Time to renew my challenge

And I don't see this. I guess it is a matter of perspective. To me, there is no "need." You told Bob in another thread that you don't think about SDA's other than in dealing with him. Well, pretty much ditto for me concerning Catholics. I have gone much longer than 24 hours without so much as a passing allusion to Catholics. And many others that I know are the same. Trust me, I am a seminary student at a conservative Baptist school and we do not sit around talking about the RCC and ways to undermine and overthrow it. That just does not exist. Very rarely do I ever here about anything Catholic with regards to your teachings.

So atrocities and worse things done that what you are bringing up now are justifiable and acceptable? Give me a break! Yes, it is important with how we live now. However, many things that you claim are "lies" are not really that. Remember perspective? We don't just accept one of your teachings because you say it is such and such. There is more to it than just taking your word for it. And if you are really worried about the present, there are many atrocities that have very recently gone on in the RCC that should cause you problems. Hate is not the only sin out there.

Ah, yes, the source of all truth: Google! Come on, Mike. Yes, there are whackos out there. However, I think there are some things that you are passing off as "hate" when actually they are merely criticisms of Catholic teachings.

I guess it depends on what is a fellow Christian and when. And I hate (no pun intended ) to tell you, but this has not always been the case. Unless, of course, you have been in every mind of every Catholic in history.

Huh? One of the most rude and hateful encounters I have ever had from another "believer" was from a proclaimed Catholic less than a year ago here in town. So is that the way we now determine the truthfulness of someone's faith? Come on, Mike. There has to be more. It is absolutely invalid for you to pick hate and make that your one "non-forgivable" sin. Did all of those priests that molested so many children love them? I would most definitely call that a hideous form of hate. Do you really want to go down this path? It is absolutely no more valid than many you are trying to criticize here.

And can you please list some of these hateful dealings and "lies" espoused by either MacArthur, White, or Svendsen? This is the third time I have asked for some objective information to look at. I have gotten one topic so far. If there is no more objective issues, this conversation is fruitless and a waste of time.

In Christ,
Neal

 

So about your challenge: How many Catholics are even writing books about what they believe? There are loads of books written by a number of protestant authors about what they believe. If the Catholic Chruch claims to have so many members then where are the authors?

When I was a kid I seldom saw any books written by Catholics. When I have gone to the Catholic bookstore I see few. But I can remember a few priests coming to the seminary where I was a student and they were using the Baptist library. We had the largest theological library in the US if not in the world. We had books from a number of denominations and cults, etc. They were there so we could read them first hand. Reading them allowe me to read the primary source. If you read some of the Catholic documents written by its own people and its problem you wouldn't be so quick to gloss over some things.

I read a book written by the Catholic Chruch and its problem with homosexuality among priests. That book was written as a result of a study they did about the 1930's. They were extrememly concerned with the issue of celibacy and the effect it was having.

Just because someone exposes the truth does not mean they hate that person. When I tell my children about something that is a lie or is wrong I am in effect guiding them and loving them. I am wanting the best for them.

It doesn't take millions of books for something to be credible. It only takes one credible source.

All my life I heard lies from the Catholic Church about protestants from the pulpit. I viewed them as evil. I saw Christians as evil. But when I decided to pick up the Bible one day I realized what a Christian really was. The internal conflict all began about the same time. When I started reading the Douay Bible I reslized that what I was told was not what I was reading. When I began to discuss these things with my mother she even began to do the same thing I did. She asked the priest. So she would just repeat what the priest said. So often I realized that what he said was not at all what I read. SO when we talked about what the Bible said it was interesting what began to happen. She started reading the Bible herself and is a Christian today.

 

Saturday, September 20, 2003

Diocese calls Capilla de la Fe phony

The Associated Press

ATLANTA - The Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Atlanta has filed a lawsuit accusing a network of Spanish-speaking churches of falsely claiming to be Catholic - with priests who celebrate Mass, hear confessions and offer Communion to immigrants who mistakenly think the churches are tied to the Vatican.

"These men dress as priests and conduct services that appear to be a Catholic Mass," said archdiocese attorney David Brown. "You cannot simply set up in whatever church and call yourself Roman Catholic. That's fraud."

The lawsuit, filed Monday, seeks an injunction against Capilla de la Fe, or Chapel of the Faith, churches, barring them from calling themselves Catholic.

It also asks for unspecified damages for donations worshippers gave in the belief the money would go to the Catholic Church.

It is thought to be the first lawsuit of its kind filed by the U.S. Catholic Church, Brown said.

The Capilla de la Fe churches would not allow reporters inside. A secretary at one location said only that the church was nondenominational.

The archdiocese argues that the congregants, often new to America, are duped into believing they are in a Roman Catholic church.

The Capilla de la Fe priests "raise considerable funds" selling religious items and holy objects, Brown said.

The archdiocese was so alarmed that it sent its own Hispanic priests to services to see what Capilla de la Fe priests were telling people. In July, Archbishop John Donoghue sent a letter to churches, warning them about phony Spanish-speaking priests.

