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Time Travel Theology
- Thread starter Van
- Start date
Notice that people in the spiritual realm were aware of the passage of time, but this poster does not address that biblical truth. No, he wants to address what I never said. Go figure...
Why would some posters seek to claim God is "outside of time?" To deny the sequence provided by His word.
They say the OT saints were "regenerated" before Christ died, not by the shed blood of the Lamb, but by the "promised" shed blood of the Lamb.
Matthew 19:28 (NASB)
And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
When are people said to be regenerated? Before or after Christ died and arose and ascended? After! Thus the OT saints were to follow Christ in regeneration not before. How do you get around this? Why God is outside of time so the sequence given does not mean what it says.
How are people made righreous? By the washing of regeneration, which occurs after Christ died, providing the necessary sacrifice to justify believers. Titus 3:5. Where are people regenerated, made alive? Together, spiritually, with Christ, Ephesians 2:5.
Are we saved then given faith or are we saved by grace through faith? Through faith meaning our faith was utilized in the salvation process, thus existing before salvation. How do we get around this? Why God is outside of time so the sequence given does not mean what it seems to say!
Time travel theology is bogus theology.
They say the OT saints were "regenerated" before Christ died, not by the shed blood of the Lamb, but by the "promised" shed blood of the Lamb.
Matthew 19:28 (NASB)
And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
When are people said to be regenerated? Before or after Christ died and arose and ascended? After! Thus the OT saints were to follow Christ in regeneration not before. How do you get around this? Why God is outside of time so the sequence given does not mean what it says.
How are people made righreous? By the washing of regeneration, which occurs after Christ died, providing the necessary sacrifice to justify believers. Titus 3:5. Where are people regenerated, made alive? Together, spiritually, with Christ, Ephesians 2:5.
Are we saved then given faith or are we saved by grace through faith? Through faith meaning our faith was utilized in the salvation process, thus existing before salvation. How do we get around this? Why God is outside of time so the sequence given does not mean what it seems to say!
Time travel theology is bogus theology.
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unprofitable
Active Member
Christ told the Pharisees in Luke 17:21 "the kingdom of God is within you." The kingdom was there in the form of Christ and his Apostles, in their very presence. Both the Pharisees and those they hindered from entering could neither see physically nor discern spiritually its existence. (John 3:3) Except a man be born from above...
Proverbs 20:12 The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, the Lord hath made even both of them. Given a new heart to believe and discern, not of ourselves but of the work of the hands of God.
Proverbs 20:12 The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, the Lord hath made even both of them. Given a new heart to believe and discern, not of ourselves but of the work of the hands of God.
unprofitable
Active Member
The regeneration is the setting in order of the kingdom of God. It is the bringing in of the new covenant. It is the return to the oracles of God. There has been a remnant since the time of Adam that has both seen and understood the kingdom in its spiritual aspect.
Jeremiah 6:16 Thus saith the Lord, Stand ye in the ways and SEE, and ask (SEEK) for the old paths (oracles), where is the good way (knowledge of Christ as the way (John 14:6), his kingdom and righteousness (Mattew 6:33). How could Jeremiah command Israel to do this unless it was a knowledge already given?
Those made alive in Christ were able to see and hear the covenant commands in Jeremiah 11:6 when he tells them to "Hear ye the words of this covenant AND do them". Abraham was one who heard the words of the covenant and did them, and brought forth righteousness as a work. How could he possibly have kept the words of the covenant unless he believed the words of the covenant giver? (John 3:16)
To hear the words of the covenant and do them (again John 3:16) is the end result to having seeing eyes and hearing ears (SPIRITUALLY) spoken of in Proverbs 20:12. The creation or formation of them by the Lord in being made alive is necessary before the work of righteousness can be done.
You fail to see the work of Christ in the old testament.
Jeremiah 6:16 Thus saith the Lord, Stand ye in the ways and SEE, and ask (SEEK) for the old paths (oracles), where is the good way (knowledge of Christ as the way (John 14:6), his kingdom and righteousness (Mattew 6:33). How could Jeremiah command Israel to do this unless it was a knowledge already given?
Those made alive in Christ were able to see and hear the covenant commands in Jeremiah 11:6 when he tells them to "Hear ye the words of this covenant AND do them". Abraham was one who heard the words of the covenant and did them, and brought forth righteousness as a work. How could he possibly have kept the words of the covenant unless he believed the words of the covenant giver? (John 3:16)
To hear the words of the covenant and do them (again John 3:16) is the end result to having seeing eyes and hearing ears (SPIRITUALLY) spoken of in Proverbs 20:12. The creation or formation of them by the Lord in being made alive is necessary before the work of righteousness can be done.
