Three Hard Questions (for free-will believers)

heeheehee

 

well, ya shouldn't have been saying "I done it"....you're right! YOu didn't do it! But that doesn't mean the idea of "free will" is wrong, it just means YOU were wrong.

I never claimed that I ever DID any of my salvation. I merely accepted the free gift. God did all the work, all the changing (still is), and all the keeping.

 

aye, there's the rub! I don't believe a decision is a work. God's grace saves me. But He doesn't zap me with His grace despite myself, He asks me if I want it or not. If we say yes, He saves, if we say no He does not save. This is what God has decreed. It does not mean He is no longer sovereign.

The proof that this is possible for God without decreasing His actual Sovereignty is the Incarnate Christ. The Bible does say He laid aside His glory (of His own "free will"). Does that mean that Christ was somehow less God? No. He is/was/will be 100% God regardless. He simply chose to lay aside the manifestation of His deity for a time. It is the same idea within this discussion.

 

Here is the hard question: Why don't many respond?

 

Here's my favorite (seen on a bathroom wall):

God is love.

Love is blind.

Ray Charles is blind.

Therefore Ray Charles is God.

:laugh:

 

Without His love we would never have the opportunity of Salvation

God's will has everything to do with it. It was His will to give us the opportunity to be saved. His will is for all men to be voluntarily willing. By men choosing Christ (as He first chose us), shows real love for Christ with out this choice there is no real love. This choosing was His plan from the beginning.

His work gave man the possibility of Salvation. His work on the cross doesn't save unless you first have faith in Him.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send His Son into the world so that He might condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

Might is a possibility.
MB

 

The work of God is this: To believe... How is that not a work Bapmom? John 6:29.

Cool. So we are in the driving seat. It all hinges on us. Yet God is still Sovereign? That is a contradiction of Sovereignty. Sovereignty is ours not God's. He is waiting on us to decide our own destinies? Some Sovereign. Some chance. Jesus is "A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for. 1 Peter 2:8.

JN 6:35 Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

God's glory is not in the shinning wonder but in the broken Man on the cross.

john.

 

Of course, God could have simply not created a person whom He knew would sin in the first place. Why create Adam when He knew He would sin? Why subsequently create Bob when He knows Bob will refuse the truth no matter what God does? How are these facts congruent with a God who loves everyone?

If it truly was His will that all be saved, then why not create only men whom He knows will accept Him?

 

Why are many believers not Calvinistic?

The answer to this question is virtually the same as the question you pose.

 

I can conceive of these possible categories of answers;
1. external factors - they have not been exposed to the same teachings, truth, experiences, etc. as has another

2. internal factors - they aren't as smart, as spiritual, as open to the truth, as humble, etc. etc.

3. no reason - they simply choose that way

Which would it be?

 

Supposing that both you and I have been as equally exposed to the Calvinistic teachings, then I take it by your answer that you are "smarter, more spiritual, more humble and/or more open to the truth," right? Is that reason for you to boast? Who made you smarter, more humble or whatever? If God is the one who made you more accepting of these doctrines, why do you suppose He has chosen not to make all His believing children as open? Why has He chosen to reveal truth to you that he keeps hidden from other children?

Additionally, I would say that option 3 would not be "no reason." There are certainly external and internal reasons which influence the choice one makes, but they are not determinitive. The chooser makes the determination. An actor acts. A chooser chooses, period.

 

Lets suppose this is the answer we agree upon. That being case, how is it congruent with God wanting all to repent and God loving all men that He would make some more humbler, smarter, whatever such that they received the gospel while others didn't?

I have no problem with holding that God does as you suggest above. The difficulty though is when one tries to argue that God loves all men to the same degree on in the same way, and that He desires that all men come to Him to the same degree or in the same way.

Yet you yourself hold that God does not simply choose. There are things which He *can't* choose because they are against His nature. So, to say that a chooser chooses, period, cannot be an answer to the determinative of all choices. God Himself *cannot* choose certain things. So, while the 'chooser choosing, period' might be determinative to some sorts of choices, it does not address all sorts of choices. What about those choices like God being unable to lie? You say its against His nature, but if that is so, then the nature is the determinative factor and not the 'chooser choosing, period'.

