Timothy Keller: Only Elderly Pastors should Write Books?!

[Havensdad]

That is a great idea EWF.

II Kings 12:8

8 But Rehoboam rejected the advice the elders gave him and consulted the young men who had grown up with him and were serving him.

1Ti 6:3 If anyone teaches a different doctrine and does not agree with the sound words of our Lord Jesus Christ and the teaching that accords with godliness,
1Ti 6:4 he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions,
1Ti 6:5 and constant friction among people who are depraved in mind and deprived of the truth, imagining that godliness is a means of gain.

 

[JonC]

And a lot of brilliant authors, with something important to say, may now be going, "You know what, my hero Tim Keller said I should wait."

This illustrates my point. A brilliant author would consider the opinion of other’s (opinions - like Paul’s opinion regarding marriage, his ‘humanistic advice’) but this wouldn’t be the determining factor. If the opinions of others are their determining factor, then they are not “brilliant” authors as they follow men over God. Insofar as I can determine, Keller didn’t equate writing as a sin for these folk.

The “Angry Pastor’s” blog is divisive and mistaken in principle. If he wants to call all human advice wrong and humanistic, then where he should have started was taking on Paul’s advice regarding the advantages of singleness as this is EXACTLY what Paul does in his letter to Corinth. If the “pastor” successfully demonstrates that Paul was wrong and humanistic for offering advice which is from him rather than a command of God, then he can move on to restrict others from voicing opinions beyond quoting or drawing from Scripture. Perhaps he could start a movement to have those few passages removed from the Biblical text.

And a book takes exactly as much time as you want it to.

How do you know??? Is this conclusion based on Scripture or humanistic reasoning and/or experience? I’ve never written a book, but what I have written always seems to take much longer than I wanted it to, involve much more research than I desired, and take more time away from my family than I intended.

I believe in the doctrine of sufficiency. Scripture is sufficient for instructing a pastor on what he should and should not be doing.

Out of curiosity, where does Scripture state that pastors of local churches are to go beyond this role and write books to the Church or world in general?

 

[quantumfaith]

Well, my "buddy" Luke was wrong. Keller continually drops the ball. I am so tired of people giving others a pass (not saying that this is what Luke is doing; I don't know), just because they are "on our side."

I'm quite sure Keller is not interested in talking with me.

I would wager that on this you are probably correct, but hey "nothing ventured nothing gained" Sorry for using any form of humanistic reasoning....not.

 

[Havensdad]

This illustrates my point. A brilliant author would consider the opinion of other’s (opinions - like Paul’s opinion regarding marriage, his ‘humanistic advice’) but this wouldn’t be the determining factor. If the opinions of others are their determining factor, then they are not “brilliant” authors as they follow men over God. Insofar as I can determine, Keller didn’t equate writing as a sin for these folk.

No, he just spoke authoritatively.

The “Angry Pastor’s” blog is divisive and mistaken in principle. If he wants to call all human advice wrong and humanistic, then where he should have started was taking on Paul’s advice regarding the advantages of singleness as this is EXACTLY what Paul does in his letter to Corinth. If the “pastor” successfully demonstrates that Paul was wrong and humanistic for offering advice which is from him rather than a command of God, then he can move on to restrict others from voicing opinions beyond quoting or drawing from Scripture. Perhaps he could start a movement to have those few passages removed from the Biblical text.

What Paul wrote was inspired by the Holy Spirit. So by definition, it was not humanistic.

How do you know??? Is this conclusion based on Scripture or humanistic reasoning and/or experience? I’ve never written a book, but what I have written always seems to take much longer than I wanted it to, involve much more research than I desired, and take more time away from my family than I intended.

Writing is writing. See this sentence? I could write one of these every day, and put them in a book, a few years from now.

Out of curiosity, where does Scripture state that pastors of local churches are to go beyond this role and write books to the Church or world in general?

2Ti 4:1 I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who is to judge the living and the dead, and by his appearing and his kingdom:
2Ti 4:2 preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, and exhort, with complete patience and teaching.


Now, where does it say, "Except outside the local church?" Do you see that? It just says proclaim the truth (preach) whenever and however you can(in season and out of season).

 

[JonC]

Writing is writing. See this sentence? I could write one of these every day, and put them in a book, a few years from now.

