Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Ed Edwards said:
Did somebody NOT like these definitions?
'dispensation' is a logical undefined term, here defined by Ed:
Dispensation = each different Testament
-
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Three Kingdom's of God (Eschatology)
- Thread starter Ed Edwards
- Start date
Did somebody NOT like these definitions?
'dispensation' is a logical undefined term, here defined by Ed:
Dispensation = each different Testament
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Gerhard Ebersoehn said:
Amen, Brother Gerhard Ebersoehn
-- Preach it RIGHT ON!! --
And God has three types of Kingdoms, as denoted above
-- Preach it RIGHT ON!! --
And God has three types of Kingdoms, as denoted above
Last edited by a moderator:
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Dispensation -noun
(definition from this page:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/dispensation
4. Theology.
a. the divine ordering of the affairs of the world.
b. an appointment, arrangement, or favor, as by God.
c. a divinely appointed order or age:
the old Mosaic, or Jewish, dispensation;
the new gospel, or Christian, dispensation.
(definition from this page:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/dispensation
4. Theology.
a. the divine ordering of the affairs of the world.
b. an appointment, arrangement, or favor, as by God.
c. a divinely appointed order or age:
the old Mosaic, or Jewish, dispensation;
the new gospel, or Christian, dispensation.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
"AGE" in the New King James Version (nKJV).
The KJVs tends to confuse the Greek "aeon" /age/ and
Greek "cosmos" /world/ and calls them both "world".
So i'll use the nKJV for my word study on "age".
References to how old someone is (AKA: "age") have been eliminated.
My comments follow a star (*).
For the purposes of this topic, 'age' is a logical undefined term. But the
scriptures pretty well make it understandable what an 'age' is.
Mt 12:32 (nKJV):
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man,
it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit,
it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
* there is a current age and an age to come
Mt 13:39 (nKJV):
The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest
is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.
*souls shall be harvested at the end of this age
Mt 13:40 (nKJV):
Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire,
so it will be at the end of this age.
Mt 13:49 (nKJV):
So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come
forth, separate the wicked from among the just,
Mt 24:3 (nKJV):
Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came
to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be?
And what will be the sign of Your coming,
and of the end of the age?"
Mt 28:20 (nKJV):
teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you;
and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.
*Jesus is with us completely to the end of the age.
*the age has an end
Mr 10:30 (nKJV):
who shall not receive a hundredfold now in this time--houses
and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands,
with persecutions--and in the age to come, eternal life.
*people will have eternal life, in the age to come
Lu 18:30 (nKJV):
who shall not receive many times more in this present time,
and in the age to come eternal life."
Lu 20:34-35 (nKJV):
34. And Jesus answered and said to them, "The sons of this age marry
and are given in marriage.
35. But those who are counted worthy to attain that age,
and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;
*there is a future age when marriage is NOT, after resurrection from the dead
1Co 1:20 (nKJV):
Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer
of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
*this age has a disputer
1Co 2:6 (nKJV):
However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature,
yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age,
who are coming to nothing.
*the wisdom of this age will come to nothing
*the rules of this age will come to nothing
1Co 2:8 (nKJV):
which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known,
they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
1Co 3:18 (nKJV):
Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems
to be wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise.
2Co 4:4 (nKJV):
whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe,
lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ,
who is the image of God, should shine on them.
*the god of this age is NOT Messiah Jesus, the Christ
Ga 1:4 (nKJV):
who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver
us from this present evil age, according to the will
of our God and Father,
*this age is evil
Eph 1:21 (nKJV):
far above all principality and power and might and dominion,
and every name that is named, not only in this age
but also in that which is to come.
*there is an age to follow this age
Eph 6:12 (nKJV):
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities,
against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age,
against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
* this age is dark
1Ti 6:17 (nKJV):
Command those who are rich in this present age not to be haughty,
nor to trust in uncertain riches but in the living God, who gives
us richly all things to enjoy.
* this age has rich people in it
Tit 2:12 (nKJV):
teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts,
we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,
Heb 6:5 (nKJV):
and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
This great section on the Security of the Believer
speaks of an "age to come".
* there will be "good ... powers" in the age to come.
AGES in the KJV1769:
Eph 2:7 (KJV1769):
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches
of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
**There will be ages after this age.
Eph 3:5 (KJV1769):
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men,
as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Eph 3:21 (KJV1769):
Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages,
world without end. Amen.
Col 1:26 (KJV1769):
Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages
and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
*There were ages before this age.
*ages are similiar to generations
The KJVs tends to confuse the Greek "aeon" /age/ and
Greek "cosmos" /world/ and calls them both "world".
So i'll use the nKJV for my word study on "age".
References to how old someone is (AKA: "age") have been eliminated.
My comments follow a star (*).
For the purposes of this topic, 'age' is a logical undefined term. But the
scriptures pretty well make it understandable what an 'age' is.
Mt 12:32 (nKJV):
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man,
it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit,
it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.
* there is a current age and an age to come
Mt 13:39 (nKJV):
The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest
is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels.
*souls shall be harvested at the end of this age
Mt 13:40 (nKJV):
Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire,
so it will be at the end of this age.
