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Tithing for All
- Thread starter SpiritualMadMan
- Start date
Romans 13:
8: Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9: For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10: Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
notice this is in present tense
8: Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9: For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10: Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
notice this is in present tense
spiritualmadman
its like you took half the gospel message and stopped right in the middle of it and never went on to the second half
1Jn:2:29: If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.
1Jn:3:7: Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn:3:10: In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
1Jn:3:8: He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
its like you took half the gospel message and stopped right in the middle of it and never went on to the second half
1Jn:2:29: If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.
1Jn:3:7: Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn:3:10: In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
1Jn:3:8: He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Tithing is mention in Genesis - prior to the law - Genesis 14:18-20, "And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God. And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth: And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all."
The tenth is a good place to start in your giving to the Lord.
The tenth is a good place to start in your giving to the Lord.
SpiritualMadMan
New Member
Bob,
I disagree that James is calling "The Law" a Law of Liberty... I think, if anything the Sentence Structure more easily supports that the Law of Liberty is also the Royal Law and that is the Law of Love which is a superset of The Law and the Prophets...
It is plain that Paul, here, is talking about those that would try to enslave Christians with "The Law"...
Galatains 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
Here Paul is plainly saying that "The Law" brings Bondage... _Not_ Liberty...
Claudia, "The Law" can _Not_ make anyone Righteous
Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Romans 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Dan,
Yes Tithing predates "The Law"...
But, consider the differences in Abrahams Tithe by Faith and "The Law"s Tithe by Regulation, and the way "The Tithe" is taught in most churches...
First, Abraham tithed *after* the Victory out of the Joy and Abundance of his heart...
He did not tithe to avoid a curse...
Not, did he tithe to gain anything... Afterall he had already gained what he wanted *before* he tithed...
Second, there is no record of his having ever tithed before or after...
Third, he only tithed of the Spoils... There is no record that he went back home and collected all he had and tithed on it...
I continue to be amazed that people who fight tooth and nail for Grace over and against the Law quickly attach "The Law" and it's attitude when it comes to money...
I agree with Dan that ideally a tenth is a good place to start a life dedicated to giving to God...
But, when we make it a "Have To" we leave Grace behind and bind ourselves once more to keeping every iota of "The Law".
Act 15:10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear?
Ephesians 2:15 by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace,
I disagree that James is calling "The Law" a Law of Liberty... I think, if anything the Sentence Structure more easily supports that the Law of Liberty is also the Royal Law and that is the Law of Love which is a superset of The Law and the Prophets...
It is plain that Paul, here, is talking about those that would try to enslave Christians with "The Law"...
Galatains 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
Here Paul is plainly saying that "The Law" brings Bondage... _Not_ Liberty...
Claudia, "The Law" can _Not_ make anyone Righteous
Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Romans 4:6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
Dan,
Yes Tithing predates "The Law"...
But, consider the differences in Abrahams Tithe by Faith and "The Law"s Tithe by Regulation, and the way "The Tithe" is taught in most churches...
First, Abraham tithed *after* the Victory out of the Joy and Abundance of his heart...
He did not tithe to avoid a curse...
Not, did he tithe to gain anything... Afterall he had already gained what he wanted *before* he tithed...
Second, there is no record of his having ever tithed before or after...
Third, he only tithed of the Spoils... There is no record that he went back home and collected all he had and tithed on it...
I continue to be amazed that people who fight tooth and nail for Grace over and against the Law quickly attach "The Law" and it's attitude when it comes to money...
I agree with Dan that ideally a tenth is a good place to start a life dedicated to giving to God...
But, when we make it a "Have To" we leave Grace behind and bind ourselves once more to keeping every iota of "The Law".
Act 15:10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear?
Ephesians 2:15 by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace,
One thing I find odd is that when discussing "tithing," we never really quote the Bible's definition for it. Oh, sure, Malachi 3 talks about what those who didn't tithe back then would receive (but I agree with SpiritualMadMan-- Christ became a curse on our behalf so we would not have any), but I did not see anyone define just what the "tithe" is using Scripture. The word "tithe" just means "tenth" and used alone in that sense does not refer to any type of giving-- you might as well just say "decimal point" or "ten's place."
If you go back in the Law of Moses, you will see that the tithing which is listed DOES NOT...can I say it again? DOES NOT...refer to giving money. It was always giving one tenth from the produce of the land; crops, herds, etc. It was never income. It wasn't even seafood-- a fisherman did not have to give 1/10 of his fish catch to the Levites, nor did the laborer have to give 1/10 of his earnings. Only a land-owner or a herdsman were under this stipulation, because they had received their blessing from the land which was promised (Which simultaneously answers the question as to why Jesus said the Pharisees should tithe FROM THEIR HERBS. Not with money).
Tithing is not almsgiving, and you will never find a biblical definition saying so. The only time money came into the picture was when you could not bring your tithe (a head of cattle or several bushels of crops) to "where God had ordained," then you could sell your tithe-- you could not sell money-- and that the gold or silver from selling your tithe, go to the place where God designated (eventually, was Jerusalem at the Temple), buy whatever you want (meat, wine, etc), and then consume it before the LORD.
As for the 'firstfruits' thing, look it up and you will see it was a one-time offering. When you first bought a field, the first fruits belonged to God. That was it. And remembering that money does not grow on trees, it was produce and vegetation, not cold hard cash.
Why did Jesus, under the Law, not pay tithes from His money (He was a carpenter at one point, after all)? Why did Peter, James, John, or Andrew not tithe from their paycheck? Because it's not biblical.
