Three Kingdom's of God (Eschatology)

[Ed Edwards]

Taught Pretrib? (Poll topic from Dec 2004)

see archives at:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=29110&page=12

i was taught pretrib and still am pretrib
20 47.62%
i was taught pretrib but now have another stance
16 38.10%
i was taught another stance but am now pretrib
2 4.76%
i was taught another stance and still stand there
3 7.14%
i don't understand or i can't deside
1 2.38%

Voters: 42.


This poll was closed cause the participants began to question the salvation of others. IMHO, I never break friendship or church-ship over these Eschatology stands.

My current pastor said that when he was in Southwestern Seminary (Fort Worth, Texas) in the middle and late 1960s that they were nearly all a-mills (pretribs pretty much have to be pre-mills).

Theologies are NOT made by consensus, for there never is much consensus there. This data is illustrative only.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Five 'and's of Eschatology
3. 2 Thess 2:1

Subtitle: that separate the rapture2 from the resurrection2
(files: 5andsOFeschn.txt where n=0 to 5. File 3,
Last edited, 8Dec08)

(both the rapture2 and the resurreciton2 are part of
what Revelation 20:5 calls THE FIRST RESURRECTION.)

3. 2 Thess 2:1

//Does the word " gather together" (episunago)
in 2 Thess 2:1 mean the Rapture?//

IMHO - yes, the rapture2, in fact

IMHO the (episunago) in Matthew 24:31
means "gather together", the rapture2, also.

IMHO the following examples of the Coming of Jesus
in power; (resurrection 2) terminology is bolded, the
gathering of God's Church Age saints (rapture2)
is underlined.
The seperating AND (Greek 'Kai') is writ red
and large.

Mat 24:30-31 (KJV1611 Edition):
And then shall appeare the signe of the Sonne of man
in heauen: and then shall all the Tribes of
the earth mourne, and they shall see
the Sonne of man comingin the clouds of heauen,
with power and great glory.
31 AND hee shall send his Angels with a great sound
of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his Elect
from the foure windes, from one end of heauen to the other.

2Th 2:1 (KJV1611 Edition):
Now wee beseech you, brethren, by the comming
of our Lord Iesus Christ, AND by our gathering together
vnto him,

In both cases, the resurrection2 and the rapture2
(with variant descriptors) are described and joined
by an AND meaning two separate sets of events.
Elements of both of the two events are mentioned in other scriptures.

The a-mill error has the AND meaning a connector of
two set descriptions of the same set. But that has the largely
Gentile Church go through the Tribulation Judgement
period - a period God has set aside to save all National Jews
and zap Gentiles that mistreated the Jews lo these past 2 Millennial.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Five 'and's of Eschatology
4. Titus 2:13

Subtitle: that separate the rapture2 from the resurrection2
(files: 5andsOFeschn.txt where n=0 to 5. File 4,
Last edited, 8Dec08)

(both the rapture2 and the resurreciton2 are part of
what Revelation 20:5 calls THE FIRST RESURRECTION.)

4. Titus 2:13
​

Tit 2:13 (KJV1611 Edition):
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God, and our Sauiour Iesus Christ,

A-mill - AND connects two different names for the same set
pre-trib, pre-mill - AND connects two different sets of events

 

[Ed Edwards]

In a post dated 17 Dec 2008 it is said:

// There is not a single passage of Scripture that speaks of the “so-called rapture”; just as there is not a single verse of Scripture where Jesus Christ definitively offers a Messianic Kingdom to the Jews. If so then post them! //

We do, they fly right by you. The Bible, written ultimately by G-d and His right hand best son: Messiah Jesus -- it says it in all parts of the Bible.

// We are currently in the millennial reign awaiting the return of Jesus Christ. //

The reign is not just a 'millennial reign' it is a Millennial Messianic Reign (you have to use all the scriptures, you know) of Messiah Jesus. BTW, the Millennial Messianic Reign of Messiah Jesus STARTS after the Return to earth of Jesus Christ is complete. Then the Millennial Messianic Reign of Messiah Jesus begins. So no, the second Coming of Jesus is NOT happened yet, and the Millennial Messianic Reign of Messiah Jesus has not started yet. But it could be, indeed will be soon* (* note: that is 'soon' in G-d's timing).

 

[Ed Edwards]

I posted the following 4 years ago on 12-16-2004:

2 Thessaloniains 2:14-17 (HCSB=Holman Christian Standard Bible):

He called you to this through our gospel, so that you might
obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15 Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions
you were taught, either by our message or by our letter.
16 May our Lord Jesus Christ Himself and God our Father,
who has loved us and given us eternal encouragement and
good hope by grace,
17 encourage your hearts and strengthen you
in every good work and word

2 Thessalonians 2:17 shows the purpose of all eschatology - to
exhort we saints to good works and good words.
The pretibulation rapture/resurrection is the traditions
a majority of us were taught. I teach the same traditions
not from Darby, not from Paul Couch, but from Jesus, Paul
of Tarsus, Peter, and John -- the traditions of the apostisles.
The pretibulation rapture1 following a
resurrection1 is part of the
GOSPEL of Hope preached by the early Church. Yes, i use some
21st century terms to talk about it, but it is the same hope
taught in the 1st century (1-100AD). The hope is that one
generation (not necessarily mine) will be transformed and
glorified by Jesus without every having to die first.
Sorry, but if the Wrath of God is poured upon Christisans then
there is NO HOPE here, yet this hope is the hope taught
from the beginning by Jesus, Peter, Paul, and John.

