TITHING, OH MY

Tazman,

I don't have time right now. But if you read those 4 articles in the links that JGrubbs gave, he addresses the issue if the "tithes" with Abraham and Jacob. I don't have time right now to address the specific points you make, and I'd just be repeating what they said, so here's a segment of one of those links on tithing before the law:

In this passage we are told that Abraham gave a tithe to Melchizedek, presumably as an expression of gratitude to God for enabling him to rescue his nephew Lot who had been taken captive. Those who believe that tithing is binding upon New Testament believers argue that since tithing was practiced before the Mosaic Law was given, it must also be practiced after the Mosaic Law (which has been made obsolete by the establishment of the New Covenant by the sacrifice of Christ) (Heb. 8:13). Before we come to any hard and fast conclusions, however, let's take a closer look at the text and make some pointed observations.

1 - There is no evidence in this text that tithing was commanded by God.
In fact, everything in the text leads us to believe that giving this tithe was completely Abraham's decision and choice. As such, it was completely voluntary. (FA - IOW, the tithe was not a command prior to the law, and hence it should not be a command for the NT Christian, who is not under the Law.)
2 - As we will see a little later in our study, tithing under the Law was not voluntary at all, but mandatory upon all God's people.
Furthermore,
3 - this is the only tithe mentioned in Scripture that Abraham ever gave.
We have no evidence that this was his general practice.
In addition,
4 - this tithe came from the spoils of victory that Abraham acquired by military might.
As we shall note later in our study, the tithe required under the Mosaic Law was the increase of crops, fruit, and herds to be given on an annual basis -- not the spoils of a military victory!


Jacob:

Jacob, in this passage, is making a vow in response to a visitation of God to him in a dream. In the dream Jacob saw a ladder reaching to heaven with the angels of God ascending and descending on it. In the dream God stood above the ladder and said to Jacob, "I am the Lord, the God of your father Abraham and the God of Isaac; the land on which you lie, I will give it to you and to your descendants. Your descendants shall also be like the dust of the earth, and you shall spread out to the west and to the east and to the north and to the south; and in you and in your descendants shall all the families of the earth be blessed. And behold, I am with you, and will keep you wherever you go, and will bring you back to this land; for I will not leave you until I have done what I have promised you" (vs.13-15). God promised Jacob that He would be with him, and keep him wherever he would go and bring him back to this land.

1 - In response, Jacob vowed that if God kept his promise, he in turn would give God a tenth. (FA - IOW, it was not a response to a command, but a voluntary decision by Jacob. Under the Law, the tithe is commanded as due God.)

Again, we must observe exactly what the text does and does not say.
2 - Nowhere are we told that God commanded Jacob to give Him a tithe.
Again, along with Abraham's example, it appears that the giving of this tithe was voluntary on Jacob's part. Also,
3 - there is no evidence in the text to suggest that tithing was the general practice of Jacob's life.
If he did in fact begin to tithe after God fulfilled His promises to him, Jacob still delayed tithing for 20 years!


These two examples are the only examples of tithing to be found in the Old Testament before the Law was given.
1 - Both were examples of voluntary giving, and neither was required by God.
2 - In neither personage do we see an example of tithing as a general practice of life.
In fact, in Abraham's life it appears that we have a tithe of the spoils of military victory given to God's priest on a one time only basis. If our only evidence to obligate believers under the New Covenant to tithe rests on these two passages in Genesis, it seems to me that we are resting on pretty shaky ground!</font>[/QUOTE]I have formatted and italicized and emboldened some portions of this segment from that article IOT make his points more clear.

Thx,

FA

 

Just give the most you can and then some sacraficially. You don't need to make a chart!

 

The Lord (Jesus) has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel. This is true according to Matthew 10:10

Paul seem clear here to say it is Gods command and expectation to take care of his servants.
</font>[/QUOTE]Tazman,

That the NT tells the believer to support those who are ministering in their lives (never actually referred to as the church or the local body, FWIW) I posted earlier, using this same text. I included Galatians 6:6 - which says that those who are taught the Word should share all good things with those who teach them.

Agreed there.

Here's the problem: tithing is not the same as "giving." In the Levitical Law, they were comamnded to give 10%. In the NT they are to give voluntarily. We find absolutely no commands outside of the Law about tithing. The issue is not giving - it's tithing. Let's get our theology from the NT, and then go back to the OT to see how it relates. But we need to start where the Lord has taught the NT believers how to give.

I am not opposed to believers supporting their local body. (You may be confusing me with someone else posting here.)

I am opposed to:
1 - Calling it a command for the NT believer to tithe.
1 - Focusing on the command to give 10% instead of what the NT says - to give as each person has made up his mind - voluntarily.
3 - Saying that we must give 10% to the local church first, then give above and beyond that to other ministries, if you desire
4 - Calling it "robbing God" based on Malachi 3:8ff which was specifically referring to being the tihe of crops into the sotrehouses - to the Levitical sacrifice system.