Mt 13:49 (nKJV):
So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come
forth, separate the wicked from among the just,
Mt 24:3 (nKJV):
Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came
to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be?
And what will be the sign of Your coming,
and of the end of the age?"
Mt 28:20 (nKJV):
teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you;
and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age." Amen.
*Jesus is with us completely to the end of the age.
*the age has an end
Mr 10:30 (nKJV):
who shall not receive a hundredfold now in this time--houses
and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands,
with persecutions--and in the age to come, eternal life.
*people will have eternal life, in the age to come
Lu 18:30 (nKJV):
who shall not receive many times more in this present time,
and in the age to come eternal life."
Lu 20:34-35 (nKJV):
34. And Jesus answered and said to them, "The sons of this age marry
and are given in marriage.
35. But those who are counted worthy to attain that age,
and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;
*there is a future age when marriage is NOT, after resurrection from the dead
1Co 1:20 (nKJV):
Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer
of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
*this age has a disputer
1Co 2:6 (nKJV):
However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature,
yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age,
who are coming to nothing.
*the wisdom of this age will come to nothing
*the rules of this age will come to nothing
1Co 2:8 (nKJV):
which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known,
they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
1Co 3:18 (nKJV):
Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you seems
to be wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise.
2Co 4:4 (nKJV):
whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe,
lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ,
who is the image of God, should shine on them.
*the god of this age is NOT Messiah Jesus, the Christ
Ga 1:4 (nKJV):
who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver
us from this present evil age, according to the will
of our God and Father,
*this age is evil
Eph 1:21 (nKJV):
far above all principality and power and might and dominion,
and every name that is named, not only in this age
but also in that which is to come.
*there is an age to follow this age
Eph 6:12 (nKJV):
For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities,
against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age,
against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
* this age is dark
1Ti 6:17 (nKJV):
Command those who are rich in this present age not to be haughty,
nor to trust in uncertain riches but in the living God, who gives
us richly all things to enjoy.
* this age has rich people in it
Tit 2:12 (nKJV):
teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts,
we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,
Heb 6:5 (nKJV):
and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
This great section on the Security of the Believer
speaks of an "age to come".
* there will be "good ... powers" in the age to come.
AGES in the KJV1769:
Eph 2:7 (KJV1769):
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches
of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
**There will be ages after this age.
Eph 3:5 (KJV1769):
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men,
as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
Eph 3:21 (KJV1769):
Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages,
world without end. Amen.
Col 1:26 (KJV1769):
Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages
and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
*There were ages before this age.
*ages are similiar to generations
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
I bring this forward from page 3. Evidently some poster here didn't read what I said about 'age' and 'dispensation' and were arguing about the 'dispensation' of else-body found elsewhere.
The gospel is the same in all three of the aforementioned Age/dispensation:
1) Yisrael Kingdom Age Dispensation
---- Saved by Jesus, those who believe that Messiah is coming
--- the Lord Saves, not Yisrael
2) Church Age Dispensation mostly gentile Elect Saints (AKA: Time of the Gentiles, Age of Grace)
----- Saved by Jesus, those who believe Messiah Jesus has come
--- the Lord Saves, not the Church
3) Millennial Messianic Kingdom Age Dispensation
---- Saved by Jesus, after making Jesus, the Messiah, their Lord
--- the Lord Saves, for Jesus is Messiah
-- Salvation is the same in every Dispensation (NOT taught by most dispensation teachers)
The gospel is the same in all three of the aforementioned Age/dispensation:
1) Yisrael Kingdom Age Dispensation
---- Saved by Jesus, those who believe that Messiah is coming
--- the Lord Saves, not Yisrael
2) Church Age Dispensation mostly gentile Elect Saints (AKA: Time of the Gentiles, Age of Grace)
----- Saved by Jesus, those who believe Messiah Jesus has come
--- the Lord Saves, not the Church
3) Millennial Messianic Kingdom Age Dispensation
---- Saved by Jesus, after making Jesus, the Messiah, their Lord
--- the Lord Saves, for Jesus is Messiah
-- Salvation is the same in every Dispensation (NOT taught by most dispensation teachers)
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
These are my axioms. OldRegular, an a-mill, can't agree with them, cause he knows that when I prove my pre-mill eschatology right then it blows his a-mill eschatology Doctrine right out of the water. But these statements are just the summary of the Fundamentals of Christianity by Brother Jerry Fallwell, the non-KJV-Only father of IFBs (Independent Fundamental Baptists). I got them from page 7 of THE FUNDAMENTALIST PHENOMENON (Baker House, 1986), to be technical.Ed Edwards said:
For me to 'prove' to anybody that their are three each 'Kingdom of God' - I need said person to buy into these five fundamentals of Christianity.
Who can't buy into the statements:
1. the a-mill has a problem buying into #5 for the whole concept of a-mill has to have a spiritual (ONLY) meaning to the Millennial Messanic Kingdom. Some a-mill get around the meaning of 'literal' by saying the literal return of Christ in the Second Advent is literal/spiritual instead of literal/physical. But hardly anybody buys into that :wavey:
2. etc ... (not enough time to seek opposition, I'm trying to do a presendation).
Do you buy into the 5 fundamentals (if you have 6 fundamentals or seven, that is fine - do you buy into these 5 fundamentals of Christianity?