I'll believe what God said and let other men
be shown to be the fool

 

[Ed Edwards]

Found in a Baptist Only Zone (BOZ):
// But for anyone to think that Daniel 9:27 has anything to do with God pulling the Church out of the world, with its mission incomplete, is exactly what I mean by dispensational fiction. //

Uh, I'd say it is an a-mill fantasy. The Church Age church will be through with it's mission when Jesus performs the rapture2 (some call it the pre-tribulation CAUGHT UP, to use KJV talk.

The pre-tribulation rapture2 (a resurrection1 followed immediately by a rapture1), pre-millennial Messianic Kingdom of Messiah Jesus - the true understanding of Bible Eschatology -- that viewpoint represents the Prophesied 70th week of Daniel 9. I now have the witness of four Messanic Jews (Jews who believe that Jesus is the Messiah mentioned in the Old Testament - When the Mission of the Largely Gentile Church Age elect Church saints is DONE. The mission of the Chruch Age Church is to save all the gentiles possible. When the mission is done, then God will rapture2 the church right out of the world Church Kingdomof Messiah Jesus, right into the Heavenly Kingdom of God . Then G-d will perform a 7-year (7x360days= 2520 /1260 days is one-half of 2520 days) Judgement called the 70th week of Daniel. I like to call it the Tribulation Period (this 'tribulation' set is a set of days 2x1260 days = 2520 days) Judgement. For not only is it a time, it is a period of Judgment upon & against the Gentile Nations.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Matthew 24:13 (KJV1873):

But he that shall endure unto
the end, the same shall be saved.

This statement is true:
IF he endures to the end;
THEN he shall be saved.

Logic Dictates that this statement is
also correct because the first one was:

If he is not saved;
Then He did not endure to the end.

There are two statements that come from
this that are independent of the first
statement (I didn't say they were true or
false); I leave it up to the reader to
prove one of them true from the Bible.
If one is true, both are true [by the rules
of Logic] ):

IF he endures NOT to the end;
THEN he shall NOT be saved.

IF he is saved;
THEN he endures to the end.

Matthew 24:13 does NOT support the
truth of these last two propositions.
Some people think it does, but they
are wrong.

-------------------------------
An example where the second set of propositions
are not true, even though the original set
of propositions is true.

First set of propositions (True)
If you smoke; then you will die prematurly.
If you die NOT prematurely;
then you did NOT smoke.

Second set of propositions (False)

If you do not smoke; then you will not die prematurely
[it is false, you could die from a fall while
cleaning your gutters]

If you die prematurely; then you smoked.
[perchance you die prematurely cause
you got lung cancer from pollution]

 

[Ed Edwards]

I wrote this earlier (maybe several years, the quote comes from long ago and maybe even far away?)

// In Revelation 13:3 tells us, Antichrist will be wounded to death, then be healed to live to shock the world. He will cause world to worship him as god. //

For your statement to be true, one must make the following presumption:
The following three passages are speaking of the same person:

1. Daniel 9:26-27
2. John 2:17-18
3. Revelation 13: Beast from the Sea


Daniel 9: 26-27 (HCSB = Christian Standard Bible /Holman, 2003/ ):
After those 62 weeks
the Messiah will be cut off
and will have nothing.
The people of the coming prince
will destroy the city and the sanctuary.
The end will come with a flood,
and until the end there will be war;
desolations are decreed.
27 He will make a firm covenant
with many for one week,
but in the middle of the week
he will put a stop to sacrifice and offering.
And the abomination of desolation
will be on a wing of the temple
until the decreed destruction
is poured out on the desolator."

The person I've marked Bold (and both 'he' which refer to him) must be assumed to be the Antichrist. (do NOT confuse Antichrist with 'Messiah the Prince' (i.e. Jesus).

1 John 2:17-18 (HCSB):
17 And the world with its lust is passing away, but the one who does God's will remains forever.
18 Children, it is the last hour. And as you have heard, "Antichrist is coming," even now many antichrists have come. We know from this that it is the last hour.

That speaks of the 'Antichrist' who is coming (even in our time).
Note when you get Daniel 9:26-27 talking about 'Antichrist' you have John speaking of 'the last hour' and Daniel speaking of 'one week' AS THE SAME. BTW, the 'one week' = the 70th week of Daniel = 7 years. -- but that is another row to hoe

2 John 1:7-8 (HCSB):
7 Many deceivers have gone out into the world; they do not confess the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist. 8 Watch yourselves so that you don't lose what we have worked for, but you may receive a full reward.

