Three types of people?

[supersoldier71]

if the veiling is permanent and the understanding of spiritual things never able to be known. God made or keeps them that way, There is a third type of person, like the animals .

No, you are creating a functional distinction where none exists.

Consider Luke 12:48 ESV
"But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more."

There may be a great many paths that lead to condemnation, or put another way, every path that does not lead through Christ leads to damnation. Christ is plainly the only means to salvation.

John 14:6 ESV
"Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'"

So to anyone who is lost and did not hear the Gospel, that person will receive a "light beating", while a lost person who heard and did not believe will receive a more severe one. I expect that a person who "fell away" or worst of all, caused others to fall away, will receive a most severe beating indeed.

For eternity.

 

[loDebar]

No, you are creating a functional distinction where none exists.

Consider Luke 12:48 ESV
"But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more."

There may be a great many paths that lead to condemnation, or put another way, every path that does not lead through Christ leads to damnation. Christ is plainly the only means to salvation.

John 14:6 ESV
"Jesus said to him, 'I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.'"

So to anyone who is lost and did not hear the Gospel, that person will receive a "light beating", while a lost person who heard and did not believe will receive a more severe one. I expect that a person who "fell away" or worst of all, caused others to fall away, will receive a most severe beating indeed.

For eternity.

We are condemned already , no path


you mean my Cherokee ancestors from the BC who God put there and were not given a chance to know Jesus get a "light beating"?

I believe the verses focus on those who have not rejected God but cannot know God or spiritual things at all , even to reject him

 

[supersoldier71]

We are condemned already , no path


you mean my Cherokee ancestors from the BC who God put there and were not given a chance to know Jesus get a "light beating"?

I believe the verses focus on those who have not rejected God but cannot know God or spiritual things at all , even to reject him

If you read the entire passage you'll see that people who are unaware of the Gospel is precisely what is being addressed.

There is no Scriptural basis for assuming that people--your NA ancestors or mine in Africa--had any means of salvation apart from Christ.

Otherwise, there is no reason to evangelize. If one is granted access to Heaven merely through ignorance, preaching the Good News of Christ is actually condemnation to most who hear it, whereas otherwise, they would have been granted "automatic" entrance to Heaven.

That fails Scripturally and logically.

You've already agreed, at least intellectually that all are lost, that is, all of us deserve a "beating". That God chooses to have mercy on some, and in fact chooses to whom His mercy will be given is also evident in Scripture.

Romans 9:15 ESV
For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

The objects of God's mercy are for Him and Him alone to determine.

 

[Darrell C]

There is no Scriptural basis for assuming that people--your NA ancestors or mine in Africa--had any means of salvation apart from Christ.

There is, actually:


Romans 2:12-16
King James Version (KJV)

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.


The Gentiles in view here are no different than the NA or African ancestors who, if they were obedient to the Law of God revealed to their hearts, will stand in judgment before Christ. They would have been justified based on their obedience in the identical manner Abraham was. This is why we can find remote peoples and still see principles of the Law of God despite their ever hearing the first Word.

What we have to distinguish in regards to Christ is that no man will be eternally redeemed through the works of the Law. The Old Testament Saints were not (not even Abraham):


Hebrews 9:12-15
King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


Hebrews 11 makes it clear that the Old Testament Saints died...not receiving the Promises. We do.

So just as the Gentiles in view here received revelation from God that could justify them (the doers of the Law are justified), we don't equate that, or the justification of the Old Testament Saint...

...to Eternal Redemption, or the Justification which is through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus.

We have to interpret Romans 4 based on what Paul teaches in Romans 3:


Romans 3:20-25
King James Version (KJV)

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;


Abraham was justified, but, he died still owing a sin debt, and had not yet been reconciled to God. As we see in Hebrews 9:15 and Romans 3:25, their sins were redeemed through the Sacrifice of Christ. It is Christ's righteousness being declared at this time. All others fit within the framework of the Old Testament's temporal quality.

