Tipping your Pastor or Teacher

[Artimaeus]

Tips = To Insure Prompt Service

If your "tips" in any way (intentionally or not) modify service rendered then that man is not the man for the job. If you want to show appreciation in a financial manner then do so annonymously. He gets the same benefit and there is no possibility of undue influence.

 

[Hardsheller]

Latter,

You stay right where you are. Since you say you are from the USA - You could live right down the road from me and if you left your current church you might come to mine!

You don't live right down the road from me do you?

You're not a member of my church are you?

 

[Xingyi Warrior]

If your "tips" in any way (intentionally or not) modify service rendered then that man is not the man for the job. If you want to show appreciation in a financial manner then do so annonymously. He gets the same benefit and there is no possibility of undue influence.

I have to agree with you there. I truly believe that most pastors are undrepaid for what they do as are many people in society who's business is to serve others. I belive that they should be compensated duly for what thay do. One local Church provides the pastor with only a meager salary, but they let him live in a parsonage near the church free of cost and cover his families insurance expenses. His wife works as a nurse and provides the family with an adequate income above that. Teachers are also not paid well but they do get paid a salary. Servers do not and they $2.13 hourly they recieve from the business is gobbled up by taxes - they never see it. Also while I support that teachers should be paid more, I have less sympathy for them when they complain about money. Teaching, law enforcement etc.. have been for nearly half a century regarded as low paying fields. I went to school and sat in classes alongside educational majors and none of them had delusions of grandeur about their profession. Many go in for different reasons - some for the retirement, others for the option of having their summers off, and still others because they want to make a difference. And some were there because they had failed to make the cut in their original chosen field and took an easier route. Education is not an academically difficult track in universities. Teachers generally choose - pastors are generally called. Teachers sign a contract to work for a specific wage whereas servers must bust their tails to be a cut above the rest in order to get compensation and often fall short due to peoples stinginess. Also after consideration I generally think its a bad idea to extend this practice of the service industry into the ministries one, because of the afforementioned influeces of money, and secondly as discussed in another thread as Christians are stereotyped by servers as bad tippers, would a pastor really want a portion of his take home based on the "generosity" of such people.

 

[latterrain77]

Hi USN2Pulpit. Thank you for your reply. I think you misread me better than you read me.

You said; "You seem to be insulted in my use of the term "disgruntled." The word in itself does not imply a negative on your part. It simply means that you are dissatisfied." Actually, the word "disgruntled" has sharper teeth than the word "dissatisfied." Comparing the two words is like saying a french poodle and a pit bull are the same because they are both canines.

You said; "I will say that the sarcasm at the end of your posts betrays the warm salutations given at the beginning of your posts." The warm salutations were 100% sincere. I'm sorry that you took my closing statement as sarcasm. It was intended to be more like "resignation." As I said above, you misread me better than you read me. Thanks USN2pulpit. latterrain77

 

[latterrain77]

Hi Xingyi Warrior. Thank you for comments. I appreciate it. You said; " If you are in a situation where you have no respect for that pastor then you just need to find a different church." Yes, I also lean heavily towards this option. As it stands, I have one leg out of the door already. Once the other leg follows, I will not look back (Luke 17: 32).

You said; "Most pastors I have known have been very good people who put the Lords work before their own needs." Thank GOD for pastors such as this. For me, many of the pastors I have met were really good folk (though NOT most). A larger number were just "lukewarm" highly forgetable types. All things being equal, not bad odds! Thank you again for your comments XW. I appreciate it.

latterrain77

 

[latterrain77]

Hi hardsheller. Thank you for your comments. You said; "You stay right where you are. Since you say you are from the USA - You could live right down the road from me and if you left your current church you might come to mine!" Man Hardsheller! Are all the other Christians in your church as welcoming as you? Or is outreach just your special calling?

latterrain77

 

[USN2Pulpit]

Originally posted by latterrain77:
...you misread me better than you read me.

Then I apologize and will attempt a graceful exit from this thread...an internet BBS can be a confusing place to attempt communication. It may be true that I'm just not getting you. Perhaps if we were face to face, I'd get a better read on what you're trying to say.

In any case, I think this thread (unintentionally) got hijacked, as is the fate of so many others. Sorry Dr. Bob.

 

[janji]

You said; "Why are you on a public forum putting down your own pastor?" I responded to a question posed by Bob. If an honest question can be asked on the BaptistBoard then it is a question that can be answered HONESTLY on the BaptistBoard. I suppose that a truthful answer is more desirable than rank and file parroting. Furthermore, he is NOT my pastor. He is the congregation's pastor.

