Thumbs up or thumbs down...and WHY?

[Iconoclast]

In another thread DHK offered this misguided thought.....support or be critical of these ideas he expressed......using scripture in your response;

Why serve an imaginary God?
God himself states that He cannot be comprehended. His thoughts are beyond our thoughts. A finite man cannot understand an infinite God.

And yet this confession is arrogant enough to say "I understand," "I know."
It then proceeds to list the "decrees" of God which God Himself never told these uninspired writers. How do they presume to know the mind of God--the decrees of God? This is the height of arrogance.

Let's look at an example:
We all remember when the WTC was bombed.
God knew it would happen. Therefore it was "decreed by God."
The Muslim says the same thing. It happened. Que sera sera. Therefore it was Allah's will. This is their doctrine of fatalism, essential to their faith.
RE: the WTC, they rejoiced while America mourned.

But this hard determinism of the Calvinist is nothing more than the fatalism of the Muslim. The doctrine is the same. Que sera, sera.

I will respond in detail later, but for now I must go through Indy, Mo, and get Into Kansas...so it is up to you fine BB members to respond using the usual courtesy we see everyday:thumbs:

 

[BobRyan]

Calvinism blurs the line between allow and ordain - to such an extent that DHk's charge has merit. As R.C. Sproul pointed out - calvinism imagines that because God is sovereign in an odd calvinist sort of spin of the term - then nothing happens that God has not ordained.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Iconoclast]

Calvinism blurs the line between allow and ordain - to such an extent that DHk's charge has merit. As R.C. Sproul pointed out - calvinism imagines that because God is sovereign in an odd calvinist sort of spin of the term - then nothing happens that God has not ordained.

in Christ,

Bob

Bob, Could you show scripturally anything that happens outside of God's control?

 

[Revmitchell]

Bob, Could you show scripturally anything that happens outside of God's control?

Do you believe that in order for God to be in control God has to ordain it?

 

[Iconoclast]

Do you believe that in order for God to be in control God has to ordain it?

Hello RM,



God is in control off all things. What I believe can be shown by considering JOB1-2.....

To people observing they see Job and his family under attack. If we did not have the behind the scenes dialog of satan being the accuser...and God setting boundaries upon satan...we would not know what really happened.
God allowed severe testing to be inflicted on JOB....God did not cause the evil that satan inflicted, and yet God had ordained that it would happen.

Even the evil acts of evil men are ordained to come to pass....but God does not cause them.

The cross is the greatest example of this;

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain he judges righteously and no sin will go unpunished.


25 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?

26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.

27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

God is able to keep us from evil, or allow evil to come at us . Why He does as He does His part of His Immutable plan.

I believe nothing can take place that God has not ordained to happen.
There is no mistake ,accident, or coincidence......just God's predetermined plan and purpose providently being unfolded in time.

 

[Winman]

Well, God makes several statements in the Bible where he said he did not command things that happened.

Hos 8:1 Set the trumpet to thy mouth. He shall come as an eagle against the house of the LORD, because they have transgressed my covenant, and trespassed against my law.
2 Israel shall cry unto me, My God, we know thee.
3 Israel hath cast off the thing that is good: the enemy shall pursue him.
4 They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not: of their silver and their gold have they made them idols, that they may be cut off.

God says Israel set up kings, but not by him, they made princes, but he knew it not.

What can you say? Is God a liar?

Isa 54:15 Behold, they shall surely gather together, but not by me: whosoever shall gather together against thee shall fall for thy sake.

This is a future prediction, but again God says these nations shall gather together against Israel, but not by him. God surely knows what they will do, and he allows it, but it is all their idea. God says they shall fall, so he is in charge and can defeat these nations that come against Israel.

Jer 7:31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart.

Jer 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

Three times in Jeremiah God speaks of Israel sacrificing their children to idols, and says he did not command it, nor spake it, neither did it come into his mind or heart.

So how could God ordain something that never came into his mind or heart? How could he ordain something he never commanded?

So obviously God is allowing men a certain amount of freedom to act on their own.

That doesn't mean God is not in control, he could strike these persons dead at any moment he chooses.

 

[Iconoclast]

Winman;

What can you say? Is God a liar?
So how could God ordain something that never came into his mind or heart? How could he ordain something he never commanded?