So in an Old Testament sense, both of your ancestors would have been technically saved, that is, in the eternal perspective, if they were obedient to the revelation provided them. But just as we are not saved until we turn to Christ (we do not view God's foreknowledge as bestowing that title prior to our conversion), even so the just Saint of the Old Testament was not "saved" in the eternal sense.



God bless.

 

[supersoldier71]

There is, actually:


Romans 2:12-16
King James Version (KJV)

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.


The Gentiles in view here are no different than the NA or African ancestors who, if they were obedient to the Law of God revealed to their hearts, will stand in judgment before Christ. They would have been justified based on their obedience in the identical manner Abraham was. This is why we can find remote peoples and still see principles of the Law of God despite their ever hearing the first Word.

What we have to distinguish in regards to Christ is that no man will be eternally redeemed through the works of the Law. The Old Testament Saints were not (not even Abraham):


Hebrews 9:12-15
King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


Hebrews 11 makes it clear that the Old Testament Saints died...not receiving the Promises. We do.

So just as the Gentiles in view here received revelation from God that could justify them (the doers of the Law are justified), we don't equate that, or the justification of the Old Testament Saint...

...to Eternal Redemption, or the Justification which is through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus.

We have to interpret Romans 4 based on what Paul teaches in Romans 3:


Romans 3:20-25
King James Version (KJV)

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;


Abraham was justified, but, he died still owing a sin debt, and had not yet been reconciled to God. As we see in Hebrews 9:15 and Romans 3:25, their sins were redeemed through the Sacrifice of Christ. It is Christ's righteousness being declared at this time. All others fit within the framework of the Old Testament's temporal quality.

So in an Old Testament sense, both of your ancestors would have been technically saved, that is, in the eternal perspective, if they were obedient to the revelation provided them. But just as we are not saved until we turn to Christ (we do not view God's foreknowledge as bestowing that title prior to our conversion), even so the just Saint of the Old Testament was not "saved" in the eternal sense.



God bless.

Yeah, I don't read that that way because the logical implication is that the OP is correct, there is more than one way to eternal salvation, and then there are at least two differently saved people of God.

Further, if I were to encounter a "good person" and I share the Gospel with them and they reject it, I have essentially shut them out of Heaven.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Mr. Davis]

We know we categorize people as the saved and lost. I suggest it might be more correct to have the natural and spiritual as two categories with the spiritual having two sub groups as saved and lost. We know the saved or redeemed. We know the lost must have an understanding of spiritual in order to reject salvation which the natural man does not have.


1Co 2:14

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


Perhaps the natural man is without a soul

Any response?

Right on, loDebar! (But ALL men have souls.)

Natural-unsaved; Spiritual-conditionally saved and Spiritual-saved called from Eternity Past!


In fact, Augustine made the same Trichotomy that I have.


BIG CAVEAT:


The Conditionally-saved are those who profess (not confessors of) salvation. As I mentioned in my thread, "TWO Raptures for Believers?" There are the Christian Holy (to be raptured) and the Christian Unholy (to go through the Tribulation). Why would only the Christian Holy be Raptured--and the Christian Unholy go through the Trib, when some scholars say that no one in the Church will go through the Tribulation?


According to Christ, only "the pure in heart will see God." And, the writer of Hebrews says that, "without holiness no one will see the Lord."


A plethora of Scriptures from the OT and NT can be cited to show that holiness is essential for the first-class Christians to see God (Christ) at the rapture.


That, in fact, there are two-classes of Christians, (full of the Spirit and less filled) has been pointed out by some scholars, for many years. (Especially R.T. Kendall, Once Saved always Saved, (1983), Chp 10 “The Strong, The Weak, and the Carnal Christian; the Professors and the Lost,” pp.114-126. Also: Charles Hodge, Systematic Theology, v3, "Soteriology," Hendrickson, (2nd printing, 2001).


But the Conditional ones may have been in the Church for many years, and, ultimately must come to saving faith like the Eternally-called ones all do--by submitting to His outward Call. Remember, that "many are called, but few are chosen."