This is a class of person called 'antichrist' = one who deceives & does not confess the "coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh". Some say this concerns the First Coming of Messiah Jesus. I say (presuming): it concerns Both the First Coming of Messiah Jesus as a child at the manger in Bethlehem AND the Second Coming of Messiah Jesus to get His own people & Show Himself in Glory destroying the Antichrist person.

Revelation 13:3 (HCSB):
One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was astonished and followed the beast

This beast ; (and the other discussion of the Beast from the Sea in Revelation 13) must be the Antichrist & you have to assume it is to get there. Revelation 13:3 does not say that this is the Antichrist. The only way you can get this Antichrist 'Beast from the sea' is to ASSUME (or Presume) AND ASSUME (or Presume) that the Antichrist is the 'Prince to come] of Daniel 9. Or if one thinks they can, PROVE these relationships from the scripture. [ or after the pre-tribualtion rapture2, when the Antichrist is revealed (2 Thess 2:3-5) then everybody will know that the Antichrist is these other prophecies as well. ]

Personally I assume that all these speak of the Antichrist. But I just want every body to know - The Bible is NOT saying it - we are guessing it (or faith-ing it - untill faith becomes sight.)

-------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Butler
Some help, please.

How do we know that the Restrainer is the Holy Spirit? Can anyone provide a specific, unequivocal, not-subject-to-any-other-interpretation scripture verse which identifies the HS as the Restrainer?


Simple answer: no

More complex answer: If you make a logical assumption that the Restrainer in 2 Thessalonians 2 is the Holy Spirit, if it does not conflict the rest of one's Theology, then it is likely true. I find a better logical assumption that leads to no contradictions is that the Restrainer in 2 Thessalonians is the Church age Christians and Messianic Jews in whom the Holy Spirit dwells.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Butler
Can anyone provide a clear, unequivocal, not-subject-to-any-other-interpretation that I Thess 4:13-18 is pre-tribulational?


No, again, one has to lay the pieces side by side and figure out from the clues of the Bible. I find that 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:11 is one of the most pretribulation directed passages in the Holy Bible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Butler
Can anyone provide a clear, unequivocal, not-subject----oh, you know--that the wrath mentioned in I Thess 5:9 is the wrath of the Anti-Christ?

see my answer above, a logical assumption that 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:11 is talking about what I call the pre-tribulation rapture2 makes more sense here than any other logical assumption (like it is talking about the post-trib ONLY resurrection1/rapture1).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Butler
Can anyone provide a clear, unequivocal--oh, you know--that the 144,000 in Rev. 7 are Jewish evangelists or missionaries.

My best logical assumption is that both the scene of the 144,000 Jews in Revelation 7 and the scene around the Throne of God is right after the pre-tribulation rapture2 (a resurrection1 followed imedidately by a rapture1).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Butler
How do we know that the Anti-Christ is alive today?

God has a plan, God is ready to implement the plan anytime. I think God has has an antichrist standing by since at least 70AD, if needed. There is no way to know if God is going to need an Antichrist soon, but God is always ready, anytime to judge all of errant Mankind on earth (if only to save them from self-destruction).


I use phrases like:
"pre-tribulation rapture2 (a resurrection1 followed imedidately by a rapture1)"
as I want to be precise in what I say. Each of these terms are carefully defined to have specific meanings. If that makes the subject harder to understand, then so be it. Go listen to someone who doesn't know what they are talking about nor what is going to happen nor what the prophets said nor what God is intending to do for us. I've got lots of hope that God is going to spring a generation of people soon (not that there is even one worthy of it) to fulfill HIS special plan).

As for the other question (asked privately), yes I was a Rocket Scientist and a Brain Surgeon - that is if one considers a missle a 'rocket' and the computer that flies the missile a 'brain'. Those of you who was able to pass Differential Equations aught to be able to keep up with my points, eh? Those who can't follow my points will just be surprised when blessing you weren't expecting unfold. What blessing could be more than being Glorified Personally by Messiah Yeshua ben-Yoseph of Nazareth?

\o/ Hashen be Praised \o/

 

[Ed Edwards]

From another Forum:

// Christ is coming and the Church will have tribulation, as the antichrist will make war with the saints.//

Amen, Christ is coming - twice, at least.
God has three Kingdoms.
The Lord has two sets of Saints:

1. elect saints Church from the Church Age, mostly Gentile (with some Messianic Jews)
2. Israel's Salvation elect saints from the Tribulation Judgment Period

two groups of elect
two different times
two groups of saints
two Churches
two different 'Kingdom of God'

The third 'Kingdom of God' is the Millennial Messianic Kingdom with three different groups:

1. unsaved temporal bodies of gentile kingdoms selected in the Sheep & Goats judgment to remain on Earth
2. saved temporal bodies of Jewish/Israeli (group #2 above)
3. saved eternal bodies of saints from the Church Age (age of the Gentiles) from group #1 in the list higher up

Reproduction status;
1. marry & have children
2. marry & have children
3. do not marry & do not have children

I get it from reading the Bible. any questions?