Note how my trailer/signature is an expansion of the #1 Fundamental of Christianity (well, #1 on my list):
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Introduction to
Five 'and's of Eschatology
Subtitle: that separate the rapture2 from the resurrection2Five 'and's of Eschatology
(files: 5andsOFeschn.txt where n=0 to 5. File 0,
Last edited, 8Dec08)
(both the rapture2 and the resurreciton2 are part of
what Revelation 20:5 calls THE FIRST RESURRECTION.)
The first resurrection consists of (at least) these two events:
rapture2 - a resurrection1 followed shortly by
a rapture1 before the Tribulation Period
(many pre-mill, post-tribs deny a 'rapture2' exists
but think a 'rapture1 exists).
(this I frequently call 'a rapture/resurrection
in my old writings)
resurrection2 - a resurrection1 followed shortly by
a rapture1 before the Tribulation Period
(this I call generally this in my old writings:
the 'Second Coming of Jesus
in power & Glory, or just 'Second Advent', etc.)
rapture1 - an event held by Jesus where the living saints
get new eternal bodies like Jesus' body.
resurrection1 - an event held by Jesus where dead saints
get new eternal bodies like Jesus' body.
Some Definitions of 'and'
from:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=32360&page=2
Ed Edwards said:
*1 note:
#1 is a subset of #2, where the set contents are "events in time sequence"
*2 note: 'polysyndeton' is a real word, but not a word in some spell checks
Two good examples are in Gen 1 (OT) and Matthew 24 (NT) - look at those sentences starting with 'and' :saint:
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Five 'and's of Eschatology
1. the AND in Matthew 24:3
(files: 5andsOFeschn.txt where n=0 to 5. File 1,
Last edited, 8Dec08)
(both the rapture2 and the resurreciton2 are part of
what Revelation 20:5 calls THE FIRST RESURRECTION.)
1. the AND in Matthew 24:3
Mat 24:3 (KJV1611 Edition):
And as he sate vpon the mount of Oliues,
the Disciples came vnto him priuately,
saying, Tell vs, when shall these things be?
And what shall be the signe of thy coming,
AND (what shall be the signe) of the end of the world?
Other Bible Versions put 'age' instead of
'world' the Greek term is not 'cosmos'
usually translated 'world' but the Greek term is
'aeon' from which we get the English Word 'eon'
(a long period of time) and translated usually 'age'.
This 'AND' clearly seperates:
A. thy coming,
the Coming of Jesus in power and Glory
when Jesus comes
to destroy the Antichrist and set up the
Millennial Messianic Kingdom
---- AKA: Resurrection2
B. the end of the world
the Coming of Jesus to get the Saints at the end of the current AGE
---- AKA: Rapture2
1.Rapture2. Jesus comes for His own ( given physical bodies)
(John 14:3, 1 Thess 4:17)
1.Resurrection2. Jesus comes with His own (already have physical
bodies) (Rev 19:14)
2.Rapture2. Jesus comes in the air (1 Thes 4:17)
2.Resurrection2. Jesus comes to the earth
(Zech 14:4-5, Acts 1:11)
3.Rapture2. Jesus comes to claim His Bride
(1 Thess 4:16-17)
3.Resurrection2. Jesus comes with His Bride
(Rev 19:6-14)
4.Rapture2. end of the Gentile Age
(Matthew 24:3, 24:31-44)
4.Resurrection2.. end of the Tribulation Period
(Revelation 19)
5.Rapture2. Tribulation period begins
5.Resurrection2. Millennial Kingdom begins
6.Rapture2. Saved are delivered from wrath
(1 Thes 1:10, 5:9; Rev 3:10)
6.Resurrection2. Unsaved experience the wrath of God
(Rev 6:12-17)
7.Rapture2. No Signs precede the Rapture
(1 Thess. 5:1-3, Matthew 24:31-44)
7.Resurrection2. Signs precede the Second Coming
(Luke 21-11-28, Matthew 24:21-30)
8.Rapture2. Focus: Lord and Church
(1 Thess 4:13-18)
8.Resurrection2. Focus: Israel and kingdom
(Romans 11)
9.Rapture2. World is deceived (2 Thess 2:3-12)
9.Resurrection2. Satan is bound (Rev 20:1-2)
10.Rapture2. No judgement mentioned on earth
10.Resurrection2. Follows the Tribulation period
judgment and followed by the sheep/goats
judgment.
11.Rapture2. Time of joy. (1Thessalonians 4:17-18)
11.Resurrection2. Time of sorrow. (Matthew 24:30)
12.Rapture2. relative peace and prosperity. (Lk.17:26-30).
12.Resurrection2. the worst war the world has ever seen. (Mt.24:21,22).
13.Rapture2. . Christians promised they will be delivered
-- from the wrath to come (1 Thes 1:10, 5:9)
13.Resurrection2. Israeli told to flee the wrath
to come (Matt 3:7, Luke 3:7)
-----------------------
The a-mill MUST say that 'and' in Matthew 24:3 gives
2 different names for the same set of events
Last edited by a moderator:
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Five 'and's of Eschatology
2. Matthew 24:30-31
(files: 5andsOFeschn.txt where n=0 to 5. File 2,
Last edited, 8Dec08)
(both the rapture2 and the resurreciton2 are part of
what Revelation 20:5 calls THE FIRST RESURRECTION.)