You fail to see the work of Christ in the old testament.
Not true or even a reasonable guess!
What verse indicates that "the Kingdom of God" is in the form of Christ and His Apostles?
The lost are able to comprehend the existence of the Kingdom of God from God's revelation.
The idea of "see" has been addressed many times before. Recall the idea of "seeing" your Doctor, i.e a face to face visit within his place of presence?
No need to redefine the meaning of "regeneration" from what the lexicon's tell us. It means to be originated anew. Thus made alive, rather than conceived in iniquity, in a spiritually dead, separated from God state.
And once again the fact we are chosen for salvation through faith is ignored, because that requires our faith to exist before we were chosen. It is a lock.
unprofitable
Active Member
Why do you think they call it the NEW covenant?
unprofitable
Active Member
Christ says in Matthew 21:43, "Therefore say I unto you, the kingdom of God shall be taken from you and given to a NATION (therefore a KINGDOM) bringing forth the fruits thereof.
What nation was the kingdom given to?
How can a NATION/KINGDOM/PEOPLE bring forth fruit without the being given the Holy Spirit?
Have we been 2000 years without the kingdom of God and the Holy Spirit?
Your point would have to make the lost being able to bring forth fruit of the Holy Spirit in a dead state.
Christ says God is a God of the living and NOT the dead. Mark 12:27
1 Peter 2:9. But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an HOLY NATION, a peculiar people, that ye should bring forth the praises of Him, who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.
This is the scriptural church, the kingdom of God
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unprofitable
Active Member
unprofitable
Active Member
I shudder that you would say the OT saints had "self proclaimed righteousness". This is what Paul condemned in Romans 10:3 "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish (self proclaim) their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God," We also see the "self-proclaimed righteousness" of the Pharisee in Luke 18:11.
This brings us back to the meaning of "regeneration". Regeneration also means to restore to the original condition or state. Christ regenerated, or returned to original state or condition, the withered hand of the man in Matthew 3-1. It can also mean to return to the original state of fellowship and understanding as in the garden. Concerning the bringing in the kingdom of God in the form of the local literal church, it is prophesied in Ezekiel 36:35. "and they shall say that this land that was desolate is become like the garden of Eden, and the waste, and desolate, and ruined cities (dead in trespasses and sins), are become fenced and inhabited." (Regenerated or rebuilt upon the original foundation, formed from before the foundation of the world, and dwelling safely by the work of the Lord) (Luke 1:68-79).
I do not deny that Christ had to come and die and be resurrected as part of the plan to save Israel from his sins, but he would not do it under the Old Covenant that was temporary, that pointed to Christ, and wherein the meaning and intent of the New Covenant or Everlasting Covenant was hidden in types and shadows. It is included in the teaching of Mattew 13:11 and Deuteronomy 29:4. The temple had to be brought level with the ground. It had to be built upon a new, yet original foundation with Christ as the chief cornerstone with the prophets and apostles in the foundation. (Ephesians 2:20). How did they get in there without seeing, believing, and understanding the true, everlasting covenant and kingdom of God? They are included because they saw the Everlasting Covenant of Genesis 17:7,19, Isaiah 55:3, 59:20-21 and Jeremiah 32:40 just to name a few. How could they see, believe and understand in a dead state of misunderstanding? Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? NOT ONE.
continued=
unprofitable
Active Member
The Old Testament brethren were restored or regenerated to the original understanding of the eternal covenant as evidenced by their being able to incline their ear, to hear, hearken, to do, and obey, (Jeremiah 11:6, Isaiah 55:3) and not listen to and go after other gods as did Eve. It is not something that can be done under one's own power or vain imagination. (Jeremiah 17:9)
Isaiah 60:1 says, "The spirit of the Lord is upon me..." Did Isaiah bring down the Holy Spirit upon himself (self-proclaimed righteousness) or did it come down upon him, being sent by the Lord, in truth as it is in John 3:8 that says, "the wind bloweth whether it listeth (is sent), and thou hearest the sound thereof but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth, so is everyone that is born of the spirit." Isaiah witnessed that this happened to him therefore Christ witnessed of him that he WAS ALREADY born of the spirit (REGENERATED) or he could not have been a true witness as seen in Isaiah 43:10.
Isaiah is also witnesses in Isaiah 60:1 to the purpose of the Holy Spirit and life of Christ in him, "because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings (gospel of the kingdom) unto the meek, he hath sent me to bind up the broken hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound vs 2 to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord and day of vengeance of our God, to comfort all that mourn vs 3 to appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness, that they might be called TREES OF RIGHTEOUSNESS (at that time), the planting of the Lord (1 Corinthians 12:18), that he might be glorified. How can that which is "self proclaimed righteous" speak to this kind of regeneration?