 

Well, we don't agree on the answer to the question I posed. I was only going along with your answer to show you where it leads. In regard to the question about believers having correct doctrine, I believe God gives believers everything thing they need to decern truth and obey it, when they don't it is completely their own fault. If a believer has poor theology it is because they have failed, not because God has failed to grant them something they needed to get it right. In your way of thinking God has failed to give men all they need to respond...for the lost they all don't have ability to see, hear and receive the message of the gospel...for believers they all don't have the intelligence, humility or openness to receive correct doctrine. All the failings rest upon God for not granting what is needed. I say God has granted all that is needed and thus all men are without excuse. God gave all men everything they needed to believe and be saved, just as He has given believers all that they need to have correct theology...their failings are all their own.

Now, in regard to God's love for the lost. God demonstates his love by providing a way to salvation. He could force/compel people to travel that path, but I believe he delights in those who seek to do so freely. Think about it in your own relationships. Do you delight as much in the hug of one who has been asked to give you a hug, or in one who does it of their own choosing? Does a parent delight more in the act of their child's obedience that is done out of fear of punishment or in one that is done without even being asked so as to show love and appreciation?

You really can't get pass this point, can you? First, God is the one who defines truth, thus He cannot lie because if He says it then it becomes truth, not because he is bound by some overarching and independant "truth" out there somewhere, as you seem to imply each time you bring up this point. Second, you must understand that those of us that hold to libertarian freedom (which at times you seem to agree with) don't negate the fact that there are at times choices that are determined by factors out of the control of the chooser, just as their are at times choices that are determined by factors within the choosers control. However, when it comes to those choices by which we are held morally accountable, such as a believers choice to sin or not sin, or a lost man's choice to believe or not believe, I feel that they could do otherwise than what they end up doing. I feel that a believer who sins, could have resisted that sin given the exact same circumstances. I feel that the lost man who resists the Holy Spirit, could have submitted to Him. Thusly, both are accountable and morally responsible. They are without excuse.

 

I think the problem is that some hold God to having love of only one kind.

God tells us to love our nieghbor as ourselves.
God tells men to love our wives as ourselves.
God tells believers love our enemies.

But God also states that we are to hate mother, father brother, ext... in contrast to loving Him.

Now, did God change His mind regarding His command of our love toward others or does God show a distinction in types of Love regarding man to man as well as man to God. Now, I know that God is not man but man is to imitate God. And I do believe that Jesus is God and man therefore our prime example in all manner of godliness and holiness.

God does love the whole of mankind as we are to love even our enemies, but God lavishes the fulness of His love on us whom He foreknew over and above that initial love - in like manner as He commands us concerning our cherished loved one in contention with our love for Him. In other words He hates mankind in camparison to us just as we are to hate Father and mother (ext) in comparison to God.

Though God does desire for all men to repent and come to Him (this is why the call goes out to all) it does not change the foreknowledge of God concerning all who will come and those who wont. God is Love, but God is also Just. For whosoever believes is not condemned but whosoever believes not is condemned already.

 

The only question I have for those who believe election is based upon foresight, is this; If God elects based upon those He foresaw believe, then those He foresaw not believe have no chance do they? That is a tough question, but it is almost the same for either side. The calvinist side says God foreloves the elect, the non calvinist say that God forsees the elect.
You may have answered this for me before Allan. Forgive me if i'm asking again.... I'm getting old. :laugh:

 

Here is what I found!

http://www.momof9splace.com/childsalvation.html

Look at the website first, and then read the commentary - God Bless!

Friends and Family,

Believe it or not, what is said about children, is also the process for adults.

HOW God brings people to conviction (convinced by THE EVIDENCE) of sin and "sinnerdom" or being a sinner, and puts the Gospel in their life, to cause repentance (change of mind) and faith (trust/belief) is as varied as there are created individuals.

BUT, there are GENERAL PRINCIPLES to be kept in mind on how a genuine salvation actually occurs.