2. Matthew 24:30-31
------------------------------
Ed's Pretribulation, Premillennial view of Matthew 24:
Here is a pre-tribulation Rapture of the Church,
pre-Millinnial Return of Christ,
Futurist understanding of Matthew 24.
In Matthew 24:3 the disciples of Jesus
ask three questions:
(in the order asked):
1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
2. What is the sign of His coming?
3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Jesus answers these questions in
Matthew 24:4-44, then follows them with
some parables in Matthew 24:45 through Matthew 25..
Here are the answers of Jesus in the
order the questions were asked:
1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Matthew 24:4-14
2. What is the sign of His coming?
Matthew 24:15-30
3. What is the sign of the end of age?
Matthew 24:31-44
Here is a summary of the answers
in the order in which events will occur
(not in the order in which the questions were asked):
1. When will the Temple be destroyed?
Soon, it was in 70AD
3. What is the sign of the end of age?
No signs preceding the end of the age
2. What is the sign of His coming?
The Sign of His coming will be the
Tribulation period.
Matthew 24:31-44
The Gathering in Matthew 24:31 is the
Rapture/resurrection which ends the
current church age (gentile age, age of grace,
last days, etc.)
Thus Matthew 24:4-14 describes all of the
church age even up to this time.
Matthew 24:4-14 describes the church age.
The signs of Matthew 24:4-14 are signs
that the church age continues
NOT that the end is near..
That is Ed's (and probably only Ed's) pre-trib,
pre-mill viewpoint - the polysendton AND.
An a-mill must believe that the AND starting
Matthew 24:31 connects Matthew 24:31 to the events that happen after the
Tribulation,
the events denoted in Matthew 24:29 & 30.
And the a-mill must believe that the signs
of Matthew 24:4-14 are signs of something
OTHER than the church age continues.
What does the signs in Matthew 24:4-14 mean, Mr a-mill?
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Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Quotes below are from Brother DeafPosttrib, from post # 30 on the following page. DeafPosttrib is a post-tribulation only believer (as his name suggests). DeafPosttrib is deaf (as his name suggests). I also believe in a rapture1 after the Tribulation Period Judgement. But it is not the
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=55561&page=3
Brother DeafPosttrib: // Both Christ and Paul never actual say that saints' gathering together would be occur seven years earlier prior His "Coming" in the four gospels and Pauline epistles. //
This is correct. Both Christ and Paul speak of what I call the Rapture2 (pretribulation) and Resurrection2 (post-trib) but not the timing. The timing passages are in Daniel and Revelation (John). One has to put the passages side by side. So no point is ever made saying one passage doesn't mention what is mentioned in another passage. In fact, there is a perfect number of mentions of one of the two halves (each 3-1/2 years) of Daniel's 70th year and the whole preiod (7 years)
Brother DeafPosttrib: // Yet, both told us very clear that our gathering together will be AT "coming" same time, therefore, rapture will be occur AT second advent same time. //
It is clear to me in the writings about Christ and the writings of Paul (including Hebrews) that the rapture2 and the resurrection2 are two seperate events seperated by 7 literal years (360 day literal years).
Brother DeafPosttrib: // I did show you of OT verses which citied one future coming and one future judgment day. Yet you say, you do not actual see them. What's matter with your eyes. Do you need a bigger glasses? //
Your brother needs less scarasm and more logic. The Bible as a whole teaches ONE TYPE OF JUDGEMENT DAY: for all people, applied as often as needed. The Bible cleary teaches ONE TYPE OF COMING: for all people, applied as often as needed.
One Judgement: - all people (dead & alive) will be judged
Two judgements:
1. judgement of the living
2. judgement of the dead
(this 2 Tim 4:1 speaks of both one judgement and two judgements)
Two judgements (defined elsewhere, like Rev 20)
1. judgement of the just (in Christ)
2. judgement of the damned (not in Christ)
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=55561&page=3
Brother DeafPosttrib: // Both Christ and Paul never actual say that saints' gathering together would be occur seven years earlier prior His "Coming" in the four gospels and Pauline epistles. //
This is correct. Both Christ and Paul speak of what I call the Rapture2 (pretribulation) and Resurrection2 (post-trib) but not the timing. The timing passages are in Daniel and Revelation (John). One has to put the passages side by side. So no point is ever made saying one passage doesn't mention what is mentioned in another passage. In fact, there is a perfect number of mentions of one of the two halves (each 3-1/2 years) of Daniel's 70th year and the whole preiod (7 years)
Brother DeafPosttrib: // Yet, both told us very clear that our gathering together will be AT "coming" same time, therefore, rapture will be occur AT second advent same time. //
It is clear to me in the writings about Christ and the writings of Paul (including Hebrews) that the rapture2 and the resurrection2 are two seperate events seperated by 7 literal years (360 day literal years).
Brother DeafPosttrib: // I did show you of OT verses which citied one future coming and one future judgment day. Yet you say, you do not actual see them. What's matter with your eyes. Do you need a bigger glasses? //
Your brother needs less scarasm and more logic. The Bible as a whole teaches ONE TYPE OF JUDGEMENT DAY: for all people, applied as often as needed. The Bible cleary teaches ONE TYPE OF COMING: for all people, applied as often as needed.