"For months now this group, 'Capilla de la Fe,' has been creating confusion in the Hispanic community by pretending to be in communion with the Church," Donoghue wrote. "Unfortunately many of our good Hispanic people are confused by their pretense and they are leading many away from the Catholic Church."

found at http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/index.php?page=national&story_id=092003a9_catholics

 

So now the Catholic Church is even lying about how many members it has, eh? Apparently the Catholic Church will lie about anything and everything. That's why I'm so mystified that I can't find all these books full of lies! I mean, surely they could have forced all those poor priests and nuns to write the books, couldn't they have? And they could have printed them with the money they took from the poor in the collection plates, right?

Yeah, we need to force all those priests to abandon a life of sanctified celibacy, just like Christ abandoned it. Do please cite the book title so we can all look for it.

Trust me on this one: homosexuality has disappeared as a problem in the Catholic priesthood for far longer than you or I will be around

That's nice. Not on topic, but nice.

So you won't even allow that Catholics are Christians, will you? </font>[/QUOTE]Where did you ever get the idea that I said the Catholic Church ever lied about its numbers of members? You could probably look up my name. Aren't people members for life in the RCC? Look in the bookstore in SFO and see for yourself how many Catholic books are written on what they believe. You just might know about some of the men who formed a scholarship committee in the 1970's. I am sure you have read a number of books by Raymond E. Brown. Haven’t you? Perhaps you have read some by Roland Murphy. Haven't you? Who are your favorite Catholic scholars?

You can call the seminary where the book about the RCC problem on homosexuality is located. It is located in the reference section at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth, Texas. Just shows how much time I spend thinking about Catholicism. I can’t even remember the name of the book. It's been too many years since I have seen the book. I spend most of my time just trying to understand the historical context of scripture. How about you?

As I recall there are married priests today in the RCC. So what does that do to the consistency of a church doctrine that seemed to be so important at one time? Maybe you can tell us why they have begun to accept married priests now.

In regards to the problem of homosexuality: Are you verifying there was a problem? What do you call an attraction for boys then? I know that is different. That requires a different word and a somewhat different action. But aren’t they the same gender? It seems that was a huge topic in 2002 and even 2003.

If you were to read some of my past posts about Catholics you would have noticed that over the years I have had a number of Catholics in Bible studies I lead.

Actually I find that many of them have a great attitude and want to learn more about the Bible just like those Roman Catholic priests who studied at the same Baptist seminary I did. I find those who want to know what the Bible teaches have the same thing in common with others who are on the same path. They are not interested in a quest for upholding the denomination but are in a search for knowing the truth. I respect that in anyone who earnestly desires that, even if I disagree with them.

I am not here to uphold any denomination. Everyone that I am aware of has problem bcause they are made up of people. But what bothers me is when any church claims perfection. Man on his own will never come up with perfect doctrine. It is only from God not a pope that others claim to be infallible.

I wonder is anyone has asked the pope if he is infallible?

In my dictionary it defines infallible as not fallible; exempt from liability to error, as persons, their judgment, or pronouncements.

I am sure you know some have fallen and are a disgrace to Rome. Don't you? Sometime could you introduce me to someone who is infallible so I can ask him if he is. I wonder how God would answer that for a person. As I understand it God is the only person who is infallible. So is the pope equal with God?

 

The Catholic Church teaches that non-Catholics can not be saved by the New Covenent of scripture - but must find "another" way in.

The Catholic Church teaches extermination of Protestants (as quoted by RC councils on the Extermination thread posted here).

MikeS claims that is "not" the same thing as publishing a web site barking against non-Catholics.

You be the judge.

In Christ,

Bob

 

I will assume, from lack of response after asking three times, that the only "lie" that the likes of MacArthur, White, and Svendsen perpetuate is that Catholics sacrifice Christ over and over. Seeing this, this thread was a huge waste of time and from the lack of dealing with the facts from both sides of the issue, this thread was merely a "ploy" to try and trap Protestants. You are merely doing what you are complaining that others are doing. What a shame; rather than moving forward with anything, you merely are taking two steps back and do not help any fruitful dialogue between Catholics and Protestants.

In Christ,
Neal

 

Here was Mike's original question (challenge):

What we answered Mike with was sites that gave objective and truthful information about Catholicism, such as MacArthur's--the kind of site and information that they hate. David Cloud also is a good source. But Mike doesn't want the truth about Catholicism. He wants us to find for him his own Catholic resources that (he says) unfairly attack Protestants. Well the best place to look for that Mike is right here on this board. We could gather all these anti-Protestant quotes from you and your cohorts and publish the book that you are looking for.
The information that you are looking for is scarce to find, the reason being is that the Protestant churches as a whole are evangelical and preach the gospel--a gospel by grace through faith and not of works. The Catholic church teaches salvation by works. You lack information Mike because it is hard to fight against the truth. It is the truth that will make you free.
DHK

 