 

[loDebar]

Right on, loDebar! (But ALL men have souls.)

Natural-unsaved; Spiritual-conditionally saved and Spiritual-saved called from Eternity Past!


In fact, Augustine made the same Trichotomy that I have.


BIG CAVEAT:


The Conditionally-saved are those who profess (not confessors of) salvation. As I mentioned in my thread, "TWO Raptures for Believers?" There are the Christian Holy (to be raptured) and the Christian Unholy (to go through the Tribulation). Why would only the Christian Holy be Raptured--and the Christian Unholy go through the Trib, when some scholars say that no one in the Church will go through the Tribulation?


According to Christ, only "the pure in heart will see God." And, the writer of Hebrews says that, "without holiness no one will see the Lord."


A plethora of Scriptures from the OT and NT can be cited to show that holiness is essential for the first-class Christians to see God (Christ) at the rapture.


That, in fact, there are two-classes of Christians, (full of the Spirit and less filled) has been pointed out by some scholars, for many years. (Especially R.T. Kendall, Once Saved always Saved, (1983), Chp 10 “The Strong, The Weak, and the Carnal Christian; the Professors and the Lost,” pp.114-126. Also: Charles Hodge, Systematic Theology, v3, "Soteriology," Hendrickson, (2nd printing, 2001).


But the Conditional ones may have been in the Church for many years, and, ultimately must come to saving faith like the Eternally-called ones all do--by submitting to His Call. Remember, that "many are called, but few are chosen."



But the Conditional ones may have been in the Church for many years, and, ultimately must come to saving faith like the Eternally-called ones all do--by submitting to His outward Call. Remember, that "many are called, but few are chosen."

I cannot find a verse that says all men have souls, do you know of one?

 

[Mr. Davis]

I cannot find a verse that says all men have souls, do you know of one?

"Souls" appears about out 80 times in the Scriptures.

The word "Soul" are too many to count!

Nearly all of these instances refer to people.

I used Strong's Exhaustive Concordance. There should be some concordances online.

Usually, I'm a little condescending and tell people to do their homework.

Here are a couple of verses:

"Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine:
the soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ezekiel 18:4, Ezekiel 18:20.

Comments.

The "soul" is the person; his personality and spiritual attributes, like his conscience.
His body can suffer and also die. But after death, he continues to exist, with all of
his faculties. If he responds to the wooing of the Holy Spirit while he is alive in the body,
the Holy Spirit will have confirmed his Calling from Eternity past by gifting him with
the ability to repent of his former way of life. The soul never dies. He will inhabit either
heaven or hell. Translations other than the KJV often render "soul" as man, because
men are all destined to die.


The "spirit" is the life-energy we were given by God in order for our bodies to live. It is called,
"neshamah" in Hebrew (Strong's 5397). Strong's (7307) is even more definitive; both are found
early in Genesis. You'll find in Strong's Greek dictionary a similar definition.

When we die, our spirit returns to God. He has promised to resurrect us; we will have new energy and new bodies in which this energy from Him will dwell and make us vital in a way we never experienced on earth.

 

[loDebar]

well, I am familiar with the use of soul and spirit in the OT and NT scripture.

Is there a verse that says every human in history is/has a soul?

 

[TCassidy]

I cannot find a verse that says all men have souls, do you know of one?

So you know people who have no will, intellect, or emotions?

 

[Iconoclast]

Mr. Davis,

[QUOTE]That, in fact, there are two-classes of Christians, (full of the Spirit and less filled) has been pointed out by some scholars, for many years. (Especially R.T. Kendall, Once Saved always Saved, (1983), Chp 10 “The Strong, The Weak, and the Carnal Christian; the Professors and the Lost,” pp.114-126. Also: Charles Hodge, Systematic Theology, v3, "Soteriology," Hendrickson, (2nd printing, 2001).

[/QUOTE]
No...there is only one kind of Christian...