Could you perhaps have answered honestly without all the details? Like, maybe indicate you would want to make sure the pastor was DOING his job before considering a kind gesture to him. This way you would have refrained from accusations in a forum. Since you insist on being biblical, which all of us I am sure would commend and strive for, and please, correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the bible directs us to go to the offending brother, and if no results, then with another brother confront the offender. Maybe you did that, did you? Good thing you don't consider the pastor "almighty", (see your quote below) so there shouldn't be a problem with any of that, right?

You said; "If you're that unhappy with him leave." In a sense, I have. Yet, I'm a very active participant in the Bible study group (more below). Since I'm not a Roman Catholic, I do not believe that the pastor is "almighty" in the church. The church is defined by it's PEOPLE not it's pastor. If a pastor is flawed, it does not necessarily mean that it's members must leave. It may mean that the pastor should leave. Nevertheless, I'm mindful of your good advice Gina and I will carefully consider it.

Yeah, that's the way I've always heard it, the offending, unrepentant pastor must go, if that is the case, doesn't anyone else in your church seem to share your opinions?

You said; "If you're there to change things, gossiping is a bad way to start." Not at all. Responding to questions honestly is not gossip. Additionally, I'm not there to change things. I'm there to study the Bible and fellowship with other believers (Heb. 10:25) - something this pastor has little interest in as he has never attended the Bible study group - NOT ONCE. In my former church, the pastor not only attended every Bible study group, but he directed the Bible study group too. He was also paid less than HALF of what this pastor makes and he worked twenty times harder.

Just makes me more puzzled why the rest of the believers don't share your convictions, or have all chosen not to do anything about it.

You said; "It's disgusting when people can defend dirt with their last dying breath and last drop of blood but an ounce of loyalty to a fellow Christian and chosen (chosen obviously by YOU if you're there!) spiritual leader can't be found." If your disgusted then change the channel Gina. I defend what I believe the Bible teaches. It's not dirt either. One woman's dirt is another man's GOLD. Loyalty is not a one way street. Furthermore, a pastor is not necessarily "chosen" by GOD as you seem to think. There are many pastors who are NOT chosen. Some of them leave the ministry and pursue other interests (thankfully), while others just linger and linger. Passing exams in "divinity school" is hardly the requisite for being "chosen by GOD." The requisite for the office of the pastor can be found in 1 Tim. 3 (it's a very specific list). Fortunately, there are MANY wonderful pastors who are truly men of GOD as per 1 Tim. 3. I thank GOD for these ones and that I've had the great pleasure to fellowship with some of them.

Lastly, I did NOT choose this pastor. He was chosen by a committee elected to do the choosing. I did not elect that committee either (it is made up of entrenched members of many years). When that committee asked for my non-binding opinion, I gave it honestly. They hired him anyway. My hands are clean. Thanks! latterrain77 [/QB]

Your hands are clean. So were the Pharisees.

 

[Pastor Larry]

I think tips are appropriate in addition to regular compensation. I do belive a pastor should be well paid and should deserve it. The Bible instructs that those who preach the gospel are to live of the gospel. Later in Gal 6, Paul instructs that "The one who is taught the word is to share all good things with the one who teaches him." There is your biblical basis for "tipping." As pastor, I have been blessed enough to have some great tippers in my congregation. I could not begin to list all the things I have received but a sample would be
clothes [thousands of dollars worth over the last few years];
meats and other food [helps big on the grocery bill--it is rare that my wife buys meat at the store]
books
Rounds of golf at nice courses
Car repairs
Meals -- My wife and I get taken out on average of once every couple of weeks
I even received a couple of vacations

These things are a great blessing to a pastor as I can testify to. They are things that we never would have had otherwise. Take good care of your pastor. Whether you have personal affection for him or not, he is God's man for that church until he moves on.

 

[latterrain77]

Hi Janji. You said; "Your hands are clean. So were the Pharisees." And David's (Psa. 18: 20) and Job's (Job 17: 9), etc. My clean hands are in GREAT company and Biblically applauded (Job 17: 9, Psa. 18: 24, 2 Sam. 22: 21, James 4: 8).

Should we conclude from your statement that you are opposed to a Christian having "clean hands?" If so, then please explain such a view in light of the verses mentioned above. Also, are you opposing GOD's command in James 4:8 for a believer to have CLEAN HANDS? Thanks! latterrain77

 

[Jeffrey H]

And others believe that MANY of them are grossly overrated. latterrain77

Latterrain77:

You must have a very lazy pastor. If so, I feel for you and your church. However, most hard-working pastors are not appreciated and under-paid.