Isaiah 60:1 says, "The spirit of the Lord is upon me..." Did Isaiah bring down the Holy Spirit upon himself (self-proclaimed righteousness) or did it come down upon him, being sent by the Lord, in truth as it is in John 3:8 that says, "the wind bloweth whether it listeth (is sent), and thou hearest the sound thereof but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth, so is everyone that is born of the spirit." Isaiah witnessed that this happened to him therefore Christ witnessed of him that he WAS ALREADY born of the spirit (REGENERATED) or he could not have been a true witness as seen in Isaiah 43:10.
Isaiah is also witnesses in Isaiah 60:1 to the purpose of the Holy Spirit and life of Christ in him, "because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings (gospel of the kingdom) unto the meek, he hath sent me to bind up the broken hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound vs 2 to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord and day of vengeance of our God, to comfort all that mourn vs 3 to appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness, that they might be called TREES OF RIGHTEOUSNESS (at that time), the planting of the Lord (1 Corinthians 12:18), that he might be glorified. How can that which is "self proclaimed righteous" speak to this kind of regeneration?
unprofitable
Active Member
YOUR exact words in YOUR post #1.
Since you said it, what did you mean if not what you said,
Please enlighten me.
Thank you
Since you said it, what did you mean if not what you said,
Please enlighten me.
Thank you
Some view that people who gained approval through faith under the Old Covenant, were fully justified by the "promised" blood of Christ. Their faith "looked forward" to Christ. In order for the [snip] doctrine advocates to force their [doctrine] doctrines into scripture they must resort to redefining words (i.e. draw always means compel rather than attract by lovingkindness.) They [misinterpret] scripture, Matthew 23:13 does not really say that men who were entering the kingdom were blocked. No that cannot be true because it demonstrates their mistaken doctrine [snip]. But the most egregious misuse of scripture is to ignore the given sequence, and claim the opposite sequence occurred. They put the cart before the horse again and again. How? By the use of time travel. Folks can be washed by the blood of Christ before Christ died. As ludicrous as this view is, they put it forth again and again, as if repeating an obvious falsehood somehow makes it less of a falsehood.
Abraham had as James would say, "live faith" rather than dead faith. From his faith flowed works, such as offering up Isaac.
Now the bone of contention is whether we should use the term "justified" when OT saints gain approval through "live faith." Or, the alternate view, should we reserve the term "justified" to only refer to those washed by the shed (past tense) blood of Christ. This alternate view is the one I advocate. I believe where we see translations use the term justified for OT Saints, that the translation should read "acted righteously" or "self proclaimed righteousness" Thus we do not use the term "justified" to mean two very different things, which creates confusion.
Let us look at a few:
Job 40:8
“Will you really nullify My judgment?
Will you condemn Me so that you may be justified?" Here "you may proclaim yourself righteous" better presents the actions of the person the Lord is questioning.
Isa 45:25
“In the LORD all the offspring of Israel
Will be justified and will boast.” Here since the justification is future, justified seems valid.
We know that everyone enrolled in heaven has been, past tense, made perfect, Hebrews 12:23. And we know no one entered heaven before Christ came from heaven, John 3:13.
Thus the time travel theology of claiming the OT saints were regenerated before Christ was put to death is unbiblical No one's name was written in the Lamb's book of life until after the founding of humanity, Revelation 13:8.
Abraham had as James would say, "live faith" rather than dead faith. From his faith flowed works, such as offering up Isaac.
Now the bone of contention is whether we should use the term "justified" when OT saints gain approval through "live faith." Or, the alternate view, should we reserve the term "justified" to only refer to those washed by the shed (past tense) blood of Christ. This alternate view is the one I advocate. I believe where we see translations use the term justified for OT Saints, that the translation should read "acted righteously" or "self proclaimed righteousness" Thus we do not use the term "justified" to mean two very different things, which creates confusion.
Let us look at a few:
Job 40:8
“Will you really nullify My judgment?
Will you condemn Me so that you may be justified?" Here "you may proclaim yourself righteous" better presents the actions of the person the Lord is questioning.
Isa 45:25
“In the LORD all the offspring of Israel
Will be justified and will boast.” Here since the justification is future, justified seems valid.
We know that everyone enrolled in heaven has been, past tense, made perfect, Hebrews 12:23. And we know no one entered heaven before Christ came from heaven, John 3:13.