Here 'day' means 'the appropriate time(s)'. Any other meaning you assign 'day' here conflicts another verse. God is the holder of the timing. God is NOT limited to one and only one of the 22 kinds of day in our dictionary.Brother DeafPosttrib said:
The CLEAR teaching of this 2 Tim 4:1 is that our Lord, Messiah Jesus, will judge all people, both living and dead. The timeline here is not clear. 2 Tim 4:1 needs to be put next to a timeline verse which mentions time in it.Brother DeafPosttrib said:
One Judgement: - all people (dead & alive) will be judged
Two judgements:
1. judgement of the living
2. judgement of the dead
(this 2 Tim 4:1 speaks of both one judgement and two judgements)
Two judgements (defined elsewhere, like Rev 20)
1. judgement of the just (in Christ)
2. judgement of the damned (not in Christ)
EdEdwards:
"Who can't buy into the statements:
1. the a-mill has a problem buying into #5 for the whole concept of a-mill has to have a spiritual (ONLY) meaning to the Millennial Messanic Kingdom. Some a-mill get around the meaning of 'literal' by saying the literal return of Christ in the Second Advent is literal/spiritual instead of literal/physical. But hardly anybody buys into that "
GE:
I'm 'a-mill' and 'traditional fundamentalist' and what you say of a'mills' here isn't true!
"Who can't buy into the statements:
1. the a-mill has a problem buying into #5 for the whole concept of a-mill has to have a spiritual (ONLY) meaning to the Millennial Messanic Kingdom. Some a-mill get around the meaning of 'literal' by saying the literal return of Christ in the Second Advent is literal/spiritual instead of literal/physical. But hardly anybody buys into that "
GE:
I'm 'a-mill' and 'traditional fundamentalist' and what you say of a'mills' here isn't true!
Ed Edwards, every time you post, you get more elaborate and more incomprehensible!
Look at this,
"1. the inspiration and infallibility of scripture
2. the deity of Christ (including His virgin birth)
3. the substitutionary atonement of Christ's death
4. the literal resurrection of Christ from the dead
5. the literal return of Christ in the Second Advent
These are called the fundamentals of fundamentalism.
I consider them axiomatic (assumptions, presuppositions)
from which I can show logically that there are three each 'Kingdom of God'."
Why could you not stop at, "I consider them axiomatic"?
Chuck the 'assumptions, presuppositions and logical' stuff, and perhaps a bloke like me might understand you?
Look at this,
"1. the inspiration and infallibility of scripture
2. the deity of Christ (including His virgin birth)
3. the substitutionary atonement of Christ's death
4. the literal resurrection of Christ from the dead
5. the literal return of Christ in the Second Advent
These are called the fundamentals of fundamentalism.
I consider them axiomatic (assumptions, presuppositions)
from which I can show logically that there are three each 'Kingdom of God'."
Why could you not stop at, "I consider them axiomatic"?
Chuck the 'assumptions, presuppositions and logical' stuff, and perhaps a bloke like me might understand you?
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Gerhard Ebersoehn said:
Feel free to write or pay someone to write a definition of what an 'a-mill' and 'traditional fundamentalist' are. If you don't define the terms, then I will.
1. What does an 'a-mill' beleive?
2a. What does an 'a-trib, a'mill' believe?
or (choose the one you believe)
2b. What does an 'post-trib a-mill' believe?
3. What does a 'traditional fundamentalist' believe?
Alright, Ed Edwards, here is it --- you have prepared my assignment for me:-
"1. the inspiration and infallibility of scripture
2. the deity of Christ (including His virgin birth)
3. the substitutionary atonement of Christ's death
4. the literal resurrection of Christ from the dead
5. the literal return of Christ in the Second Advent
These are called the fundamentals of fundamentalism.
I consider them axiomatic
"1. the inspiration and infallibility of scripture
2. the deity of Christ (including His virgin birth)
3. the substitutionary atonement of Christ's death
4. the literal resurrection of Christ from the dead
5. the literal return of Christ in the Second Advent
These are called the fundamentals of fundamentalism.
I consider them axiomatic
It boils down to this:
The Kingdom of God is one!
The Kingdom of God is one, also, in this place and time where Christ enters into His Suffering He enters into the Glory and Kingdom of God at the table.
After a lifetime of theology or my best attempt at theology, this has been the consummation of its consummation to me. Here I have found the Kindom of God in all its dimensions, facets and eras-- Christ in His Suffering is Christ Triumphant by the Power of his resurrection from the dead. After the resurrection of Christ from the dead there awaits none another Kingdom of God.
The Kingdom of God is one!
The Kingdom of God is one, also, in this place and time where Christ enters into His Suffering He enters into the Glory and Kingdom of God at the table.
