitely watered down programs, undergrad and grad, brick and mortar and online, everywhere. As TCassidy mentioned in a post a while ago, the current trend in educational egalitarianism has had its effects.

And as someone who has been in community college, a Div 1 state school, and smaller private schools, split equally between online and in person, I'm just not sold on a pastor needing a 4 year degree before pursuing the gold standard MDiv. Some of my favorite pastors had majors in electrical engineering and computer science. Great for exercising the mind, but is it necessarily adding a needed element to their ministry?

My ideal plan would be like be in a "normal" job awhile, get as much debt free/savings set up, and then go and get seminary trained! And be involved in your church as a teacher/prayer/worker all that time!

 

[TCassidy]

Tom (TCassidy), you went to seminary "late", right? How did the formal training impact you and your family since you weren't the typical 22 year old right out of college like I was?

Yes. I was 29 when I started Seminary. I already had a secular B.S. Most of the guys in my first year classes were 21 or 22. I was the "old man" of the class.

How did it impact me? It almost killed me. Literally. I had been overseas a few years earlier and, unbeknownst to me, had picked up a load of pneumococcal bacillus that lay dormant, kept under control by my immune system.

But with being a full time husband, a full time student, and working full time to support us, I got run down and the pneumococcal bacillus took advantage of that fatigue and flared up as Pneumococcal Meningitis and Encephalitis. When my wife found me unconscious one Saturday morning she called an ambulance which took me to the hospital where she was told to get the family together as I had only a 20% chance of living through the night.

But I got a second opinion from the Great Physician who kept me alive, and I got better over several weeks in the hospital and surgery to remove the source of the infection embedded in my bone marrow.

I lost the ability to walk, to talk, and lost most of my memory, and lost 30 points off my IQ.

I had to learn to walk all over again. To learn to talk all over again.

I never recovered my lost memories, but made a lot of good new ones.

I never recovered the lost IQ points, but I had enough left over. I went from 165 (Genius) to a mere 135 (Very Superior).

The end result over the years has been Acute Disseminated Encephalomyelitis presenting as Relapsing/Remitting MS. As I get older I am less and less able to get around well, and have very little stamina.

So, yeah, it was pretty hard on me. After I recovered sufficiently I went back to seminary and eventually completed my M.Div., Th.M., and Th.D., and my J.D, at 55. And remained coherent enough to preach for 40 years and teach at both the Bible College and Seminary level for over 25 years.

So, it has been worth it all. Even if I could I would not change a thing. God's Plans always work out much better than my own.

 

[TCassidy]

Some of my favorite pastors had majors in electrical engineering and computer science. Great for exercising the mind, but is it necessarily adding a needed element to their ministry?

They are necessary in that they teach you how to learn. The most important thing my education taught me was not the facts I learned, but how to think, how to search out the truth, and how to teach myself what I needed to know. The greatest result of my education was creating in me an autodidact who can learn anything I put my mind to.

And, if for no other result, a BA/BS gives you 4 more years to go from 18 to 22. Then after completing the M.Div. you find yourself 25 years of age which, incidentally, is the age when the brain is complete and mature.

 

[JonShaff]

Yes. I was 29 when I started Seminary. I already had a secular B.S. Most of the guys in my first year classes were 21 or 22. I was the "old man" of the class.

How did it impact me? It almost killed me. Literally. I had been overseas a few years earlier and, unbeknownst to me, had picked up a load of pneumococcal bacillus that lay dormant, kept under control by my immune system.

But with being a full time husband, a full time student, and working full time to support us, I got run down and the pneumococcal bacillus took advantage of that fatigue and flared up as Pneumococcal Meningitis and Encephalitis. When my wife found me unconscious one Saturday morning she called an ambulance which took me to the hospital where she was told to get the family together as I had only a 20% chance of living through the night.

But I got a second opinion from the Great Physician who kept me alive, and I got better over several weeks in the hospital and surgery to remove the source of the infection embedded in my bone marrow.

I lost the ability to walk, to talk, and lost most of my memory, and lost 30 points off my IQ.

I had to learn to walk all over again. To learn to talk all over again.

I never recovered my lost memories, but made a lot of good new ones.

I never recovered the lost IQ points, but I had enough left over. I went from 165 (Genius) to a mere 135 (Very Superior).

The end result over the years has been Acute Disseminated Encephalomyelitis presenting as Relapsing/Remitting MS. As I get older I am less and less able to get around well, and have very little stamina.

So, yeah, it was pretty hard on me. After I recovered sufficiently I went back to seminary and eventually completed my M.Div., Th.M., and Th.D., and my J.D, at 55. And remained coherent enough to preach for 40 years and teach at both the Bible College and Seminary level for over 25 years.

So, it has been worth it all. Even if I could I would not change a thing. God's Plans always work out much better than my own.

This blessed me, thanks for sharing! To God alone be the Glory through Jesus Christ our LORD!

 

[Rob_BW]

They are necessary in that they teach you how to learn. The most important thing my education taught me was not the facts I learned, but how to think, how to search out the truth, and how to teach myself what I needed to know. The greatest result of my education was creating in me an autodidact who can learn anything I put my mind to.

And, if for no other result, a BA/BS gives you 4 more years to go from 18 to 22. Then after completing the M.Div. you find yourself 25 years of age which, incidentally, is the age when the brain is complete and mature.

Which again, it looks like my own experiences are shaping my opinions, since I didn't start college til I was 22, engaged during my first semester, and married during my second.

 

[Rhetorician]

"Dr. Bob,"

Question for discussion: What would YOU say to a high school fellow who felt God was calling him to preach, be a pastor or missionary, etc? What sort of formal (and informal) education would you recommend for young people today?

I cannot help but remember tongue and cheek every time I see your title I think of "Dr. Bob Jones." My home pastor and family were so touched by the BJU experience most all things brought comments like "Dr. Bob (J) said or did such and such a thing!!!" Forgive the anecdote.

Now to question you posed. I simply tell them to go to university and get a degree with which they can make a degree as a "tentmaker" in order to be able to make a living for their family. It is not the way I did it, but I sure wish I had in retrospect it would have been a lot easier on me and my little family.

sdg!

rd