 

[TCGreek]

Sorry Ed, but I know of only one Kingdom.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Sorry about the miss-spelled words. My Mozilla Firefox attachment: Spell Check is crashing my browser. It shows me which words are spelled wrong, but it crashes me when I try to correct the spelling. I compose off-line in a spell-checkless .txt writer.

In another location this scripture is quoted (the quotee didn't bother to put which version they copy & pasted from, I copy & pasted it here) I copied it over here:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=55887&page=5

in post #41

Luke 17-26-30 (words of Christ in red)
26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
27 They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
29 But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
30 Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

Palatka51: // Jesus said that it would be as it was in Noah's day. How was it then?

Palatka51: // Noah was harassed then when the Ark was finished (the object of the grace of God's salvation) Noah was called into it. As soon as Noah was told to go in to it, God shut the door. No more refuge of grace and all flesh died in the earth under the wrath of God. Genesis, chapters 6-8. //

Uh, why do you have a diffenent answer than what Jesus said? Jesus clearly says in Luke 17:27 HOW IT WAS IN THE DAYS OF NOE. Look for the signs Jesus says, not the signs Palatka51 says. I say that the pre-tribualtion rapture2 is SIGNLESS, that is there is no signs. I beleive the fact that people are still eating, drinking, and marrying means that the Time of the Gentiles (Church age) still is going on. Here are the signs of the end of the Church Age (Time of the Gentiles, Age of Grace [strange name, I don't use it, salvation is by the Grace of God through Messiah Yeshua in all ages, generations, times] ): "They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage" -- I.E. things were going on AS USUAL - then POP the Judgement of God was upon them!

Palatka51: //In both cases few were removed before wrath was brought. //

Palatka51: // In the pre-trib scenario it is as if the whole world is taken in the rapture. When in actuality few will be. Not because many will be lost but that those, that did not fall away, have been killed for their faith in Christ. //

You are speaking of the post-trib rapture1 which follows right after the post-trib resurrection-1 and I call it the resurrection2. That is the 'pre-trib scenario. BTW, the WHOLE CHURCH (mostly gentile, age of the Gentiles, elect saved church) will be taken in in the pretribulation rapture2 (resurrection1 followed by a rapture1). So there will not only be a few hundred million raptured but a few hundred million resurrected as well.

Palatka51: //Remember Lot's wife? Many will fall away just as God is removing His Church from this world. How will this happen? Many will have been so trusting in a pre-trib rapture that they will feel as though Jesus has left them. Then in blind helplessness turn toward a false salvation in the Beast.

No pre-trib rapturist I've ever seen writing is going to 'feel as though Jesus has left them'. The surveys I've taken you can find a lot more people who believe OSAS (once sage - always saved) is a liscense to sin (Paul says our freedom in Christ is no liscense to sin). I don't know where you get "'many will fall away just as God is removing His Church from this world" Don't use the MVs on 2 Thessalonians 2:3 cause there the 'falling away' is when the Church Age Saints fall away from this old vail of tears right into the awaiting hands of Jesus.

Palatka51: //In both cases no one was saved after the saint was removed. //

Most pre-tribbers believe what you said: "no one was saved after the saint was removed". The Bible really is unclear about this. However the NOT SPECIFIED IN THE BIBLE belief of current Messanic Jews (the four that I know anyway) is that // when the last Gentile who is going to get saved, gets saved, then the Lord Jesus will come back //

Palatka51: //Pre-tribbers believe that there will be multitudes saved after the Church is removed. However the Word tells us that none will repent. //

This pre-tribber believes that there will be multitudes of JEWS saved (see Romans 11) - that is part of God's purpose for the Tribulation Judgement Period:

1. to punish & judge the lost Gentiles
2. to save the lost Jewish/Israli

I recommend brother that you use the phrase 'some pre-tribbers probably believe ... ' when present a strarwman that you know how to burn. Your average for being right would go way up (well, for 'what pre-tribbers believe', not for what you believe )

 

[Ed Edwards]

Me4Him, post #42 at:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1339478&posted=1#post1339478

You and I are pretty much in agreement, except for the following, if I'm reading you correct.

The third 'Kingdom of God' is the Millennial Messianic Kingdom with three different groups:

1. unsaved temporal bodies of gentile kingdoms selected in the Sheep & Goats judgment to remain on Earth
...

When Jesus returns to sit up the MK only the "LIVING" (wheat/tare) are judged/separated,

the "GOATS" stay dead and are not "resurrected" to stand Judgment until the GWT.

Only at the GWT are "GOATS" resurrected to stand in Judgment along with "SHEEP". (from the MK) (Sheep and Goat Judgment)

Amen, Brother -- Preach it! We are on the same page.