Thus the time travel theology of claiming the OT saints were regenerated before Christ was put to death is unbiblical No one's name was written in the Lamb's book of life until after the founding of humanity, Revelation 13:8.
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unprofitable
Active Member
You have not answered my last four posts but it may be as you have said before that it was not worth your time. Please rebut my all my posts as you also have said you have done in the past.
To act righteously and proclaim self-righteousness is as different as day and night. To act righteously is something that the prophets did by the life of Christ in them. They did not proclaim self-righteousness in any form. We find in 1 Peter 1:11Searching what or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ that was in them did signify when it testified beforehand the suffering of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Whose righeousness and spirit caused them to witness (Isaiah 43:10) righteously?
Isaiah 59:21 tells us, "As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the Lord, My Spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I HAVE PUT in thy mouth, will not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of thy seed's seed, henceforth and forever. Isaiah and the remnant of his time fully understood that the old Covenant was types and shadows pointing toward Christ and the work of his hands. They understood the first and great commandment spoken of Christ and kept it, being enabled by the Spirit (Isa 59:21) in them.
unprofitable
Active Member
continued-
Abraham was convinced fully as were the remnant of saints in the old Covenant. Romans 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised he was able to perform. How could any of the Old Covenant saints have both the life of Christ and guidance of the Holy Spirit in them and not be justified? Did they still bear their sins until Christ was resurrected?
When I read your posts, I get the impression that you are saying the Old Covenant saints were not made righteous or holy during their life time. Had you lived in during that time, would you have declared your self proclaimed righteousness? David says in Psalms 40:10 I have not THY righteousness within my heart, I have declared THY faithfulness and THY salvation (death, burial, resurrection); I have not concealed thy lovingkindness and thy truth from the great congregation. No self-proclamation found here.
Job 40:8 God is condemning Job's self righteousness, not justifying him.
Isaiah 45:25 This statement include all the saints from Adam until now. You cannot understand it and must make it a future event because you cannot see the kingdom of God as an everlasting kingdom, (Psalms 145:13) including the scriptural local visible assembly.
Abraham was convinced fully as were the remnant of saints in the old Covenant. Romans 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised he was able to perform. How could any of the Old Covenant saints have both the life of Christ and guidance of the Holy Spirit in them and not be justified? Did they still bear their sins until Christ was resurrected?
When I read your posts, I get the impression that you are saying the Old Covenant saints were not made righteous or holy during their life time. Had you lived in during that time, would you have declared your self proclaimed righteousness? David says in Psalms 40:10 I have not THY righteousness within my heart, I have declared THY faithfulness and THY salvation (death, burial, resurrection); I have not concealed thy lovingkindness and thy truth from the great congregation. No self-proclamation found here.
Job 40:8 God is condemning Job's self righteousness, not justifying him.
Isaiah 45:25 This statement include all the saints from Adam until now. You cannot understand it and must make it a future event because you cannot see the kingdom of God as an everlasting kingdom, (Psalms 145:13) including the scriptural local visible assembly.
More fictional claims, still without biblical support.
Does any vers say the OT saints acted righteously because they were sealed in Christ? Nope, that is pure fiction. 1 Peter 1:11 refers to obtaining from the Spirit of Christ inspiring them with prophetic messages, information concerning the promised Messiah. Yes, "en" is commonly translated as "in" or "within" but "by" or "with" also might be used.
unprofitable
Active Member
I have given you multiple posts that you have not responded to. I can only assume you have no answer.
I will also say you are quick to generously shout bogus, fictional, and other adjectives against other's posts but when they respond you say they are not addressing the post but attacking you. Do not provoke others, then run and hide by saying they are not addressing the post, after you have done so. To do so is hypocritical.
Did the Lord accept Cain's offering or use him to prophesy of Christ. No, he used Able because he had the life of Christ and the knowledge and word of the covenant in him (Isa 59:21). He, like Abraham, already had the imputed righteousness of Christ in him. As another topic is debating the all things in the time of their fulfilment, these Old Testament brethren were lacking nothing. (1 Kings 8:56)
I will also say you are quick to generously shout bogus, fictional, and other adjectives against other's posts but when they respond you say they are not addressing the post but attacking you. Do not provoke others, then run and hide by saying they are not addressing the post, after you have done so. To do so is hypocritical.
Did the Lord accept Cain's offering or use him to prophesy of Christ. No, he used Able because he had the life of Christ and the knowledge and word of the covenant in him (Isa 59:21). He, like Abraham, already had the imputed righteousness of Christ in him. As another topic is debating the all things in the time of their fulfilment, these Old Testament brethren were lacking nothing. (1 Kings 8:56)
