Time and the Creation Account

[Gold Dragon]

If we take the words of the Bible seriously then I think we will be self-motivated to dig into the words of the Bible and take the lessons to heart. The question in my mind is "did God need 1000s of years to perform acts of creation or did he just speak the word as stated in the Bible? Can the English word "day" in Genesis mean centuries? Did God inspire Moses to use the correct words to reveal his creation or is it just a rough estimate? Is our God an awesome God with unlimited power or does He need time and chance to accomplish His goals?"

I’ll start us off if you prefer. I'll respond to others too but will try to focus the discussion with thomas15.

I do not aim to convince you of my position but to bring us both to a better understanding of the wonderful scripture describing the creation account and the magnificent science bearing witness to the creation account which are not in conflict as I’m sure we both agree. What is in conflict is how we interpret that scripture and how we interpret that scientific evidence.

In terms of the practice of hermeneutics, it is always important to try to remove our own pretext from an interpretation (as impossible as that may be), consider the literary context of a passage as well as the cultural/historical context of the author and initial audience of the literary work. With those thoughts in mind...

1. did God need 1000s of years or did he just speek the work as stated in the Bible?
As scripture says, God spoke and it was created. What he spoke into creation could have taken 1000s or millions of years to come to fruition or a single second. How long it actually took we can get an idea when looking at His creation.

2. Can the English word "day" in Genesis mean centuries?
I would say the hebrew word yom in the immediate context is referring to a day and not an age. But interpretation of a passage is not just about individual words but also the literary context of the sentences, paragraphs and entire book that the passage finds itself in. For example, the hebrew word for shepherd in Psalm 23 does not tell us that it is a metaphor but the context of the passage does.

In the broader context of the chapter of Genesis 1 we see structure, repetition, patterns and a strong parallel with the work week that gives insight into the literary genre as well as the purpose of the chapter. Whether that is a scientific historical recounting (a literary genre that did not exist at that time) or some other purpose is something we can get into a little later.

3. Did God inspire Moses to use the correct words to reveal his creation or is it just a rough estimate?
By faith I believe that God inspired the holy, pure and trustworthy words of Genesis and His entire scripture. If Genesis 1 used rough estimates, God could still have inspired those words. Just like Exodus 32:28.

4. Is our God an awesome God with unlimited power or does He need time and chance to accomplish His goals?
He could create everything in a millisecond, or last tuesday. But the question is did He?

 

[37818]

Two things I believe.

That our observable universe is really measured to be some 13.7 billion years old.

That Genesis creation account is literally true.

 

[Gold Dragon]

thomas15, I guess my questions to you would be

1. What literary genre does Genesis 1 appear to be and how does it differ structurally from the rest of Genesis.

2. What do you notice about the parallels between day 1-3 vs day 4-6 of the the story?

3. How does that parallel extend to God’s role for humans?

4. What is God’s relationship with His creation described in the chapter?

 

[Reformed1689]

Two things I believe.

That our observable universe is really measured to be some 13.7 billion years old.

That Genesis creation account is literally true.

And the question is can we accurately measure the age of the universe? Measuring the age of the universe makes a lot of assumptions such as constants and original state.

One could have observed Adam after he was created and measure him to be an adult, not a newborn. But I don't think anyone believes Adam was created as a baby.

 

[37818]

And the question is can we accurately measure the age of the universe? Measuring the age of the universe makes a lot of assumptions such as constants and original state.

One could have observed Adam after he was created and measure him to be an adult, not a newborn. But I don't think anyone believes Adam was created as a baby.

That does not change the two sets of fact.

The written document of Genesis. And an observable universe in which measurements of sorts can be made.

If we start with Genesis and not knowing God. And an observable measurable universe. What is one most likely to believe?

 

[timtofly]

Two things I believe.

That our observable universe is really measured to be some 13.7 billion years old.

That Genesis creation account is literally true.

The "observable universe" does not even exist. It is a virtual reality in our minds of Satan's complete deception. When God rolls back the heavens like a scroll, Satan's "virtual movie" (we have in our minds that which is not there) will end, and spiritual blindness will be removed. Yes there are stars in the sky and groups of stars. They are angels and they move in clockwork fashion in the sky. A clock that has been the same for 6991 years. So predictable, ancient people got the notion they could "predict" anything.