IMHO the judgment of the sheep nations and goat nations at the end of the Tribulation Judgment Period is on the basis of how each lost gentile NATION has treated God's chosen people - the National Jews (Israeli). The nations like Germany and Russian that slay millions of Jews will go to hell. Nations like the Dutch and Americans might fare better. There will be a chance for the lost Gentile Nations individuals to be saved in the Millennial Messanic Kingdom.

The Judgement of the sheep & goat nations will not be the same as the judgment of all the lost (and the MMK saved) at the GWT = Great White Throne Judgment.

I suggest if a person is lost and reads my post, that you not PLAN on getting into the Kingdom of God by going into the Tribulation, being among the 20% or less who survive first the wrath of the Antichrist then the Wrath of G-d hoping to get into MMK by being in a sheep nation. Way to many things can happen wrong there. Here is a sure thing, join up with the NOW Kingdom of God!

Mark 1:14-15 (KJV1611 Edition):
Now after that Iohn was put in prison, Iesus came into Galilee, preaching the Gospell of the kingdome of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdome of God is at hand: repent ye, and beleeue the Gospell.

And here is the Gospel (Good News):
John 3:16-17 (KJV1611 Edition):
For God so loued ye world, that he gaue his only begotten Sonne: that whosoeuer beleeueth in him, should not perish, but haue euerlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Sonne into the world to condemne the world: but that the world through him might be saued.

When you get saved (have everlasting life) you are in the Kingdom of God.

Note a difference between the forever Kingdom of God and the MMK Kingdom of God: one is eternal, one is for 1,000 years (could be a figure of speech for a long-long time).

 

[Me4Him]

Note a difference between the forever Kingdom of God and the MMK Kingdom of God: one is eternal, one is for 1,000 years (could be a figure of speech for a long-long time).

If you'll notice, there's a slight difference in Kingdom of "God/Heaven".

One is "spiritual" (Of God=within you) one is "literal/Physical", (of Heaven)

Like the "TRINTY", Spirit Father, (within you) Literal/physical Son, (of heaven) but both are "ONE".

Today, the Spiritual kingdom of God is within us, tomorrow, we will be in the literal/physical Kingdom of Heaven, but it's the same kingdom, as the "Trinity" is one.

And many prophecies have a "DUAL" application as well, the promise to "send Elijah" was "Spiritually" fulfilled in John the Bap, but the "literal/physical" Elijah will return as one of the two witnesses.

You'll find this Spiritual vs. literal throughout the scripture, Preterist see the spiritual and say it's over, the Church sees the literal/Physical and says it's still "future", few see "both sides" of the meanings.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Amen, Brother Me4Him - Preach it!

Can you see the difference in these sets?

set form: {name of set| list, of, elements, in, set}

{God| 1a- God the Father,
1b- God the Son,
1c- God the Holy Spirit}

{God| A1- God the Father,
A2- God the Son,
A3- God the Holy Spirit}

(clue: the difference in these two sets is NOT the elements but the numbering)

Me4Him: // Today, the Spiritual kingdom of God is within us, tomorrow, we will be in the literal/physical Kingdom of Heaven, but it's the same kingdom, as the "Trinity" is one. //

Here are two Kingdom's you talk about and two I'll talk about:
1. Church Age literal/spiritual Kingdom of God
2. (Church Age literal/physical Kingdom of God)
3. (Millennial Messianic Kingdom (MMK) Age literal/spiritual Kingdom of God)
4. MMK Age literal/physical Kingdom of God

These 'Kingdom of God' are different by Era (Age, Dispensation)
These 'Kingdom of God' are different by spiritual or physical

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Your life is running out while you play your false fiddle. Think of Nero! Rome is burning. To what good is this muddled speculations about imagined irrealities? If not you can understand the Bible like a child that is limited by his mental and experiential abilities, you have become wise beyong true wisdom. Jesus shall come again and all the dead shall be raised and all the living shall be changed - some to everlasting life; all the rest to everlasting damnation. So there's no pre-trib-this or post-trib-thats and all your nonsense about raptures and tribulations and rubbish. How can you spend - waste - a whole life-time on such things -- which in no manner whatsoever can be found in the Bible?
How can people be so intrigued by all this stuff of yours, Ed Edwards?

 

[Ed Edwards]

The immediate following post of mine can also be found at:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1343367&posted=1#post1343367

I am posting it here so it will be easier to understand my second following post. Yes, my Eschatology is Scriptural and Logical. I didn't just make it up myself for fun. Yes, I've been studying it on and off for the last 56 years as a Christian. The Bible says:

1 Corinthians 13:13 (HCSB = Christian Standard Bible /Holman, 2003/ ):

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Now these three remain: faith, hope, and love. But the greatest of these is love.[/FONT]

Why are 'faith' and 'hope' both listed? Are they not the same? They are both long lasting (and/or eternal).

Hebrews 1:1 (HCSB):

[FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Now faith is the reality of what is hoped for, the proof of what is not seen.