After a lifetime of theology or my best attempt at theology, this has been the consummation of its consummation to me. Here I have found the Kindom of God in all its dimensions, facets and eras-- Christ in His Suffering is Christ Triumphant by the Power of his resurrection from the dead. After the resurrection of Christ from the dead there awaits none another Kingdom of God.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
A non-Biblical 'proof':
Billwald: // (Most) ALL Baptists were "reformed" until Darby invented Dispensationalism and the theological need for the Jews to rebuild the Temple so that Jesus could return. //
I'm teaching my brand of dispensation eschology Theology at:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=54854&page=6
I'm only in about the second month of a two-year-long study of the subject. There I'm proceeding logically from the five Fundamentals of the Christian Faith to Ed's dispensational pre-tribuation rapture, pre-millinnial Second Coming, futurist Eschatological Theology. Not to late to join that discussion (actually everybody likes to debunk the easy stuf that has already been argued against: the dispensational Theology of Darby and Scofield - both of which are so unlike mine.) I stand head and shoulders about Darby and Scofield cause I noted (about 1973) that in 1964 the world stock of nuclear weapons enabled mankind to do most everything BAD in Revelation and nothing GOOD. Darby didn't know that when he taught his Theology back in 1828-1888. Scofield didn't know that when he helped the Fundamentalist Christians start the Fundamentalist (anti-liberal) Christian Theology Back in 1895-1921. In 1895 Cyrus Scofield started working for one of the church/Bible School of Moody (the great evangelist). Scofield was the great documenter via his Bible Comentary Notes that guided the evangelic, fundamentalist, conservative wings of protestantism. I even married into a KJV with Schofield's notes in it. So i read them at least back after 1963 when I married that Lady. I never really read Darby until after I developed most of Ed's dispensational pre-tribuation rapture, pre-millinnial Second Coming, futurist Eschatological Theology via the study of the Holy Bibles and the ministering of the Holy Spirit.
Here is what I learned from a Jewish rabbinical student:
When the Jewish Messiah comes he will do these three things (and that is how he will be known):
1. Bring Peace to Israel
2. Restore the Daily Sacrifice
3. Rebuild the Temple
As soon as peace is brought to Israel, the daily sacrifice can be restored, the Temple its self is used for the yearly sacrifice. The temple can be built while the daily sacrifice is taking place daily.
The way I read the Torah & the Prophets & the writings of the followers of Yeshua Ben-Yoseph ('Jesus' in English) of Nazareth (also called the New Testament) is that whoever brings these three things will be recognized by the Jews as the Messiah. This is true even if it is the Anti-Messiah (Pseudo-Messiah, False Messiah) that does it.
Billwald: // (Most) ALL Baptists were "reformed" until Darby invented Dispensationalism and the theological need for the Jews to rebuild the Temple so that Jesus could return. //
I'm teaching my brand of dispensation eschology Theology at:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=54854&page=6
I'm only in about the second month of a two-year-long study of the subject. There I'm proceeding logically from the five Fundamentals of the Christian Faith to Ed's dispensational pre-tribuation rapture, pre-millinnial Second Coming, futurist Eschatological Theology. Not to late to join that discussion (actually everybody likes to debunk the easy stuf that has already been argued against: the dispensational Theology of Darby and Scofield - both of which are so unlike mine.) I stand head and shoulders about Darby and Scofield cause I noted (about 1973) that in 1964 the world stock of nuclear weapons enabled mankind to do most everything BAD in Revelation and nothing GOOD. Darby didn't know that when he taught his Theology back in 1828-1888. Scofield didn't know that when he helped the Fundamentalist Christians start the Fundamentalist (anti-liberal) Christian Theology Back in 1895-1921. In 1895 Cyrus Scofield started working for one of the church/Bible School of Moody (the great evangelist). Scofield was the great documenter via his Bible Comentary Notes that guided the evangelic, fundamentalist, conservative wings of protestantism. I even married into a KJV with Schofield's notes in it. So i read them at least back after 1963 when I married that Lady. I never really read Darby until after I developed most of Ed's dispensational pre-tribuation rapture, pre-millinnial Second Coming, futurist Eschatological Theology via the study of the Holy Bibles and the ministering of the Holy Spirit.
Here is what I learned from a Jewish rabbinical student:
When the Jewish Messiah comes he will do these three things (and that is how he will be known):
1. Bring Peace to Israel
2. Restore the Daily Sacrifice
3. Rebuild the Temple
As soon as peace is brought to Israel, the daily sacrifice can be restored, the Temple its self is used for the yearly sacrifice. The temple can be built while the daily sacrifice is taking place daily.
The way I read the Torah & the Prophets & the writings of the followers of Yeshua Ben-Yoseph ('Jesus' in English) of Nazareth (also called the New Testament) is that whoever brings these three things will be recognized by the Jews as the Messiah. This is true even if it is the Anti-Messiah (Pseudo-Messiah, False Messiah) that does it.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
Ed Edwards said elsewhere: // Read Revelation 7, the scene right after the pretribulation rapture2 of the saints (church age saints, mostly gentile but some Messianic Jews). 144,000 Messianic Jews will be sent to the earth marked with God's protection to preach to the rest of the Jews (a lot more than 144,000).
Found the same elsewhere on BB: //Revelation 7 states nothing about 144,000 Messianic Jews being sent to the earth. //
Right, nothing is stated. But, the pieces hold together better if those are Messianic Jews from the church age. Else-wise, where do these guys (that is another place in Revelation that they are men) come from?