So obviously God is allowing men a certain amount of freedom to act on their own.

Bosley said it right earlier....there are two issues....you cannot read with understanding...you are irrational....many have answered, you cannot welcome help. You will just repeat your errors post after post, and disrupt thread after thread, day after day...but that is your goal:sleeping_2::sleeping_2:

 

[SolaSaint]

What about the story of Joseph and his brothers in Genesis?

As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today. Gen 50:20

I cannot imagine a universe where God is not in control, totally. If anyone else in here is honest they would say the same. What if God wasn't in control of all, then one stray molecule has the possibility to destroy us all in the right circumstances. I would fear a world like that.

True, we cannot totally understand God, but that doesn't mean He has not revealed His attributes to us so we can be drawn by Him and worship Him. Special revelation has revealed the triune God to us and I thank God for men who have written beautiful creeds that capture what it means to have a relationship with Him. You don't have to agree with any creed but I beg you to find any error in the WCF by using scripture in context.

 

[Iconoclast]

What about the story of Joseph and his brothers in Genesis?

As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today. Gen 50:20

I cannot imagine a universe where God is not in control, totally. If anyone else in here is honest they would say the same. What if God wasn't in control of all, then one stray molecule has the possibility to destroy us all in the right circumstances. I would fear a world like that.
True, we cannot totally understand God, but that doesn't mean He has not revealed His attributes to us so we can be drawn by Him and worship Him. Special revelation has revealed the triune God to us and I thank God for men who have written beautiful creeds that capture what it means to have a relationship with Him. You don't have to agree with any creed but I beg you to find any error in the WCF by using scripture in context.

Of course! We could not pray if God was not in complete control.
God would not be God is Anything was outside of His control.
It is that several here have an agenda of 24/7 anti cal rhetoric so they make these silly posts. There are some that have real questions...but most just attack the biblical God and His truth...calling out profane names and posts of what they Think of Him.

 

[convicted1]

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbsup:

Hello RM,



God is in control off all things. What I believe can be shown by considering JOB1-2.....

To people observing they see Job and his family under attack. If we did not have the behind the scenes dialog of satan being the accuser...and God setting boundaries upon satan...we would not know what really happened.
God allowed severe testing to be inflicted on JOB....God did not cause the evil that satan inflicted, and yet God had ordained that it would happen.

Even the evil acts of evil men are ordained to come to pass....but God does not cause them.

The cross is the greatest example of this;

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain he judges righteously and no sin will go unpunished.


25 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?

26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.

27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

God is able to keep us from evil, or allow evil to come at us . Why He does as He does His part of His Immutable plan.

I believe nothing can take place that God has not ordained to happen.
There is no mistake ,accident, or coincidence......just God's predetermined plan and purpose providently being unfolded in time.

 

[convicted1]

:thumbs::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbs:

What about the story of Joseph and his brothers in Genesis?

As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today. Gen 50:20

I cannot imagine a universe where God is not in control, totally. If anyone else in here is honest they would say the same. What if God wasn't in control of all, then one stray molecule has the possibility to destroy us all in the right circumstances. I would fear a world like that.

True, we cannot totally understand God, but that doesn't mean He has not revealed His attributes to us so we can be drawn by Him and worship Him. Special revelation has revealed the triune God to us and I thank God for men who have written beautiful creeds that capture what it means to have a relationship with Him. You don't have to agree with any creed but I beg you to find any error in the WCF by using scripture in context.

 

[convicted1]

Of course! We could not pray if God was not in complete control.
God would not be God is Anything was outside of His control.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbsup:

 

[Reformed]

In another thread DHK offered this misguided thought.....support or be critical of these ideas he expressed......using scripture in your response;


I will respond in detail later, but for now I must go through Indy, Mo, and get Into Kansas...so it is up to you fine BB members to respond using the usual courtesy we see everyday:thumbs:

When DHK obliquely references Isaiah 55 in order to support his thesis that man cannot understand God's thoughts, his attempt is lazy and inaccurate. Isaiah 55 follows a series of successive chapters on Israel's sin, her just condemnation, and the compassion of the Lord calling the nation to repentance. God was not saying that no man can understand Him. We can understand those things which God reveals about Himself (and He reveals quite a bit about Himself in Scripture). God was saying that His call on Israel to turn to Him was not according to Israel's line of thinking. The nation was not seeking God on His terms. We know this because of the preposition "for" in Isaiah 55:8. "For" is a conclusion of a previous statement; specifically starting in verse 6:

"Seek the Lord while he may be found; call upon him while he is near; let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the Lord, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon."