When said by Ed it comes out like this:
Faith is Hope with it's britches on; Hope is Faith without britches.
I have Faith that I'm Saved by the Lord and will stay saved (not because i'm faithful, but because my Lord is faithful).

Here are two things I hope. Both of them CANNOT happen (they are mutually exclusive) but I still hope both of them:

1. I hope that Jesus will come get me before the Tribulation Judgment Period on the Earth starts.

2. I hope I die* before [/FONT][FONT=Arial, Geneva, Helvetica]Jesus comes to get us before the Tribulation Judgment Period on the Earth starts[/FONT].
(* I have faith that if I die I shall Live again - Jesus said so in the Scripture)

And either way (or some other way I'm not aware of) - What the Lord does will satisfy me - for I am the slave & He is the Master & I will not to gripe about whatever He does.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Pretrib Rapture2: Scriptural Truth

Pretrib Rapture2: Scriptural Truth

Keeping Tribulations straight
​

Joh 16:33 (KJV1611 Edition):
These things I haue spoken vnto you,
that in me ye might haue peace, in the world
ye shall haue tribulation: but be of good cheare,
I haue ouercome the world.

Here is my essay from the early 1990s about
Tribulation:

---------------------------------
The Five Tribulations
of the Holy Bible
Contrasted and compared
by ed

The following terms are used in the Holy Bible to denote
tribulation: tribulation, distress, affliction, trouble

1. tribulation due to the human condition

​

WHO: all the sons and daughters of Adam & Eve
WHAT: heartaches, pains, troubles, distresses, disappointments,
affliction, trouble, ordeal, suffering, wretchedness,
misfortune, worry, care, hardship, agony,
anguish, torment, adversity, torture
travail of a woman giving birth, disease, cancer,
famine, plague, fatigue, depression, etc.
WHEN: From Adam's expulsion from the Garden of Eden
to the day a new heaven & new earth is created by
God, AKA: time as opposed to eternity
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: God only knows why, it is just the way things are,
maybe it has to do with the fall of man in the Garden of Eden?

2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom

​

WHO: those Christians chosen by the Holy Spirit for special honor
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, atheists, and
even people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: 33AD to the start of the millennial kingdom of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: many are called to follow Jesus;
few are chosen to the honor of the spiritual
gift of martyrdom

3. tribulation of the Jews
scattered among the Gentiles
​

WHO: dispersed among the goy
WHAT: persecution by non-Christians: Pagans, atheists, and
usually people who call themselves "Christian" but aren't
WHEN: during the time of the Gentiles
(from Mount Calvary to Mount Olivet)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Messiah Jesus

4. "The Tribulation period"
of those ruled by the Antichrist

​

(AKA: Wrath of the Lamb /Revelation 6:17/ )
WHO: citizens of the world
WHAT: a fate worse than death (Rev 6:15-17, Rev 9:6)
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (first half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

5. "The Great Tribulation period"
of those ruled by the Antrichrist

​

WHO: people who take the mark of the beast
WHAT: the wrath of God
WHEN: during the 70th week of Daniel (last half)
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: punishment for rejecting Lord Jesus

Note that #1, #2, and #3 are measured in travail units;
#4 and #5 are measured in time units.

Here are the names/descriptions of the Tribulation
Period found in the O.T.:

The tribulation in Deut 4:30
the day of Israel's calamity in Deut 32:35, Obadiah 1:12-14
the indignation in Isaiah 26:20, Daniel 11:36
the overflowing scourge in Isaiah 28:15,18
The Lord's strange work in Isaiah 28:21
The year of recompense in Isaiah 34:8
The day of vengeance in Isaiah 34:8, 35:4, 61:2
The time of Jacob's Trouble in Jeremiah 30:7
The day of darkness in Joel 2:2, Amos 5:18, 20; Zephaniah 1:15
See also Zephaniah 1:15-16.:
---------------------------------


These things were written in the early 1990s when I had immersed myself in the Spirit in the many scriptures about the Tribulations. If your spouse died recently you have Tribulation. If you every buried one of your children killed in one of the wars, police actions, peace-keeping actions, etc - you have Tribulation. If you have lost a child - you have Tribulation. if you have cancer - you have Tribulation. Etc. Etc.

in the world
ED shall haue tribulation:

But
The Lord is
BIGGER THAN Ed's TRIBULATION
​

 

[Ed Edwards]

Tribulations in the nKJV

"tribulations" in nKJV:

1Sa 10:19 (nKJV):
But you have today rejected your God, who Himself saved you from all your adversities and your tribulations; and you have said to Him, 'No, set a king over us!' Now therefore, present yourselves before the Lord by your tribes and by your clans."

3,000 years before the Tribulation Period, has to be:
1. tribulation due to the human condition

Ac 14:22 (nKJV):
strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, "We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God."

The Kingdom of God is with us, not all are persecuted,
must be the most likly:
1. tribulation due to the human condition

Ac 20:23 (nKJV):
except that the Holy Spirit testifies in every city, saying that chains and tribulations await me.