The 6 days are literal days. The 7th is given no time stamp. The Lord's Day per 2 Peter 3:8 is 1000 years on earth with the Lord. The Lord did not stop being with the sons of God. The Lord stopped creating for 1000 years.

Then God starts up "work" after the 1000 years, when God plants a Garden called Eden, and places one son of God in Eden. After this son of God names the animals, God names him Adam.

 

[timtofly]

3. Did God inspire Moses to use the correct words to reveal his creation or is it just a rough estimate?
By faith I believe that God inspired the holy, pure and trustworthy words of Genesis and His entire scripture. If Genesis 1 used rough estimates, God could still have inspired those words. Just like Exodus 32:28.

The literary format would be used to allow the Hebrews a way to memorize the text. I know some want to claim literary genre, to claim historical or future attributes to the text. That is context, not really the actual literary style of the text itself. Context is comparing Scripture with Scripture despite literary style. Trying to claim words themselves have meanings therefore we group words together and claim the writer can only use these words to make a point is nonsense. All the usages of a particular word like "a thousand" does not mean every time God uses "a thousand" it is only figurative and not literal is a famous ploy used by some.

However the term Day of the Lord is figurative of a certain number. That number is not always given in the same text. The "Lord's Day" or the Day of Adonai, the Day of the Lord doing something is not confined to 24 hours.

We associate Sunday as the Lord's Day. Thus every time we read Day of the Lord, we assume 24 hours. "Sunday" is not used in the KJV. It is written as the first day of the week. The church indoctrinated the use of the Lord's Day as the first day of the week, but outside of Scripture. Not the same argument as SDA, though. In Revelation 1, John is not referring to a Sunday. He is referring to the Millennium reign of Christ. Genesis 2:1-6 also uses Day of the Lord. Both passages are figurative of a length. 2 Peter 3:8 is the Scripture that interprets Genesis 2 and Revelation 1. There is one chapter where only a number is given without the writer using the figurative term. John in Revelation 20 wanted to be specific without any doubt as to the length. So specific, many do not even want to involve the Lord on earth at all.

 

[Reformed1689]

The "observable universe" does not even exist. It is a virtual reality in our minds of Satan's complete deception. When God rolls back the heavens like a scroll, Satan's "virtual movie" (we have in our minds that which is not there) will end, and spiritual blindness will be removed. Yes there are stars in the sky and groups of stars. They are angels and they move in clockwork fashion in the sky. A clock that has been the same for 6991 years. So predictable, ancient people got the notion they could "predict" anything.

The 6 days are literal days. The 7th is given no time stamp. The Lord's Day per 2 Peter 3:8 is 1000 years on earth with the Lord. The Lord did not stop being with the sons of God. The Lord stopped creating for 1000 years.

Then God starts up "work" after the 1000 years, when God plants a Garden called Eden, and places one son of God in Eden. After this son of God names the animals, God names him Adam.

Yeah this has no truth in it either.

 

[dad2]

That does not change the two sets of fact.

The written document of Genesis. And an observable universe in which measurements of sorts can be made.

If we start with Genesis and not knowing God. And an observable measurable universe. What is one most likely to believe?

No. We do not know that time itself exists as we know it in the universe. There can be no measurements. Light speed for example is only a measure of how light moves here in our time and space. That cannot be carried over to the far universe.

 

[Salty]

That our observable universe is really measured to be some 13.7 billion years old.

I thought it was 13.72 billion years......

 

[37818]

No. We do not know that time itself exists as we know it in the universe. There can be no measurements. Light speed for example is only a measure of how light moves here in our time and space. That cannot be carried over to the far universe.

Do you know about atomic spectra? They are like finger prints for each type of atom. The speed of light has been measured and then given a defined velocity.

 

[37818]

I thought it was 13.72 billion years......

https://phys.org/news/2020-07-oldest-age-universe.html

 

[dad2]

Do you know about atomic spectra? They are like finger prints for each type of atom. The speed of light has been measured and then given a defined velocity.