You are not required to like your pastor or be buddies with him. You are required to honor him as the under-shepherd of your church. Yes, even if you perceive him as lazy.

 

[blackbird]

I've been pastoring now for 15 years! Its in my blood! Preaching is what I do best and love every minute of it! Most preacher buddies of mine cringe at the thought of having 2 or three morning services--but I'd love it--imagine preaching 3 times Sunday morning--loving every second of it and then get to preach again that nite??!! Man, that would be glory for me!

Tips?? Sure does beat a sorry anonomous letter spewin' with hatred for the pastor--calling on him to resign and threatening him with a "Deacon's meeting" to ask for him to be fired! I'll hold my hand out for a tip any day of the year if I had a choice between that and a dumb anonmous letter.

I receive a bonus for Christmas--as well as all the other service people--I now receive 3 weeks vacation time/year--3 weeks off for conventions, conferences, pastor's schools, etc. to hone my preaching skills, etc. I take the three weeks vacation--sometimes I take the three weeks for conventions and stuff--but not always!

I work on an average of 50-60 hours a week--Monday through Sunday--time is divided between things I do during the day--like study and stuff--and things I do at nite--like committee meetings, visits, youth bible studies and the like!

Some one commented to the late great Dr. R G Lee, "Preacher, you wouldn't preach if you didn't get paid for it!" to which the great oritor replied, "That's a lie!!"

If I never got another dime for preachin', I'd preach! If I never got another red penny for doing another wedding(sometimes I don't get nothin' for um)--I'd still do um! If the family chooses not to pay me to "funeral-ize" their PaPa--I'd still funeral-ize PaPa!

So, Tips? I ain't gonna lie! I'd snatch it out of your hand in a New York minute! Then there's no tellin' what I'd choose to do with it---put it in the collection plate as it passes me by--or mail it to the Baptist Children's Village for orphan's school supplies---or carry my precious wife out to dinner! Yes, Sir Ree! I'll take it! If you buy me a trip to the Holy Land or someplace like that--I'll take plenty of pictures and show um to ya when I get home!!!!!!!

No tips??? You choose not to tip me?? That's fine! I'll keep pluggin' along! You won't mean nothin' less in my mind if that is your choosin'!

Your Southern Baptist buddy,
Blackbird

 

[Alcott]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:

"The one who is taught the word is to share all good things with the one who teaches him." There is your biblical basis for "tipping."

Well, you're honest-- at least on this board-- as to what your idea of "good things" is.

As pastor, I have been blessed enough to have some great tippers in my congregation. I could not begin to list all the things I have received but a sample would be
clothes [thousands of dollars worth over the last few years];
meats and other food [helps big on the grocery bill--it is rare that my wife buys meat at the store]
books
Rounds of golf at nice courses
Car repairs...

I would presume you are a lot friendlier with those give these things than you are with those in the congregation with whom you have seldom/never had a conversation beyond "How are you?..have a nice day." And you likely get more calls and suggestions and disguised requests fromt these same givers of "good things.'

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Alcott:
Well, you're honest-- at least on this board-- as to what your idea of "good things" is.

I am honest on all boards, so I do not know what you are trying to imply by this. The text says what it says. It is in the context of bearing one another's burdens and sowing and reaping and doing good for all men, especially those of the household of faith. 1 Cor 9:11 makes the same point: If we sowed spiritual things in you, is it too much if we reap material things from you?

I would presume you are a lot friendlier with those give these things than you are with those in the congregation with whom you have seldom/never had a conversation beyond "How are you?..have a nice day." And you likely get more calls and suggestions and disguised requests fromt these same givers of "good things.'

You would wrong in such a presumption. The people who have done these kind of things for me would be embarrassed if anyone else knew and have expressly told me that. Many of them have been anonymous. They have never asked for any special treatment or consideration of any kind and I have never shown them any. In fact, when it first started I was quite uncomfortable with it. But one person reminded me of 1 Thess 5:12-13 where they are to appreciate and esteem highly those who have charge over them, who labor among them.

Your presumptions are dead wrong and unfortunate. You should at least grant that some pastors do have integrity in this area. If I never got another thing from someone, it would make no difference to me.

 

[Alcott]

Originally posted by blackbird:
Some one commented to the late great Dr. R G Lee, "Preacher, you wouldn't preach if you didn't get paid for it!" to which the great oritor replied, "That's a lie!!"

I admire those who admire that sentiment. I used to preach weekly without getting paid. But there does seem to be an aversion to those who aren't seeking to be paid; that they're not "real" preachers. I suppose that makes Kenneth Copeland, Robert Tilton, and Benny Hinn 'real' preachers.