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

Ro 5:3 (nKJV):
And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance;

Most likely: Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition

2Co 6:4 (nKJV):
But in all things we commend ourselves as ministers of God: in much patience, in tribulations, in needs, in distresses,

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

Eph 3:13 (nKJV):
Therefore I ask that you do not lose heart at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.

Most likely: 1. tribulation due to the human condition

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

2Th 1:4 (nKJV):
so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that you endure,

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

Heb 10:33 (nKJV):
partly while you were made a spectacle both by reproaches and tribulations, and partly while you became companions of those who were so treated

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles


"tribulation" in nKJV:

1Sa 26:24 (nKJV):
And indeed, as your life was valued much this day in my eyes, so let my life be valued much in the eyes of the Lord, and let Him deliver me out of all tribulation."

1. tribulation due to the human condition
surley not 3,000+ years before futurists Trib Period
or 1,000+ years before before a-mill Trib Period

Mt 13:21 (nKJV):
yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles.

Could be any of the first three

Mt 24:9 (nKJV):
Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.

Got to be:
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
or 3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

Mt 24:21 (nKJV):
For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

This follows the AOD, it is: 5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist


Mt 24:29 (nKJV):
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

After 5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled
by the Antrichrist, the Lord will come in power
and glory to defeat the Antichrist.

Mr 4:17 (nKJV):
and they have no root in themselves, and so endure only for a time. Afterward, when tribulation or persecution arises for the word's sake, immediately they stumble.

Most likely: 2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom, which is persecution

Mr 13:19 (nKJV):
For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be.

This is a paralell Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD) passage
refering to: 5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist

Mr 13:24 (nKJV):
"But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light;

MOD, again: 5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist

Joh 16:33 (nKJV):
These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world."

One of these: 1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
but not: 4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist
5. "The Great Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antrichrist

Ro 2:9 (nKJV):
tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek;

Ro 5:3 (nKJV):
And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance;

Most likely, 1. tribulation due to the human condition, which happen to everybody

Ro 8:35 (nKJV):
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Could be any of the first three

Ro 12:12 (nKJV):
rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation, continuing steadfastly in prayer;

Most likely,m 1. tribulation due to the human condition, which happens to everybody

2Co 1:4 (nKJV):
who comforts us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort those who are in any trouble, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God.

Most likely is the most common: 1. tribulation due to the human condition

2Co 7:4 (nKJV):
Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my boasting on your behalf. I am filled with comfort. I am exceedingly joyful in all our tribulation.

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
Paul was NOT in the tribulation periods.

1Th 3:4 (nKJV):
For, in fact, we told you before when we were with you that we would suffer tribulation, just as it happened, and you know.

Paul suffered from the three conditions:
Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
Paul did not suffer from either of the two tribulation periods:



2Th 1:6 (nKJV):
since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you,

Why should God wait until the Tribulation Periods
to "repay"? Probably: 1. tribulation due to the human condition

Re 1:9 (nKJV):
I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles
Paul did not suffer from either of the two tribulation periods

Re 2:9 (nKJV):
I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan.

Could be any of the first three:
1. tribulation due to the human condition
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles


Re 2:10 (nKJV):
Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Indeed, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will have tribulation ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life.

Likely: Could be any of the first three:
2. tribulation of Christian Martyrdom
or 3. tribulation of the Jews scattered among the Gentiles

Re 2:22 (nKJV):
Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.

Likely 1. tribulation due to the human condition

Re 7:14 (nKJV):
And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

4. "The Tribulation period" of those ruled by the Antichrist.
These avoid great tribulation by being jerked out
of the world when Jesus comes to get His own.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Back over here:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1344309&posted=1#post1344309

is a discussion of what 'the first resurrection' means as used in Revelation 20

Following is one of my earlier writings. It is obviously an evangelistic message. People who are not pre-tribulation rapture of the Church folks are welcome to
--------------------------------------------------

\o/ Praise be to Hashem \o/

\o/ Praise be to Jesus \o/​

Five Resurrections:
Found in the Holy Bible Compared and Contrasted

(last revised 30 Nov 2008,
first written in Sept 1991 -
'Contract on America' was a
political item in the election of 1992)

The Lord God is a resurrecting God.

Definitions:

New Testament: God's contract on goy
Old Testament: God's contract on Yisrael
Rapture1: like a Resurrection1 only of a living person.
Resurrection1: a person who was dead is alive
Saint: a person on God's list (AKA: Book of Life)
Tribulation (Period): AKA: The Time of Jacob's Trouble (Jeremiah 30:4-7);
--Yisrael passing under the rod (Ezekiel 20:34-3;
--Melting Pot (Ezekiel 22:19-22);
--Time of Trouble (Daniel 12:1); etc.
goy - Yisraeli term for gentiles (probably slightly derogatory)
Yisrael - Transliteration of the Hebrew term for "Israel" into English.

How to get on God's list
[how resurrection #1 can get you
from #5 (Resurrection of the unjust)
to #3 (Resurrection of the just) ]:

Romans 10:9 (TNIV2006 = Today's New
International Version):

If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord,"
and believe in your heart that God raised
him from the dead, you will be saved.