The problem is that it is here that it has been measured. While here in this space and time light was measured. (as well as everything else that was ever measured) With atoms also, time is involved. We have only experienced atoms doing what they do in the time it takes for them to do it...here. Nowhere else. No one has gone out in the far universe to measure anything.

 

[SGO]

But from the beginning of the creation
God made them male and female.
Mark 10:6

 

[SGO]

That the blood of all the prophets,
which was shed from the foundation of the world,
may be required of this generation:
Luke 11:50

For we which have believed
do enter into rest,
as he said,
As I have sworn in my wrath,
if they shall enter into my rest:
although the works were finished
from the foundation of the world.
Hebrews 4:3

 

[37818]

The problem is that it is here that it has been measured. While here in this space and time light was measured. (as well as everything else that was ever measured) With atoms also, time is involved. We have only experienced atoms doing what they do in the time it takes for them to do it...here. Nowhere else. No one has gone out in the far universe to measure anything.

There are telescopes. And there are instruments and cameras used on them to observe and take measurements.

The Milky Way our Galaxy.
Andromada Galaxy can also be seen with the eye. It has been measured to be 2.5 million light years away.

 

[dad2]

There are telescopes. And there are instruments and cameras used on them to observe and take measurements.

The Milky Way our Galaxy.
Andromada Galaxy can also be seen with the eye. It has been measured to be 2.5 million light years away.

You do realize that the light telescopes see is here? That tells us nothing about whether time exists there as we know it here. So how much time was involved in the light getting here? No one knows. Science has only assumed that the speed light moves here must also be how it is everywhere. That is 100% belief.

 

[37818]

You do realize that the light telescopes see is here? That tells us nothing about whether time exists there as we know it here. So how much time was involved in the light getting here? No one knows. Science has only assumed that the speed light moves here must also be how it is everywhere. That is 100% belief.

LOL. Yes it does, regarding the seen distant past. Of course the distant now of what is seen as the distant past may already be desolved as of right now. Otherwise the laws of physics, and the seen past. The velocity of light. There is no evidence of change.

 

[dad2]

LOL. Yes it does, regarding the seen distant past. Of course the distant now of what is seen as the distant past may already be desolved as of right now. Otherwise the laws of physics, and the seen past. The velocity of light. There is no evidence of change.

No, you only believe the distant past thing. That would only be true if time existed the whole way as it exists here in the area of this little solar system. We do not know that it does. Period. You cannot claim there is evidence or no evidence for the unknown. No one has ever checked out there to see what time was like. We only see things like light here after it arrives here. As you mentioned, the stars might have vanished already, we just did not get the light yet. So how in the world would you be able to tell us what time out there was like? Impossible. Certainly not by what we see here. Light has only been clocked moving here in the area of this solar system. When we see events in the distant universe happen, we only assume that the same time must have been involved in light out there moving. The whole thing is belief based and somewhat circular reasoning.

 

[37818]

No, you only believe the distant past thing. That would only be true if time existed the whole way as it exists here in the area of this little solar system. We do not know that it does. Period. You cannot claim there is evidence or no evidence for the unknown. No one has ever checked out there to see what time was like. We only see things like light here after it arrives here. As you mentioned, the stars might have vanished already, we just did not get the light yet. So how in the world would you be able to tell us what time out there was like? Impossible. Certainly not by what we see here. Light has only been clocked moving here in the area of this solar system. When we see events in the distant universe happen, we only assume that the same time must have been involved in light out there moving. The whole thing is belief based and somewhat circular reasoning.

I assume you agree God is not a liar. Titus 1:2
Psalms 90:2, ". . . from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God. . . ." When God created time the eternal now became everlasting without beginning and everlasting without end. And light also means truth. 1 John 1:5, John 1:9. So the distant past is really the distant past. Mass energy and time are inter related. Energy divided by the square of the velocity of light in empty space equals the mass of matter. There is the written word of God and the natural word of God, Romans 10:17-18, Psalms 19:4. Matthew 4:4, Isaiah 55:11.