Three Reasons Why I'm Not A Good Calvinist:

[TCGreek]

TC,

I posited this on another thread but wanted to pass it by you. I was comparing the Calvinist notion of salvation to the experience of a dog who is taken home by a new master from the animal shelter. Surely this is the same paradigm as Calvinist salvation, no?

1) The dog doesn't choose the master -- the master chooses the dog.

2) It's likely that, at the shelter, all dogs look pretty much alike and the same lack of information cannot influence the prospective owner as to the "merits" of one over another.

3) The dog is "irresistibly drawn" into the relationship. And he doesn't understand how his new master picked him.

4) The dog relies on his master for everything -- "It is all of my master," it thinks. I provide nothing to this relationship except great "tail wags" (worship).

5) Well, I can also do what I am trained to do and can be held responsible to do so "on cue" (LS, discipleship).

6) It's truly a "dog's life!" I wish others could join me here but it would do no good to convince other dogs what a great life I have if my master hasn't "picked" them. Oh, well.

Break it down for me, TC. Do you see any difference between Calvinism's sotierology and a dog's?

skypair

Your assumptions about Calvinism are wrong in this analogy. Salvation is from the Lord.

 

[skypair]

This has nothing to do with an analogy with a dog.It deals with Israel.

From Ezekiel 16:4-6 :On the day you were born your cord was not cut,nor were you washed with water to make you clean,nor were you rubbed with salt or wrapped in cloths.No one looked on you with pity or had compassion enough to do any of these things for you.Rather,you were thrown out into the open field,for on the day you were born you were despised.Then I passed by and saw you kicking about in your blood, and as you lay there in your blood,I said to you,"Live!"

Read the rest of the chapter for context.It was unilateral on the Lord's part.

Good man, rip!! And how often have we said that Calvies believe they are "saved" in the same way as Israel was "elected?" And it bears a strong resemblance to a trip to the animal shelter for a dog!

And are you saying that is what salvation is like?

For a soul, a dog has instincts. He doesn't know God. He only learns what "master" means when he is taken home (saved, so to speak).

A dog doesn't understand why its master makes it do tricks or herd sheep or whatnot. Same way as a Calvinist on the mission field, right? Calvies don't go to the mission field to reach those God can't effectually save so guess what? So Calvies say, "We go cause God commands us to," or " We go cause that's the way God has chosen to do things." Sounds like a "master-dog" relationship to me.

There's a ton of other things neither dogs nor Calvies seem to know. Neither knows about its soul -- neither knows how evil entered into the world -- neither knows how its (M)aster chose it -- neither knows what The Revelation of Jesus Christ (by John) means -- both have incomprehensible vocabularies (try explaining a parent's "total depravity" to a parent who is doing everything possible to raise their child right) -- (the only limit to this list is the time I want to spend on this post). :tear:

I know -- you'll say I'm "teeing off" on Calvies. Believers are, after all, "sheep." But that's only in parables, friend. My observations seem quite literally to apply. And I suppose there are those that happily know nothing, love to be petted and fed and sheltered, and who "wag their tails" furiously whenever they hear their master's name.

skypair

 

[skypair]

Your assumptions about Calvinism are wrong in this analogy. Salvation is from the Lord.

I had hoped to engage you on a point-by-point basis. What points are not comparable? Even a dog eventually turns to/repents to and obeys his master who chose him, right?

I gave another list to rip. You may want to look at that one as well. I believe the point to be made is that because man is not made like a dog spiritually, man's choosing is not monergistic as is the case with dogs. IOW, I don't think I misunderstand Cavlinism nearly to the extent that Calvinism misunderstands the human spirit. And that is why I use the illustration of a dog. Calvinism appears to constitute man's nature and God's redemption of him as if man were a beast.

skypair

 

[Allan]

I had hoped to engage you on a point-by-point basis. What points are not comparable? Even a dog eventually turns to/repents to and obeys his master who chose him, right?

I gave another list to rip. You may want to look at that one as well. I believe the point to be made is that because man is not made like a dog spiritually, man's choosing is not monergistic as is the case with dogs. IOW, I don't think I misunderstand Cavlinism nearly to the extent that Calvinism misunderstands the human spirit. And that is why I use the illustration of a dog. Calvinism appears to constitute man's nature and God's redemption of him as if man were a beast.

skypair

It might be better Sky if you made another thread about it so as not to derail TCGreek's.

 

[skypair]

It might be better Sky if you made another thread about it so as not to derail TCGreek's.

Good idea. I was going to "collect my thoughts" here and "bounce them off" TC but apparently he is not inclined to a "bottom of the thread" airing of his opinions.

skypair

 

[TCGreek]

I had hoped to engage you on a point-by-point basis. What points are not comparable? Even a dog eventually turns to/repents to and obeys his master who chose him, right?

I gave another list to rip. You may want to look at that one as well. I believe the point to be made is that because man is not made like a dog spiritually, man's choosing is not monergistic as is the case with dogs. IOW, I don't think I misunderstand Cavlinism nearly to the extent that Calvinism misunderstands the human spirit. And that is why I use the illustration of a dog. Calvinism appears to constitute man's nature and God's redemption of him as if man were a beast.

skypair

Skypair, I believe in 100% of God's sovereignty and 100% of humanity's agency.

The fall rendered mankind unable to come to God on his own. Mankind must first have his eyes and heart open and be drawn to God for salvation through faith in Christ (John 6:65; Acts 16:14).

 

[TCGreek]

Good idea. I was going to "collect my thoughts" here and "bounce them off" TC but apparently he is not inclined to a "bottom of the thread" airing of his opinions.

skypair

Not at all! Let's roll!