When I get around to it here I'll say that one Kingdom of God is the saved mostly gentiles (but includes some Messanic Jews) of the Time of the Gentiles (AKA: Church age, the age we live in, etc).
Revelation 7:2-4 (NIV):
2 Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3 "Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God." 4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
This piece fits best if one assumes the 144K to be Messanic Jews from the Gentile Age (Church Age). They have just been resurrected (this scene works best if fit in taking place in heaven (earth can be seen from there, the four angels, etc) just after the pretribulation rapture2.
The 144,000 (12K from each of the 12 tribes of Israel) are set aside for ministry to the Jewish Israeli during the Tribulation Period (Tribulation Judgement, Tribulation Time, 70th weeks of Daniel, etc). They also are sealed for protection from harm by the dark forces of the Antichrist (Beast from the Sea (Rev 12), Man of Perdition ( 2 Thess 2:4 or so), Prince who shall come (Daniel 9), etc.)
Of course, I need to explain some rules of logic here how that fits in. I don't know why people want to slash my teachings piece by piece without looking at all the pieces???
Ed Edwards: // Saved Jews are part of the Gentile Age Church. Messanic Jews believe that Jesus is the Messiah, that God raised Him from the dead, and confess Jesus is Lord.
same place elsewhere: // I don't understand. Is a Messianic Jew saved? If he is saved he is part of the Gentile Age Church. //
Yes, that is what I said. Thanks for listening. I'll try to prove it all here starting with the axioms: the five fundamentals of Christianity.
Found the same elsewhere on BB: //Revelation 7 states nothing about 144,000 Messianic Jews being sent to the earth. //
Right, nothing is stated. But, the pieces hold together better if those are Messianic Jews from the church age. Else-wise, where do these guys (that is another place in Revelation that they are men) come from?
When I get around to it here I'll say that one Kingdom of God is the saved mostly gentiles (but includes some Messanic Jews) of the Time of the Gentiles (AKA: Church age, the age we live in, etc).
Revelation 7:2-4 (NIV):
2 Then I saw another angel coming up from the east, having the seal of the living God. He called out in a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm the land and the sea: 3 "Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God." 4 Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
This piece fits best if one assumes the 144K to be Messanic Jews from the Gentile Age (Church Age). They have just been resurrected (this scene works best if fit in taking place in heaven (earth can be seen from there, the four angels, etc) just after the pretribulation rapture2.
The 144,000 (12K from each of the 12 tribes of Israel) are set aside for ministry to the Jewish Israeli during the Tribulation Period (Tribulation Judgement, Tribulation Time, 70th weeks of Daniel, etc). They also are sealed for protection from harm by the dark forces of the Antichrist (Beast from the Sea (Rev 12), Man of Perdition ( 2 Thess 2:4 or so), Prince who shall come (Daniel 9), etc.)
Of course, I need to explain some rules of logic here how that fits in. I don't know why people want to slash my teachings piece by piece without looking at all the pieces???
Ed Edwards: // Saved Jews are part of the Gentile Age Church. Messanic Jews believe that Jesus is the Messiah, that God raised Him from the dead, and confess Jesus is Lord.
same place elsewhere: // I don't understand. Is a Messianic Jew saved? If he is saved he is part of the Gentile Age Church. //
Yes, that is what I said. Thanks for listening. I'll try to prove it all here starting with the axioms: the five fundamentals of Christianity.
Last edited by a moderator:
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
1 Thessalonians 4:14-17
14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Nay Sayer: // This is a partial description of the general resurrection. //
Amen, Brother- Preach it. This is a description of what I have defined as a Rapture2. and contains the very words I used to define 'rapture1' and 'resurrection' :
rapture1 - a set of action by Jesus for living saints wherein: "we which are alive and remain shall be caught up" (1 Thess 4:17)
resurrection1 - a set of action by Jesus for dead saints wherein: // For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: // (1 Thess 4:16)
This passage is also what I use to describe the common elements both the rapture2 and the resurrection2 (you say it only defines resurrection2; I say both). l I get the uncommon elements from other places - see the next post.:
rapture2 - a set of pretribulation events where a resurrection1 is followed ilmmediately by a resurrection1
resurrection2 - a set of post-tribulation events where a resurrection1 is followed immediately by a resurrection1
Nay Sayer: // Notice this is no secret rapture as shown in verse 16. //
Yes, there is no secret rapture. Go look up secret rapture in BB, those who mention it either
1. people who don't believe in a secret rapture
2. people who are trying to tell others that there is no secret rapture.
I've never seen a 'secret rapture' mentioned in BB by anybody who expects it to be debated - yes, I have looked for it.
Come on - the rapture2 (as I defined) is SO LOUD it literally WAKES THE DEAD! You have beat up another STRAWMAN again. When are you going to discuss with me, what I am saying. I am not, never was, John Nelson Darby nor a reincarnation of his spirit. I'm Ed Edwards, first time my soul has been on earth - first time AND last tilme.
Nay Sayer: // There is no rapture 1 or rapture 2. //
Strange that a found one of each. Most people let their eschatology get confused by not discriminating between the rapture1 and the rapture2
Nay Sayer: // There is a First Resurrection, that of Jesus Christ, and a second Resurrection described in John 5:28, 29 and 1 Corinthians 15. //
Uh, 1 Cor 15 talks about my rapture2 and my resurrection2 - two different events which occur in the same day (70th 'week' day of Daniel) one at the start of the 7-years, one at the end.