DHK also displays horizontal thinking; an inability to draw theological constructs from the Word of God. The framers of the 1689 Second London Baptist Confession of Faith were not attempting to add to or misinterpret God's word. They articulated an understanding of how God orders all things without violating the will of the creature (i.e. allowing for human choice). DHK accuses the framers of arrogantly claiming to know God when Scripture says man cannot know God. Obviously DHK did not take the time to read the scripture references in chapter 3 of the 1689 LBC. And by improperly using Isaiah 55 to defend his argument he imperils all people everywhere by inferring that no one can understand God (specifically he says that "a finite man cannot understand an infinite God" but is there anything other than an infinite God?). What then of 1 Corinthians 2? Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 2:7-8,

"But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory."

What is this? A decree of God that has been revealed to us; namely what Christ accomplished on the cross.

Paul continues in 1 Corinthians 2:11-16:

"For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are follow to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. "For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ."

The spiritual man (i.e. the Christian) is able to understand those things about God that the Spirit reveals. The Spirit does so through the written Word of God. So yes, men are able to understand and comprehend the infinite God in those things in which God has revealed Himself. Are we capable of understanding all things about God. No. But the framers of the confession were not claiming to know all things about God.

 

[Revmitchell]

Hello RM,



God is in control off all things. What I believe can be shown by considering JOB1-2.....

To people observing they see Job and his family under attack. If we did not have the behind the scenes dialog of satan being the accuser...and God setting boundaries upon satan...we would not know what really happened.
God allowed severe testing to be inflicted on JOB....God did not cause the evil that satan inflicted, and yet God had ordained that it would happen.

Even the evil acts of evil men are ordained to come to pass....but God does not cause them.

The cross is the greatest example of this;

23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain he judges righteously and no sin will go unpunished.


25 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?

26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.

27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

God is able to keep us from evil, or allow evil to come at us . Why He does as He does His part of His Immutable plan.

I believe nothing can take place that God has not ordained to happen.
There is no mistake ,accident, or coincidence......just God's predetermined plan and purpose providently being unfolded in time.

It is a yes or no question.

 

[Revmitchell]

Why serve an imaginary God?

This is an unfair and inflammatory question.

God himself states that He cannot be comprehended. His thoughts are beyond our thoughts. A finite man cannot understand an infinite God.

God does not say that in everything He cannot be comprehended. We understand a great many things about God because He has revealed Himself to us.

God loves us. John 316
He wants to save us. John 316

You get the picture.

And yet this confession is arrogant enough to say "I understand," "I know."
It then proceeds to list the "decrees" of God which God Himself never told these uninspired writers. How do they presume to know the mind of God--the decrees of God? This is the height of arrogance.

We all disagreements about God and doctrine. That does not make one arrogant.

Let's look at an example:
We all remember when the WTC was bombed.
God knew it would happen. Therefore it was "decreed by God."
The Muslim says the same thing. It happened. Que sera sera. Therefore it was Allah's will. This is their doctrine of fatalism, essential to their faith.
RE: the WTC, they rejoiced while America mourned.

But this hard determinism of the Calvinist is nothing more than the fatalism of the Muslim. The doctrine is the same. Que sera, sera.

This is an inflammatory, unnecessary, and over the top comparison. I disagree with much of Calvinism but I would never try to tie them to the lost. Shame on you.

 

[Yeshua1]

Bob, Could you show scripturally anything that happens outside of God's control?

No, but that He BOTH determines all things to happen after His own Will directly, or else uses the decisions/choices of others to get His will done...

He has people making choices, and all of that is involved in Him being soveregn over all that comes to pass...

And think DHK was NOT stating tht the Confessions are bad in themselves, but that they are NOT fully accurate 100 % of the time, as the bible itself was and is the revelation from God to us, not ANY Conessions/Creeds!