In the general principle mindset I make the following statements:

No one is ever truly born again without trusting Christ as their Saviour that trust being based upon the FACT that He shed His Blood and died for their sin.

However, no one ever truly trusts Christ in this manner, until they are shown BY GOD (however He brings it about) that they are in fact, LOST, SINNERS, and ON THE WAY TO HELL due to their condition.

This (Conviction and Repentance) is called an "awakening" by the "old-schoolers", and whether it is for 30 seconds, or 30 years, it always precedes salvation.

We adults also, must be "awakened" convicted/convinced (cause to see - convinced by the evidence) our sins and sinfulness by the Holy Ghost. This will cause us to acknowledge that God is JUST to send us to Hell, for our rebellion.

Only strong preaching against sin, OR using the 10 Commandments to show sinners their sins, OR/AND the Holy Ghost of God can cause conviction.

The Holy Ghost is the Author of Biblical Conviction, and He uses the Conscience OR the Law, or His Own Power to convict.

Only these can "convince one as to the evidence against their hopes of Heaven" Any singular one or ALL of these can do it.

Holy Ghost Conviction (sin, righteousness and judgment in a real salvation experience) causes us to REPENT (change our mind), about our sins as ok, and our sinfulness as excusable. This will generate a TRUE desire to be free from sin (aka lifestyle) and receive Christ.

I AM NOT SAYING WE ARE SAVED OR PROVE OUR SALVATION BY WORKS. What this is all (Conviction of the Holy Ghost and Repentance) is referring to is the HEART-ATTITUDE, of the individual towards God, Sin, and Self.

Implied in this however is that we would also stop TRUSTING anything else (including a past profession of "faith" or false supernatural "experience" from Satan AND THOSE ABOUND IN THE LAST DAYS) and turn from our own way.

Salvation is not received by "asking Jesus into your heart", or merely "praying a sinners prayer" when one is not convicted of being a sinner. When you are convicted, you desire to repent.

There is nothing in Scripture about "asking Jesus in your heart", or any of those other pithy sayings that come to mind, when dealing with cruddy and wicked "mass evangelism" tactics. That is not to say the Holy Spirit does not indwell the heart of the believer (REGENERATION), and bring assurance, but He is not allowed to come in this way. The way of the cross leads home!

Once one is convicted and desires to repent, then they must TRUST the Lord Jesus Christ as their Saviour, based on The Gospel that He has DONE for all sinners.

The Gospel: Christ shed His Blood for all sinners, to wash their sins away/blot them out, Died for all sinners-taking their Hell and punishment upon Himself, was buried, and Rose again (as the Perfect God-Man who never sinned) for all sinners, to give out eternal life, to those who repent from their sin (as convicted by the Holy Ghost) and trust Christ as their Saviour. They then receive eternal life, justification, righteousness, and assurance, by this simple act of faith. (YOU NEED TO LOOK UP THESE BIG WORDS!)

That, in turn leads us to truly trust Christ as Our LORD and SAVIOUR. This does not mean the Christian in now sinless, but He/She does "sin-less" than before CONVICTION AND REPENTANCE, and desires (though is not perfect in completing) to do God's Will, not the self's. Desires (heart-attitudes) change!

This ACTUAL AND ORIGINAL LEGITIMATE SALVATION EXPERIENCE is evidenced to the heart of an individual by I John...Read the Book of 1st John to see the portrait of a believer.

Some of the subjective experiences, mixed in with Biblical truth could be experienced as follows:

The indwelling Holy Ghost in the heart, the "lifted load" of sins, heart-belief that Jesus Christ is God, the awareness of the nearness of God, the desire to know God from His Word, the desire to pray, the Scripture opened and understandable, the desire to hear preaching, the desire to be around other saved people, the desire to see others saved, the hunger and thirst for righteousness, sin becomes painful and "icky" and once done, causes unalleviable grief until dealt with biblically, God using the person to reach others as he/she was reached, and he/she slowly changed (or changing) personality traits, where as things that were once acceptable, are no longer are.