And then we go back to Abraham, who "tithed" to Melchizedek. One thing to point out is that this was not a religious thing; it was a dispensing of stuff that Abraham did not want. Abraham was not a nomadic warrior chief; He did not engage in tribal warfare very often; He did not even keep the other 90% of the spoils. The other 90% went to the king of Soddom. So Abraham did not "tithe from his increase"; in his mind, it was never his to begin with. And since Abraham nor anyone else did this before or after in the whole of Scripture, it is hardly the foundation on which to base the fundamental teaching that "tithing" is said to be.
But what is it we are to do? GIVE. "Freely you have received and freely shall you give." There was no statistical system of giving in the early church; they simply met needs as they were encountered. Of course, the deacons (sadly, not what "deacon" often is today) were set up in order to better fascilitate this giving. Now, just because "tithing" is effective does not mean that it is correct. If one thinks they are tithing from their paycheck and give to God from their heart, then that is known in the NT as "generousity," not "tithing." God blesses GENEROUSITY. And I submit that a truly generous believer is blessed with more fulfillment, peace, joy, and happiness than the most faithful "tither."
Blessings,
SpyHunter
If you go back in the Law of Moses, you will see that the tithing which is listed DOES NOT...can I say it again? DOES NOT...refer to giving money. It was always giving one tenth from the produce of the land; crops, herds, etc. It was never income. It wasn't even seafood-- a fisherman did not have to give 1/10 of his fish catch to the Levites, nor did the laborer have to give 1/10 of his earnings. Only a land-owner or a herdsman were under this stipulation, because they had received their blessing from the land which was promised (Which simultaneously answers the question as to why Jesus said the Pharisees should tithe FROM THEIR HERBS. Not with money).
Tithing is not almsgiving, and you will never find a biblical definition saying so. The only time money came into the picture was when you could not bring your tithe (a head of cattle or several bushels of crops) to "where God had ordained," then you could sell your tithe-- you could not sell money-- and that the gold or silver from selling your tithe, go to the place where God designated (eventually, was Jerusalem at the Temple), buy whatever you want (meat, wine, etc), and then consume it before the LORD.
As for the 'firstfruits' thing, look it up and you will see it was a one-time offering. When you first bought a field, the first fruits belonged to God. That was it. And remembering that money does not grow on trees, it was produce and vegetation, not cold hard cash.
Why did Jesus, under the Law, not pay tithes from His money (He was a carpenter at one point, after all)? Why did Peter, James, John, or Andrew not tithe from their paycheck? Because it's not biblical.
And then we go back to Abraham, who "tithed" to Melchizedek. One thing to point out is that this was not a religious thing; it was a dispensing of stuff that Abraham did not want. Abraham was not a nomadic warrior chief; He did not engage in tribal warfare very often; He did not even keep the other 90% of the spoils. The other 90% went to the king of Soddom. So Abraham did not "tithe from his increase"; in his mind, it was never his to begin with. And since Abraham nor anyone else did this before or after in the whole of Scripture, it is hardly the foundation on which to base the fundamental teaching that "tithing" is said to be.
But what is it we are to do? GIVE. "Freely you have received and freely shall you give." There was no statistical system of giving in the early church; they simply met needs as they were encountered. Of course, the deacons (sadly, not what "deacon" often is today) were set up in order to better fascilitate this giving. Now, just because "tithing" is effective does not mean that it is correct. If one thinks they are tithing from their paycheck and give to God from their heart, then that is known in the NT as "generousity," not "tithing." God blesses GENEROUSITY. And I submit that a truly generous believer is blessed with more fulfillment, peace, joy, and happiness than the most faithful "tither."
Blessings,
SpyHunter
KellyWhite
New Member
I'll repeat what I said in the other tithing thread........
If I didn't tithe whatever amount I could afford, I would feel that I was treaspassing everytime I walked into the church.
If a person is not willing to financially or support their church by other means (charity work,etc.), then they need to stay home and watch church services on TV.
If I didn't tithe whatever amount I could afford, I would feel that I was treaspassing everytime I walked into the church.
If a person is not willing to financially or support their church by other means (charity work,etc.), then they need to stay home and watch church services on TV.
I agree, Kelly. I was not advocating laziness, greed, or any other type of self-referential things. Generousity is anything but self-centered, and it is generousity which I was explaining is the TRUE biblical mandate, as far as finances go.
Biblical tithing could only be validly applied today to farmers, ranchers, and gardeners. Beyond that, there is no objective scriptural basis. Should you choose to base the giving of your finances in support of your church-- a very good point to highlight, Kelly!-- on a system of 10% of your income, then praise God. But it is "your" system, not the Bible's. May God bless you according to the measure of your inward generousity.
Blessings,
SpyHunter
Biblical tithing could only be validly applied today to farmers, ranchers, and gardeners. Beyond that, there is no objective scriptural basis. Should you choose to base the giving of your finances in support of your church-- a very good point to highlight, Kelly!-- on a system of 10% of your income, then praise God. But it is "your" system, not the Bible's. May God bless you according to the measure of your inward generousity.
Blessings,
SpyHunter
SpiritualMadMan
New Member
Kelly, I agree with the "not willing" part...Originally posted by KellyWhite:
I'll repeat what I said in the other tithing thread........
If I didn't tithe whatever amount I could afford, I would feel that I was treaspassing everytime I walked into the church.
If a person is not willing to financially or support their church by other means (charity work,etc.), then they need to stay home and watch church services on TV.
I have reservations, though, about feeling I've trespassed if i don't give...
Of course if it's the Holy Spirit convicting me of a parsimonius spirit... Then I deserve to feel ashamed...
But, if I am being brought into condemnation because of a faulting teaching or understanding of God's Grace that is another matter entirely...
One of the hardest things for a person brought up like I was... Is to accept the fact that people *can* Tithe in Faith...
That just because a person Tithes does not mean they are under "The Law"...
Mike Sr.