It can probably be concluded from my earlier posts here that I don't exactly take to those pastors/preachers who think they are some kind of privileged class. I might see this topic a bit differently if I knew these same pastors give generous tips to their barbers, newspaper carriers, dental hygenists, et al. But-- going by some of the posts here, as well as my own observations-- more likely they pick out a barber from their congregation who will cut their hair for little or nothing; and then perhaps if they do tip, they will say they tip the barber, with the disguised suggestion of looking for tips themselves; omitting, of course, that there was no charge for the haircut in the first place.

 

[USN2Pulpit]

Alcott, I'm not sure who you think you are, but you must consider yourself very important indeed to make such an accusatory statement like you did, particularly to someone you don't really know. Someone who speaks out like that with such a strong accusation exhibits the symptoms of bitterness. Perhaps you've had a bad experience with not being a pastor's favorite member.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Alcott:
But there does seem to be an aversion to those who aren't seeking to be paid; that they're not "real" preachers.

Perhaps you would care to back up your assertion by showing these aversions. If anything, the ones who get paid and get "tips" are the ones being looked down on. For evidence, see your last accusatory post to me.

It can probably be concluded from my earlier posts here that I don't exactly take to those pastors/preachers who think they are some kind of privileged class.

I don't take kindly to those kinds either. But I have seen no one here who promotes that. I think we all would react with dislike for that type of person.

 

[Alcott]

Alcott, I'm not sure who you think you are, but you must consider yourself very important indeed to make such an accusatory statement like you did, particularly to someone you don't really know.

And how well do you know me, to "make such an accusatory statement?

Someone who speaks out like that with such a strong accusation exhibits the symptoms of bitterness. Perhaps you've had a bad experience with not being a pastor's favorite member.

Our current pastor has been here 4 years and I don't know him personally, and don't want to. And I don't thnk you intended to, but you backed up one thing I said-- you evidently do know there are some who really want the pastor's attention and that is one [perhaps 'the'] reason behind some of these 'tips.'

 

[latterrain77]

Hi jeffreyH. Thank you for your thoughts. I appreciate it. You said; "You are not required to like your pastor or be buddies with him. You are required to honor him as the under-shepherd of your church. Yes, even if you perceive him as lazy." I hear you jeffrey, and I agree about the "buddies" part. However, I feel that it is unbiblical to honor a lazy sluggard (Prov. 26: 16, Prov. 20: 4) simply because he wraps himself in the title "pastor" (or doctor, or nurse, or plumber, or whatever).

Honor is something that is earned. To give someone honor simply because of his "title" is elitist. The Bible tells us to avoid elitism (James 2: 1-4, James 2: 9). Can fake elitist "honor" ever be real and isn't it just pretentious?

Finally, it is not dishonoring to a man when we offer him constructive criticism or express dissatisfaction relating to his work; provided that we do it honestly and with compassion. The fact that some pastors have a convulsive reaction to such criticism reveals the weakness of their constitution and exposes their inner sense that they are "above" the laity (i.e. how dare you criticize my ministry!). Furthermore, that reaction also reveals their unfitness for the office of pastor as per 1 Tim. 3: 2-3. Thankfully Jeffery, there are MANY great pastors who serve as per the 1 Tim. 3 standard. I not only applaud them, I HONOR them too! Thank you again for your input jeffreyH. I appreciate it.

latterrain77

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Alcott:
...you evidently do know there are some who really want the pastor's attention and that is one [perhaps 'the'] reason behind some of these 'tips.'

Why must you assume the worst about people's motives?? Have you ever done anything for someone simply to be a blessing to them and an encouragement? If you have, then you can understand why some people might do something for their pastor (in addition to being obedient to Scripture). If you haven't, then you are living in sin and need to repent and start doing things simply to be a blessing to people.

I have been study Titus 3:2 today in preparation for Sunday where it says we are to malign no one. It means to not speak evil of them. You have spoken evil of people you do not even know, having accused them of ulterior motives, both for giving "tips" and for receiving them. Paul's point is Titus 3 is that that is a characteristic of the unbeliever and he says in v. 3 that believers also used to be that way until God saved us. Evil speaking, condemning others motives without proper knowledge is inconsistent with the life that you are to be living as a believer. That passage does not condemn proper comments about the true state of a person. It condemns the critical attitude that is not based on facts.

It is inconceivable that you would not like to get to know your pastor personally. It sounds like you have some serious issues that need to be worked through. You do not sound as if you are a healthy, functioning member of that church. That is simply the appearance that you are giving from the words you are saying here. I hope you will work through these issues biblically. Study the role of the pastor and the way that the church members are to treat him.