Yea...I think that I've read some books from authors who have done this. :laugh: They should have matured a bit more before taking on the task.

What Paul wrote was inspired by the Holy Spirit. So by definition, it was not humanistic.

In 1 Cor 7:12, Paul begins by saying “I, not the Lord, say…” and later “I have no command of the Lord, but I give an opinion …,” etc. I think it reasonable to conclude that Paul is expressing his personal opinion in these passages. BTW, I am thankful that many Christians since that time decided to marry rather than follow Paul’s advice. Although...sometimes being married helps one fully appreciate Paul's point........:smilewinkgrin:

I do understand what you are saying, however, and I'd have the same view if I understood his comment to be an exercise of pastoral authority stating that it is wrong and unbiblical for young pastors to write books. But instead I believe this to be experiential advice from a pastor who has written books and intended to be taken as such, so I disagree.

 

[Havensdad]

Yea...I think that I've read some books from authors who have done this. :laugh: They should have matured a bit more before taking on the task.

No one makes a person buy a book. You buys the book, you takes your chances.

In 1 Cor 7:12, Paul begins by saying “I, not the Lord, say…” and later “I have no command of the Lord, but I give an opinion …,” etc. I think it reasonable to conclude that Paul is expressing his personal opinion in these passages. BTW, I am thankful that many Christians since that time decided to marry rather than follow Paul’s advice.

Paul said that in his historical context. However, as it was included in scripture, it ceased being merely Paul's opinion. The point here, is that it is not a requirement, but a consideration. Much like the Book of Proverbs, this is stating a piece of Godly, Holy Spirit inspired wisdom that is not binding upon people as a command.

I do understand what you are saying, however, and I'd have the same view if I understood his comment to be an exercise of pastoral authority stating that it is wrong and unbiblical for young pastors to write books. But instead I believe this to be experiential advice from a pastor who has written books and intended to be taken as such, so I disagree.

Even pastoral wisdom should come from scripture, when it regards ministry. The scriptures speak in large volume about who should be teaching, and what considerations there are regarding ministry. You just gave an excellent example of this, with Paul's writings.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Well, my "buddy" Luke was wrong. Keller continually drops the ball. I am so tired of people giving others a pass (not saying that this is what Luke is doing; I don't know), just because they are "on our side."

I'm quite sure Keller is not interested in talking with me.

But brother, you dont know for sure. Man he is influential & he is situated in an area where he influences many many people. To me though, he isnt a Baptist so I dont bother much with him. But if he is an influential figure, then you owe it to human kind to at least try to have dialog with him. Who knows, he might respond....nothing ventured.

 

[JonC]

No one makes a person buy a book. You buys the book, you takes your chances.

Buying a book is like a box of chocolates….

While I disagree, I understand your concern.

I disagree with several of Keller’s doctrines, but I have to say that I agree with him a majority of the time. I hold to a more literal view of interpretation so I disagree with his view of covenant theology, an allegorical picture of Genesis 1, etc…and perhaps it is also this view that prohibits me from taking Paul’s words in a manner other than is stated - as advice. But…c'est la vie…we just don’t agree here.

 

[Havensdad]

Buying a book is like a box of chocolates….

While I disagree, I understand your concern.

I disagree with several of Keller’s doctrines, but I have to say that I agree with him a majority of the time. I hold to a more literal view of interpretation so I disagree with his view of covenant theology, an allegorical picture of Genesis 1, etc…and perhaps it is also this view that prohibits me from taking Paul’s words in a manner other than is stated - as advice. But…c'est la vie…we just don’t agree here.

I agree it is a advise. Holy Spirit inspired advice.

 

[JonC]

I agree it is a advise. Holy Spirit inspired advice.

Hey....I just realized that this was your blog (I didn't scroll to the right or I'd have noticed it earlier. I'm getting slower as I get older). We shared a class at Liberty several years ago.

 

[Havensdad]

Hey....I just realized that this was your blog (I didn't scroll to the right or I'd have noticed it earlier. I'm getting slower as I get older). We shared a class at Liberty several years ago.

Oh, yeah! I vaguely remember. Though I cannot remember what class it was. My memory is horrible these days.

Sometimes I think the gray in my beard is the part of my brain that controls memories leaving my head...

 

[JonC]

[FONT=&quot]

Oh, yeah! I vaguely remember. Though I cannot remember what class it was. My memory is horrible these days.