407 years earlier:
Romans 10:9 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
For if thou shalt confesse with thy mouth the Lord Iesus,
and shalt beleeue in thine heart, that God raised him
vp from the dead, thou shalt be saued:


1. Resurrection of Jesus
WHO: Jesus
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal; because of the
resurrection of Jesus, all the other resurrections
are possible
References: Matthew 28:6, Mark 16:6, Luke 24:6-8


2. Resurrection of some Old Testament Saints
WHO: Some of those who died before Jesus believing God, especially
those who believed in God's Messiah
WHEN: 33AD
WHERE: mostly in Jerusalem
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal

3. Resurrection of the New Testament Saints (mostly Gentiles)
I define this as Rapture2 = the pre-tribulation resurrection1 + rapture1.
WHO: Church age (AKA: times of the Gentiles) Saints; balance
of the Old Testament Saints
WHEN: Some date after 31 Mar 2008;
at the end of the Church Age; at the beginning of
the Tribulation
WHERE: Worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal;
this resurrection is followed in but a
moment by the translation of the living
saints into a glorified heavenly body like
that of Jesus
References: 1 Corinthians 15:52, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

4. Resurrection of the Tribulation Saints (mostly Israeli)
I define this as Resurrection2 = the post-tribulation resurrection1 + rapture1
WHO: Those beheaded for faith in Jesus; those
who reject the Mark of the Beast
WHEN: at the end of the Tribulation; at the
beginning of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: The Lord God is a resurrecting God.
HOW: The Grace of God through Messiah Jesus
WHAT: Raised to Life Eternal
References: Revelation 20:4-6,

5. Resurrection of the non-Saints
WHO: All those throughout time who have rejected Jesus
WHEN: At the close of the 1,000-year reign of Jesus;
at the end of time
WHERE: worldwide
WHY: i don't know, God does
HOW: i don't know, God does
WHAT: Raised to eternal shame & damnation
References: Revelation 20:12-15

CAVEAT: The delineation of the five revealed
resurrections above
does not preclude other resurrections. The Lord God
is a resurrecting God and His hand is not shortened
by his revelation to us nor
by our understanding of His revelation to us.
For example: Two Witnesses shall
be resurrected in the middle of the Tribulation.

There is a pastoral picture (From the Scripture.
This is an example of how to let Scripture
interpret scripture). Note that the order:
First Fruits, Harvest, Gleanings, & Tares may
not be strictly specified in the Bible, but that
is how things are done in the real world.
Here is a pastoral picture of the four resurrections
for which the 1. Resurrection of Jesus was a precursor
(numbered here as above):

2. The First Fruits (Matthew 27:22-53)

3. The Harvest (1 Corinthians 15:51-54, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

4. The Gleanings (Revelation 7:14, 20:4)

5. The Tares (Matthew 13:28-30)

Sometimes the Holy Bible calls resurrections 2-4, the resurrections
of the just: The First Resurrection (because all the
resurrections of the just precede the resurrection
of the unjust /#5/ ).

The following scriptures seem to imply a simultaneous
resurrection of the just and the wicked dead:
Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29 (all resurrected
in the same hour), Acts 24:15. Revelation 20-4-6
clearly notes that the just are raised one day
(a 1,000 year long day) before the unjust.

CAUTION: The numbering scheme 1 to 5 above was arbitrarly
assigned to enable the discussion. There is nothing
sacred or Biblical about this numbering scheme.

May Jesus our Savior and our Master be Praised!

Note that at least resurrections #3 and #4 are accompanied
by a rapture of living saints.

--compilation by ed, incurable Jesus Phreaque

 

[Ed Edwards]

From post #35 here:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=44751&page=4

------------------------------------------------------------
Here is the comentary of John Nelson Darby
on Matthew 24:

//The Lord's discourse is divided into
three parts:
-- 1. The general condition of the disciples and
of the world during the time of the testimony,
to the end of Mat_24:14;
--2. The period marked out by the fact that
the abomination of desolation stands
in the holy place (Mat_24:15);
-- 3. The Lord's coming and the gathering together
of the elect in Israel (Mat_24:29).//

In other words, post-tribs only folk
frequently claim that John Nelson
Darby invented pretrib rapture2 in 1820;
new age dispensationalism, and other
stuff. But he doesn't even thing,
as I do, that Matthew 24:31 is
the pretribualtion rapture2.

How about that, I've got one more
pretribulation rapture scripture
than even Darby could find

Of course, I was alive in 1964, the first
year mankind could do all the bad things that
people though only God could do to bring
His Wrath upon the unjust (AKA: Tribulation
"on the antichrist's people" Time Period).
Of course, the antichrist can't fake something
that only Messiah Jesus can pull of:
the pretribulation rapture2 of the Church Age
born-again, redeemed, elect saints!
AMEN & PRAISE THE LORD!!!