Also, the heart of the person will no longer be "empty", and there won't be a "void" in the heart/life like "something’s missing", because the Holy Spirit will have taken up residence in that persons body, soul, and spirit. Sin will no longer satisfy, ONLY JESUS CHRIST!
There is such a "thing" as a carnal Christian. Conviction and Repentance, Faith and Salvation, continue in the life from point of origin (salvation), until death. Also the Christian will be absolutely miserable in acts of sin, and will have "stuff happen" in their life, even maybe death, to cause them to "get right". A real Christian, when walking in the flesh, for days or weeks or any indeterminate period of time will be the most miserable person on Earth.

Regardless of how deep (not as in a period of time, but actions/attitudes) into sin a real believer may go, they have always been convicted and repented in the beginning, and will always come back to the Lord Jesus Christ in humility and contrition, desiring to make it right, and have His pardon. They don't "leave and never come back". In the South they say "Well, if he is really saved, he'll be back." In the South too, it's said a lot, "You gotta get lost before you can get saved!"

HOWEVER, 75%-90% of people who think they fall into this category, or define themselves as that (and are for months and years), have never gone through these general salvation principles and Holy Ghost led experiences in their own life, and have merely a false "faith" or a simple head-knowledge about salvation. THEY NEVER FORWARD-SLID TO BACKSLIDE! They have never been convicted, repented, and trusted Christ. John 3:17-21 states that. Read it!

Only God knows (and that individual) if a "carnal" Christian is really saved or not.

Search the scripture about the purpose-work of the Law and Conscience in Paul's Epistles (Romans 2:14 - 8:30; The Book of Galatians) and read the Law (10 Commandments) in Exodus 20

Read up about the Holy Spirit and his work in John (14-17) regarding the lost and sinners, and read up on repentance and faith in Luke and Acts (Various verses).

Also, when reading about people being saved by faith in Christ, in the Scripture (The Gospels and Acts), notice their attitude (not work - I am not a hyper-Calvinist, faith and repentance are heart attitudes, not works) of Repentance when they come to Christ.

Remember, once a person is genuinely saved, they are no longer slaves to sin, or the Law. That's why we don't use the 10 commandments on true Christians, or anything else out of the Decalogue.

Try out what has been said here in dealing with yourself, your adult friends and family, and your children. Salvation is too serious to play games with, or get wrong. Eternity depends on it. Salvation is not complicated, but it does require some understanding of these things, IN THE HEART!

Too many people have grown up in Bible-Preaching churches, or been "evangelized" and are worse for it, because of the various reasons listed here and in the article submitted.

God Bless you all, and Jesus Saves sinners (like me/us!)

The Tomlin Family

 

reformed,

I know, as you do, that there are many stripes of calvinists, all with varying opinions and varying extremes. Yes I have spoken to calvinists who believe they had salvation forced upon them....

but I would never dare to assume that ALL calvinists are of this variety.


Further, (despite my earlier rant) let me add that I believe that the real reason this debate goes on forever and forever, in a never-ending circle, is that the concepts that are at work here are beyond even our "mighty" mental faculties. IMO, we are all :BangHead: because we are trying to figure out something which only God really understands.

Im not trying to get out of thinking myself.....Ive seen people in here with far more education and smarts than me go round and round, on BOTH sides. Obviously there's something we are missing here.

God knows all, both past, present and future because He's outside of Time. He can see it all at once. He wants us to choose, yet He tells us we are HIS chosen ones. He does not want any of us to perish, but we know some will, and He knows some will. These are mysteries to me (among others...)

I don't know how they reconcile. I just know that God says that salvation is to those who believe. Hence we get the idea that we need to come to a point where we believe on Jesus as our Saviour. Have I? Yes. There came a day when I believed on Jesus alone. Does that mean I chose God? Yes. Does that mean I was chosen BY God? Yes.

so we're all right and we're all wrong........

:tonofbricks:

:wavey:

 

I agree Bapmom. If one wants to be one of the elect....... have faith and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. You will be saved.

We are predestined. It would be silly to say "well I was predestined so I don't need to do anything". If one wants to please the Lord.... then I suppose we need to pick up our cross and follow Him. If we do......... we were predestined to do it. grace and peace