 

[Mr. Davis]

Mr. Davis,

[QUOTE]That, in fact, there are two-classes of Christians, (full of the Spirit and less filled) has been pointed out by some scholars, for many years. (Especially R.T. Kendall, Once Saved always Saved, (1983), Chp 10 “The Strong, The Weak, and the Carnal Christian; the Professors and the Lost,” pp.114-126. Also: Charles Hodge, Systematic Theology, v3, "Soteriology," Hendrickson, (2nd printing, 2001).

No...there is only one kind of Christian...[/QUOTE]
Please elaborate.

I know there are only saved people and unsaved people.

Do you believe God might have ordained that people who pray the sinner's prayer might be saved?

Do you believe a Christan's bad behavior in anyway affects his salvation?

Please, brother, I have read many of your posts and agreed with nearly all of them.
Open your heart to me.

Bro Davis

 

[Iconoclast]

No...there is only one kind of Christian...

Please elaborate.

I know there are only saved people and unsaved people.

Do you believe God might have ordained that people who pray the sinner's prayer might be saved?

Do you believe a Christan's bad behavior in anyway affects his salvation?

Please, brother, I have read many of your posts and agreed with nearly all of them.
Open your heart to me.

Bro Davis[/QUOTE]
Hello Mr. Davis,

romans 8 describes two persons....those under the dominion of the Spirit,those under dominion of the flesh...one is a believer the other a non believer devoid of the Spirit

The Carnal Christian Doctrine #1

The Carnal Christian Doctrine #2

 

[loDebar]

So you know people who have no will, intellect, or emotions?

it is the problem you use a difference word for spiritual things?, I have run into this before. not psyche. They function with will , intellect and emotions , but they have no comprehension of spiritual things.

I think we both know people with a spirit but have no interest in things of God or even a conscience, no pneuma

I have been told , as you might be implying, that the soul is will intellect, emotions, etc but that is wrong,
We would agree that an animal has will, intellect and emotions etc. or psyche but not not able to comprehend things of God, right or wrong, etc. No pneuma or soul. no conscience, no reaction to any spiritual aspects. When you or I might consider the sunset as beautiful or of God of , they cannot.

 

[loDebar]

If you read the entire passage you'll see that people who are unaware of the Gospel is precisely what is being addressed.

There is no Scriptural basis for assuming that people--your NA ancestors or mine in Africa--had any means of salvation apart from Christ.

Otherwise, there is no reason to evangelize. If one is granted access to Heaven merely through ignorance, preaching the Good News of Christ is actually condemnation to most who hear it, whereas otherwise, they would have been granted "automatic" entrance to Heaven.

That fails Scripturally and logically.

You've already agreed, at least intellectually that all are lost, that is, all of us deserve a "beating". That God chooses to have mercy on some, and in fact chooses to whom His mercy will be given is also evident in Scripture.

Romans 9:15 ESV
For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

The objects of God's mercy are for Him and Him alone to determine.

We are all condemned already, death row

no, if there is another way of salvation Christ was not needed

 

[Darrell C]

Sorry, not sure how I missed this.

Yeah, I don't read that that way because the logical implication is that the OP is correct,

You are welcome to show why my points are in error.

Secondly, in no way does this show there are three types of people.

The bottom line is Eternal Redemption is only through the Cross of Christ, that is how men are reconciled to God. However, we know men were not being eternally redeemed under the Law or in Ages prior to the Law, yet we see Gentiles who have the Law written on their hearts, perform the works of the Law, and by that are justified no differently than those who had the Law who kept it, and men like Abel, Enoch, Noah, and Abraham were justified.

And neither of them (Jew or Gentile, or those prior to the Law before this distinction was made) were Eternally Redeemed. They were justified based on their obedience to the revelation given them.

So still only two types throughout History, just and unjust, saved (from an eternal perspective by God's grace) and unsaved.

there is more than one way to eternal salvation,

No, there is only one way for one to be eternally redeemed, and obtain eternal life through union with God. That is through faith in the Risen Savior. And not one man was in Christ prior to the Lord building His Church, which is based on the confession of Christ.