But I agree that it is proper for those ministering in a local body to expect that local body to support them. It is biblical. Got no problem there. And we should be generous about it. In Matthew it says that where our treasure is, there will our heart be also. So when we support a ministry - a church - our heart gets involved.

My problem is making it a legalistic, Law-based thing.

We are not under the Law.

Thx,

FA

 

Here is the best site I have come across to study whether or not Tithing is for Christians. The author even posts here sometimes!

http://www.shouldthechurchteachtithing.com/

 

So many churches have taught tithing as a requirement for so many years, it is hard for people to accept that tithing is not for N.T. Christians even when it is pointed out by scripture.

It is interesting that the SBC Faith and Message does not include tithing even though it has a paragraph on stewardship. That should tell people something.

 

#1. Jesus did address it "Do not think that I have come to abolish my Law" Matt 6.

#2. Jesus Words are primarily recorded in His "pre-cross" Life. A life where NOTHING had been nailed to the cross!! Those who "imagine" that Christ abolished whatever He did not resurrect from His Word - are imagining doctrine.

#3. There is NO Bible text declaring of God's Word "Whatever is not repeated is assumed deleted". Those who seek out such mythical justification for ignoring His Word should rethink their position.

#4. Christ spoke explicitly to tithe when He said that the Religious leaders WERE tithing but they were ALSO ignoring the greater matters of the Law regarding love for one another. He say "you SHOULD be doing the first AND also not neglecting the second"

 

Matthew 23:23
" Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.

Luke 11:42
" But woe to you Pharisees! For you pay tithe of mint and rue and every kind of garden herb, and yet disregard justice and the love of God; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.

 

Why would believers want to get back under law? Remember the Judiasers Paul had to continually fight against?
We give as the Lord lays on our hearts. Sometimes it comes to less than your requirements and often more, but it is certainly from our hearts. Our particular church is blessed with cheerful givers, which allows us to support youth mission projects and missionaries, and sometimes simple humanitarian needs.

 

#1 The Jews did not write the Bible - God did.

#2. Tithing is not something Jews "made up" nor is it something that started at Sinai as can be seen in the case of Abraham.

#3. Christ said "this you SHOULD do without leaving the rest undone"

#4. Christ said "THINK NOT that I came to ABOLISH My Laws - My Word"

You can not use the argument "To obey God is to deny the Gospel" as you seem to be trying in your statement above. It does not work.

 

Good point.

To be more specific "the Mosaic LAW says" that we should "LOVE our neighbor as ourselves" Lev 19:18 and we should "LOVE GOD with all of our heart" Deut 6:5.

Now in our current need to "abolish the Word" when it comes to God's instruction in the OT - what shall we do about these commands of God - pre-cross to Love God and to Love our Neighbor?

 

And communion.

Most everything else seem to be clearification of the old covenant statutes.

I think most evangelicals need to astablish a non bias heart toward Gods word and His people. </font>[/QUOTE]Taz,

Since God is a God of love, and since the Old Covenant can be summed up according to Jesus as "love your neighbor as yourself" and "love God," that is not surprising. Nevertheless, we are not under the Law, and the tithe is a commandment of the Levitical Law. We are instead to give as we have made up our minds... The tithe under the law was a command, and to not give that tithe fully was to "rob God." But that is not how the NT teaches on giving.

IMO if we start by looking at the NT and then try to see how the OT relates to it, we're probably not going to be far apart in our understandings in this area. But when we start with the Law and then try to figure out how to squeeze the teaching of grace in... well, that just doesn't work.

FA

 

For so many years, churches have implied that if you don't believe in tithing, that you don't beliieve in giving. Of course, this is not true. It is hard for those under this influence for so long, to accept that christians should give cheerfully and not by requirement.

The N.T. teaches for christians to give cheerfully in accordance with what they can afford. Those who can give 30% should give it, and those who can only give 3% should give that. It should be given cheerfully, and not because a church requires it.

Of course christians should give to support ministers and the church. Some posts here imply that if you don't "tithe", you are not supporting the church. It is hard for some to accept "giving only" after years of misguided teaching.

We need to separate the two issues of tithing and giving. Tithing is by requirement. Giving is done freely and cheerfully. Many churches have tied these two together for so long, that people have trouble separating them. Tithing is required under the O.T. law; Giving freely and cheerfully is encouraged under grace.

 

Amen. That's precisely the point. Pastors have no right to take the Law and tell their people that to not obey the Law is to rob God. We are not commanded to give, and it must be done cheerfully. Giving in the NT is expressed as a challenge to see how God will bless us as we step out in faith. And we are certainly not commanded to tithe.

Thx,

FA