 

[Iconoclast]

When DHK obliquely references Isaiah 55 in order to support his thesis that man cannot understand God's thoughts, his attempt is lazy and inaccurate. Isaiah 55 follows a series of successive chapters on Israel's sin, her just condemnation, and the compassion of the Lord calling the nation to repentance. God was not saying that no man can understand Him. We can understand those things which God reveals about Himself (and He reveals quite a bit about Himself in Scripture). God was saying that His call on Israel to turn to Him was not according to Israel's line of thinking. The nation was not seeking God on His terms. We know this because of the preposition "for" in Isaiah 55:8. "For" is a conclusion of a previous statement; specifically starting in verse 6:

"Seek the Lord while he may be found; call upon him while he is near; let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the Lord, that he may have compassion on him, and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon."

DHK also displays horizontal thinking; an inability to draw theological constructs from the Word of God. The framers of the 1689 Second London Baptist Confession of Faith were not attempting to add to or misinterpret God's word. They articulated an understanding of how God orders all things without violating the will of the creature (i.e. allowing for human choice). DHK accuses the framers of arrogantly claiming to know God when Scripture says man cannot know God. Obviously DHK did not take the time to read the scripture references in chapter 3 of the 1689 LBC. And by improperly using Isaiah 55 to defend his argument he imperils all people everywhere by inferring that no one can understand God (specifically he says that "a finite man cannot understand an infinite God" but is there anything other than an infinite God?). What then of 1 Corinthians 2? Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 2:7-8,

"But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory."

What is this? A decree of God that has been revealed to us; namely what Christ accomplished on the cross.

Paul continues in 1 Corinthians 2:11-16:

"For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are follow to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. "For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ."

The spiritual man (i.e. the Christian) is able to understand those things about God that the Spirit reveals. The Spirit does so through the written Word of God. So yes, men are able to understand and comprehend the infinite God in those things in which God has revealed Himself. Are we capable of understanding all things about God. No. But the framers of the confession were not claiming to know all things about God.

Thank you for this fine and instructive post brother:thumbs:
You have clearly seen the issues being discussed and provided more context to the verses in question.
Your view which is articulated quite clearly helps clarify what I tried to express in the two threads which have become related:wavey:

 

[Iconoclast]

[Yeshua1

And think DHK was NOT stating tht the Confessions are bad in themselves,

look again

but that they are NOT fully accurate 100 % of the time, as the bible itself was and is the revelation from God to us, not ANY Conessions/Creeds!

You repeat this but this statement is meaningless in that none of the writers claimed they were infallible. Read...okay I will post it here..because I am not sure you have ever read it;
1. The Holy Scriptures


1. The Holy Scripture is the only sufficient, certain, and infallible rule of all saving knowledge, faith, and obedience.
Although the light of nature and the works of creation and providence manifest the goodness, wisdom, and power of God so much that man is left without any excuse, they are not sufficient to provide that knowledge of God and His will which is necessary for salvation.

Therefore it pleased the Lord at sundry times and in divers manners to reveal Himself, and to declare His will to His church;

- and afterward, for the better preserving and propagating of the truth, and for the more sure establishment and comfort of the church, protecting it against the corruption of the flesh and the malice of Satan and the world,

- it pleased the Lord to commit His revealed Truth wholly to writing. Therefore the Holy Scriptures are most necessary, those former ways by which God revealed His will unto His people having now ceased.

All of them start this way...stating that the scriptures alone are the rule of faith and practice......

so it is up to you to demonstrate otherwise or not post as you have.

 

[Iconoclast]

This is an unfair and inflammatory question.

God does not say that in everything He cannot be comprehended. We understand a great many things about God because He has revealed Himself to us.

God loves us. John 316
He wants to save us. John 316

You get the picture.

We all disagreements about God and doctrine. That does not make one arrogant.

This is an inflammatory, unnecessary, and over the top comparison. I disagree with much of Calvinism but I would never try to tie them to the lost. Shame on you.[/QUOTE]

Thank You RM for your objectivity in posting this ,and seeing the issue quite clearly. A person should be able to maintain and support their view without going to these extremes:wavey::applause::applause::thumbsup:

 

[InTheLight]

Do you believe that in order for God to be in control God has to ordain it?

It is a yes or no question.

Did you ever get an answer?