If you look at this...


John 14:15-18
King James Version (KJV)

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.


...and this...


John 14:22-23
King James Version (KJV)

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


...and this...


John 7:38-39
King James Version (KJV)

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)


...and this, lol...


Acts 1:4-5
King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


...you will see that they were not yet eternally indwelt by God.

That is how the Old Testament Saints died. Their last offering for sin would have been that of an animal, and unless w want to equate the atonement and remission of sins from those with that we receive through Christ's Offering of Himself (and Scripture does not do that, but contrasts the two over and over), then we have to understand that their eternal redemption was postmortem.

No reason to see God refraining from bestowing the same grace to infants murdered in the womb, young children, and the mentally impaired, who never receive the chance to receive revelation of God's will.

and then there are at least two differently saved people of God.

No. As long as you understand that being "saved" in the Old Testament did not nullify the need for the Just to be eternally redeemed through Christ. They did not go to be with God in Heaven, they had to await Christ dying in their stead, and their sins were retroactively atoned for, and they were liberated from Hades. The unjust remain there to this day.

That is taught specifically in two places:


Hebrews 9:12-15
King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


Hebrews 11 makes it clear that the Old Testament Saints died in faith, yet were not made perfect/complete, and did not receive the promises of God. Those promises were fulfilled only in Christ, and that is the only way they are ever fulfilled. We see in v.12 that Christ's death (blood, a euphemism for death) was the means for eternal redemption. We see in v.15 that Christ's Death was the means of redemption for the transgressions under the Law (as well as those prior to the Covenant of Law, which we will see in a short: this Book is specific to the Hebrew People, hence only the Two Covenant are mentioned, the Covenant of Law, and the New Covenant).

The second place retroactive remission of sins is seen is here:


Romans 3:20-26
King James Version (KJV)

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


The point being that he is making a distinction between a man being declared just through obedinece, as we see in the case of Abraham and the Gentiles of Romans 2, and being freely, by God's grace...justified through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus.

Sure, Abraham believed God would give him a son, and that all families of the earth would be blessed through him, but...he was not privy to the Mystery of the GOspel of Jesus Christ. If any man were (and Scripture teaches plainly no man was), then it could not be a Mystery.

Further, if I were to encounter a "good person" and I share the Gospel with them and they reject it, I have essentially shut them out of Heaven.

On the contrary, you preaching the Gospel to someone doesn't necessarily mean that the Holy Spirit is ministering to him/her as well.

That is how men and women are saved, when the Comforter convicts them of sin (that they are sinners), righteousness (that they are not, and only Christ is), and judgment (that they are under condemnation and destined for Eternal Separation).

That same person you preach to could, five years later, be saved listening to Back to the Bible or watching a David Jeremiah sermon. The Spirit need only impress the truth of the Gospel on their hearts, and they need only not rebel, which is their nature (to rebel against God).

That the Comforter ministers to the lost is seen here:



John 16:7-9
King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;


God bless.

 

[loDebar]

It is like you cannot understand this verse

1Co 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

If a natural man cannot know spiritual things. how can the Holy Spirit convict him?

 

[supersoldier71]

Sorry, not sure how I missed this.




You are welcome to show why my points are in error.

Secondly, in no way does this show there are three types of people.

The bottom line is Eternal Redemption is only through the Cross of Christ, that is how men are reconciled to God. However, we know men were not being eternally redeemed under the Law or in Ages prior to the Law, yet we see Gentiles who have the Law written on their hearts, perform the works of the Law, and by that are justified no differently than those who had the Law who kept it, and men like Abel, Enoch, Noah, and Abraham were justified.

And neither of them (Jew or Gentile, or those prior to the Law before this distinction was made) were Eternally Redeemed. They were justified based on their obedience to the revelation given them.