Neal, the fact is that people like White and Svedson are notorious for anti-Catholicism because the majority of their time and minstry is devoted to attacking the Catholic Church or perhaps they would say "exposing the lies of the Catholic Church". That might not make them anti-Catholic, but that is mainly what their work is about. James White has literally had dozens of live, broadcasted debates with Catholic apologists and I have listened to many of them. Naturally, he takes Church doctrine knowing perfectly well what it is and purposefully confuses it with something it is not like with justification, sacred scripture and tradition, the mass etc. He says that Catholics don't like the Bible, that Christ's sacrifice on the cross means nothing to Catholics, that Mary is worshipped and equal to God, basically the questions and lies most Protestans think the Church is all about. I've been to his site many times before and his tone towards Catholics is less than charitable and cordial. Are Catholics guilty of this too? Of course, but the point MikeS was making is that there aren't the kind of people that advance and devote their entire minstry towards attacking another group. It is so bad that Catholics have had to respond with programs like Catholic Answers.

 

So to announce anyone anathema is to keep them from having fellowship within the church. According to the catholic church, without fellowship within the church there is no chance of salvation. Then these doctrines are about as anti-protestant as you can get.

To disagree with these doctrines is to believe the Word of God over the church. That is not allowed in the catholic church.

Where protestants and others outside of the catholic church will share the truth with you, we allow you to examine the scriptures and determine what the truth is for yourself. But the catholic church is not so considerate. If you believe one of these doctrines, then according to the Catholic Church, you are eternally condemned. You cannot simply "agree to disagree" for they believe they are the final authority by which all scripture, tradition and doctrine are tested.

There is no middle ground and there can be no unity with a Church that violates scripture and does not allow their doctrines to ever be questioned or tested against scripture alone.

The catholic church isn't simply full of people who are liars and fakers, the entire system is false and a lie. You attack protestantism and any denomination that disagrees with the catholic church in the very heart of your own church documents. We are merely pointing out those same differences. When we do, you yell and scream about how we are pushing our anti-catholic propaganda. If that is how you define it, then above we see clearly that your church has it's own anti-anyonenotcatholic propaganda.

This challenge will never be sufficiently answered because it's answer is dependant upon a person's definition of truth. Without agreeing upon the source for the truth, we will never come to a conclusion. While we look to scripture for the truth, you look to the church. Since you do so, you will always see anyone opposing it as anti-catholic, no matter how valid their argument may be.

~Lorelei

 

And what is the fullness of truth? That a pope
needs to tell everyone else what is doctrine and
what isn't? I guess the Holy Spirit isn't
omnipresent or can only be comprehended by one
man who apparently has his own problems being
understood?

The fullness of truth is that I must consume
wine and crackers daily in order to be worthy
and that the rite must be performed by a priest
consecrated by other men?

The fullness of truth is that Mary is the mother
of GOD? She wasn't just a godly virgin through
which GOD brought Christ to the world?

The fullness of truth is that if I give lots of
money to the church, I can receive absolution
for sins I might have forgotten or might
forget?

The fullness of truth is that if I feel lead to
be a bishop in the church, I better not be married?

The fullness of truth is that the Old Testament
is only an allegorical tale to point the way
to Christ but the New Testament is factual in as
much as a pope says so?

Shall we continue in this fullness of truth?

 

I must disagree with you about White. Catholicism is not his only, and I would say not even his main, thrust. He debates KJVOs, Mormons, and others besides Catholics. And he is a very big proponent of Reformed theology, which is what I would say his major contribution is, at least here on my campus. He does not eat, drink, and sleep "anti-Catholicism."

I am unsure as to Svendsen. I am positive about MacArthur, though. I just want to know specific issues that people have with these three, not vague and general accusations. At least know what you have a problem with, right? That is what Catholics would tell us Protestants, so why should we ask for anything less?

In Christ,
Neal

 

Yes, I have conceded that it isn't his only work, but his main one which I still maintain. He has done stuff on JWs, Mormons, KJV-onlyism but they are nowhere near comparable to the amount of attention he has devoted to RCism. I can think of three books off the top of my head that he has authored that deal soley with (anti)RCism and again he has had tons of live debates and still does with Catholic apologists. His push for reformed theology naturally seems to be intmately connected to anti-Catholicism. His own sister has attested in her conversion story too to her brother's obvious anti-Catholicism.

Where do you attend seminary?

 

Denying Mary is the Mother of God is denying that Christ is true God and true man. This is heresy. Unless Christ be true man born of woman, He can not save us. Do not deny the Christian faith simply to condemn the Roman Catholics.

When the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth His Son, made of a woman, made under the Law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. Gal. 4:4,5

And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. Luke 1:35

 

Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary in Wake Forest, NC.

Out of curiosity, what are the books authored by White dealing with Catholicism (I am not saying I doubt you, just wondering)? I have The Roman Catholic Controversy, but what are the other two?

Thanks in advance.

In Christ,
Neal

 

Sorry to interupt...

Neal, do you not use AIM anymore? Just haven't seen you on there in a long time, and I miss our talks.

Okay, you can resume now!

God bless,

Grant

 

The Fatal Flaw and Mary-Another Redeemer

 

Thanks, again!

In Christ,
Neal