Uh, the rapture2 + the resurrection2 ARE called the FIRST RESURRECTION - the resurrection of the just. The SECOND RESURRECTION isn't mentined by that term in the Bible - it is a resurrection of the unjust. I might also mention that the mathematical term 'first' and 'one and only' have totally different meanings. In Revelation 20 the First Resurrection is (when you study the whole Bible) made of several resurrections at different times. If God had wanted to teach one and only one Resurrection - God would have had Brother Elder John to say 'ONE And Only' Resurrection.
14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Nay Sayer: // This is a partial description of the general resurrection. //
Amen, Brother- Preach it. This is a description of what I have defined as a Rapture2. and contains the very words I used to define 'rapture1' and 'resurrection' :
rapture1 - a set of action by Jesus for living saints wherein: "we which are alive and remain shall be caught up" (1 Thess 4:17)
resurrection1 - a set of action by Jesus for dead saints wherein: // For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: // (1 Thess 4:16)
This passage is also what I use to describe the common elements both the rapture2 and the resurrection2 (you say it only defines resurrection2; I say both). l I get the uncommon elements from other places - see the next post.:
rapture2 - a set of pretribulation events where a resurrection1 is followed ilmmediately by a resurrection1
resurrection2 - a set of post-tribulation events where a resurrection1 is followed immediately by a resurrection1
Nay Sayer: // Notice this is no secret rapture as shown in verse 16. //
Yes, there is no secret rapture. Go look up secret rapture in BB, those who mention it either
1. people who don't believe in a secret rapture
2. people who are trying to tell others that there is no secret rapture.
I've never seen a 'secret rapture' mentioned in BB by anybody who expects it to be debated - yes, I have looked for it.
Come on - the rapture2 (as I defined) is SO LOUD it literally WAKES THE DEAD! You have beat up another STRAWMAN again. When are you going to discuss with me, what I am saying. I am not, never was, John Nelson Darby nor a reincarnation of his spirit. I'm Ed Edwards, first time my soul has been on earth - first time AND last tilme.
Nay Sayer: // There is no rapture 1 or rapture 2. //
Strange that a found one of each. Most people let their eschatology get confused by not discriminating between the rapture1 and the rapture2
Nay Sayer: // There is a First Resurrection, that of Jesus Christ, and a second Resurrection described in John 5:28, 29 and 1 Corinthians 15. //
Uh, 1 Cor 15 talks about my rapture2 and my resurrection2 - two different events which occur in the same day (70th 'week' day of Daniel) one at the start of the 7-years, one at the end.
Uh, the rapture2 + the resurrection2 ARE called the FIRST RESURRECTION - the resurrection of the just. The SECOND RESURRECTION isn't mentined by that term in the Bible - it is a resurrection of the unjust. I might also mention that the mathematical term 'first' and 'one and only' have totally different meanings. In Revelation 20 the First Resurrection is (when you study the whole Bible) made of several resurrections at different times. If God had wanted to teach one and only one Resurrection - God would have had Brother Elder John to say 'ONE And Only' Resurrection.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
just before this post, there were 199 hits on:
"secret rapture" site:baptistboard.com
in Google.
That is search for the phrase 'secret rapture'
but only in baptistboard.com places
There are 87 hits if you search for my name also:
"secret rapture" site:baptistboard.com "Ed Edwards"
But that includes pages where I didn't post 'secret rapture' but only posted something
Go check them all 199. All will be pre-tribs saying 'no secret rapture" it is public and folks saying the don't believe in a secret rapture. Nobody is advocating 'secret rapture' any more, at least not on BB.
"secret rapture" site:baptistboard.com
in Google.
That is search for the phrase 'secret rapture'
but only in baptistboard.com places
There are 87 hits if you search for my name also:
"secret rapture" site:baptistboard.com "Ed Edwards"
But that includes pages where I didn't post 'secret rapture' but only posted something
Go check them all 199. All will be pre-tribs saying 'no secret rapture" it is public and folks saying the don't believe in a secret rapture. Nobody is advocating 'secret rapture' any more, at least not on BB.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
// Also note that in the passages from Thessalonians and Corinthians the change takes place in the twinkling of an eye. //
I think that would be the change of each individual. There may be 200 Million to 400 Million raptured alone. In Revelation 7, rilght after the pretribulation rapture the bible speaks of unnumberd saints - this might include both dead First Covenant Church (Jewish Israeli) elect saints and dead Second Conenant Church (mostly Gentiles but some Messanic Jews) elect saints. This would have to be lots more than the 200 Million strong army of the Kings of the East, also mentioned in Revelation.
I think that would be the change of each individual. There may be 200 Million to 400 Million raptured alone. In Revelation 7, rilght after the pretribulation rapture the bible speaks of unnumberd saints - this might include both dead First Covenant Church (Jewish Israeli) elect saints and dead Second Conenant Church (mostly Gentiles but some Messanic Jews) elect saints. This would have to be lots more than the 200 Million strong army of the Kings of the East, also mentioned in Revelation.