So still only two types throughout History, just and unjust, saved (from an eternal perspective by God's grace) and unsaved.




No, there is only one way for one to be eternally redeemed, and obtain eternal life through union with God. That is through faith in the Risen Savior. And not one man was in Christ prior to the Lord building His Church, which is based on the confession of Christ.

If you look at this...


John 14:15-18
King James Version (KJV)

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.


...and this...


John 14:22-23
King James Version (KJV)

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


...and this...


John 7:38-39
King James Version (KJV)

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)


...and this, lol...


Acts 1:4-5
King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


...you will see that they were not yet eternally indwelt by God.

That is how the Old Testament Saints died. Their last offering for sin would have been that of an animal, and unless w want to equate the atonement and remission of sins from those with that we receive through Christ's Offering of Himself (and Scripture does not do that, but contrasts the two over and over), then we have to understand that their eternal redemption was postmortem.

No reason to see God refraining from bestowing the same grace to infants murdered in the womb, young children, and the mentally impaired, who never receive the chance to receive revelation of God's will.




No. As long as you understand that being "saved" in the Old Testament did not nullify the need for the Just to be eternally redeemed through Christ. They did not go to be with God in Heaven, they had to await Christ dying in their stead, and their sins were retroactively atoned for, and they were liberated from Hades. The unjust remain there to this day.

That is taught specifically in two places:


Hebrews 9:12-15
King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


Hebrews 11 makes it clear that the Old Testament Saints died in faith, yet were not made perfect/complete, and did not receive the promises of God. Those promises were fulfilled only in Christ, and that is the only way they are ever fulfilled. We see in v.12 that Christ's death (blood, a euphemism for death) was the means for eternal redemption. We see in v.15 that Christ's Death was the means of redemption for the transgressions under the Law (as well as those prior to the Covenant of Law, which we will see in a short: this Book is specific to the Hebrew People, hence only the Two Covenant are mentioned, the Covenant of Law, and the New Covenant).

The second place retroactive remission of sins is seen is here:


Romans 3:20-26
King James Version (KJV)

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


The point being that he is making a distinction between a man being declared just through obedinece, as we see in the case of Abraham and the Gentiles of Romans 2, and being freely, by God's grace...justified through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus.

Sure, Abraham believed God would give him a son, and that all families of the earth would be blessed through him, but...he was not privy to the Mystery of the GOspel of Jesus Christ. If any man were (and Scripture teaches plainly no man was), then it could not be a Mystery.




On the contrary, you preaching the Gospel to someone doesn't necessarily mean that the Holy Spirit is ministering to him/her as well.

That is how men and women are saved, when the Comforter convicts them of sin (that they are sinners), righteousness (that they are not, and only Christ is), and judgment (that they are under condemnation and destined for Eternal Separation).

That same person you preach to could, five years later, be saved listening to Back to the Bible or watching a David Jeremiah sermon. The Spirit need only impress the truth of the Gospel on their hearts, and they need only not rebel, which is their nature (to rebel against God).

That the Comforter ministers to the lost is seen here:



John 16:7-9
King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;


God bless.

TL;DR: Cool.


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[loDebar]

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[Mr. Davis]

Please elaborate.

I know there are only saved people and unsaved people.

Do you believe God might have ordained that people who pray the sinner's prayer might be saved?

Do you believe a Christan's bad behavior in anyway affects his salvation?

Please, brother, I have read many of your posts and agreed with nearly all of them.
Open your heart to me.

Bro Davis

Hello Mr. Davis,

romans 8 describes two persons....those under the dominion of the Spirit,those under dominion of the flesh...one is a believer the other a non believer devoid of the Spirit

The Carnal Christian Doctrine #1

The Carnal Christian Doctrine #2[/QUOTE]
You really should read Kendall and Hodge. I'll be praying that Christ will illuminate your narrow mind. And, that the Holy Spirit would convict you of your arrogance. I'll be praying, too, that, by His Grace, you'll experience His gift of Peace.