Sometimes I think the gray in my beard is the part of my brain that controls memories leaving my head...

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I don’t remember which class…but you have a cool name – so I remembered that right off the bat :thumbsup: .
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I guess this is how I took Keller’s comments: I do not believe that we have remained stagnant over the past decade, and I believe that our writings and theological understanding reflects a certain amount of maturity and growth. Even if someone views my current level of maturity and writing as poor, I can guarantee it is reflective of spiritual growth and maturity when compared to my past. I am sometimes astounded at essays I have written…say seven years ago. Some are good, but some are awful and do not reflect views I currently hold. If I were to have written a book seven years ago there is a good chance that I would have rejected its thesis today (even though the book would have represented passionately held views at that time). I needed time to reflect on my own views, steep in God’s Word, and gain experience. There are some here on the BB who have blogs out there that do not reflect what they now argue. I have been a member of the BB for over a decade, and I know that there are some posts here that reflect what I now consider to be misunderstanding. Imagine if this were a book still in print influencing others to believe what I now view as error. Lastly, I do believe that it is a biblical principle to rely on the wisdom of our elders, and I think that this transcends into the realm of spiritual maturity.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]But, this is my interpretation of Keller’s words and I may be misunderstanding his intent.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]As far as the gray hair thing – I commented to my barber that he needed to clean his clippers better because there was a bunch of gray hair on the floor when he was finished with me. I’m sure getting old has its advantages…but I can’t remember what they would be.
[/FONT]

 

[Revmitchell]

Too many young guys are getting PHD's and then writing books as if they know something. Until and only until they have had some time and experience in the ministry do they have any business writing books as if they have something to say. David Platt is one of them. (regardless of his theological persuasion) But he is a good example.

 

[Havensdad]

Too many young guys are getting PHD's and then writing books as if they know something. Until and only until they have had some time and experience in the ministry do they have any business writing books as if they have something to say. David Platt is one of them. (regardless of his theological persuasion) But he is a good example.

Then they shouldn't be in the ministry either. If you cannot write a book, you have absolutely no business teaching from the pulpit, either.

If you understand scripture, you know something. I like David Platt, I like his books, and I think he is teaching scripture. A person's 'experience' means exactly nothing. What matters is if what they have written is biblically accurate.

 

[Crabtownboy]

I have a good friend who said he wrote a book when he was young. Now he says he is so thankful that no one would publish it. There is wisdom in waiting.

 

[Havensdad]

I have a good friend who said he wrote a book when he was young. Now he says he is so thankful that no one would publish it. There is wisdom in waiting.

Oh yeah, that verse where Jesus said that when there is something that needs to be addressed in the church at large, pastors and elders should just be quiet. and let the problem fester for 25 years, until they are older.

Where is that at again? 2nd Imaginations? (Obvious sarcasm)

Cause you know, all of the apostles shut up, and didn't write or speak about a topic...cause, you know, they had to figure it out through experience first.

Secular humanistic reasoning. Knowledge comes through the scripture, empowered and guided by the (very old...eternal, in fact) Holy Spirit.

No age required.

 

[Crabtownboy]

Oh yeah, that verse where Jesus said that when there is something that needs to be addressed in the church at large, pastors and elders should just be quiet. and let the problem fester for 25 years, until they are older.

Apples and onion logic you have there fellow. One is a current set of problems. Problems need to be addressed now.

Writing a book with real wisdom and understanding is quite another thing. Wisdom and deep understanding comes only with experience, knowledge and prayer ... and for some even not then.

 

[go2church]

Does it not depend on what the author is writing about?

 

[Havensdad]

Apples and onion logic you have there fellow. One is a current set of problems. Problems need to be addressed now.

Big problems need to be addressed now in a book form.

Writing a book with real wisdom and understanding is quite another thing. Wisdom and deep understanding comes only with experience, knowledge and prayer ... and for some even not then.

Wisdom comes from God through the Word of God. Plenty of people have "experience" and not a shred of wisdom.

 

[Havensdad]

Does it not depend on what the author is writing about?

Yes! If you are writing about a non-theological topic (for instance, the best way to rebuild an engine), experience counts. But with that, there is not an objective, written criteria by which to compare what is written.

With theology and ministry, truth is truth, and can be measured by comparing it to scripture.