Tithing Question

No, it is not. This, of course, represented a system of support for many workers in a complex sacrificial religious system within an agrarian society. These workers did not have their own lands, so they were supported by the people they represented. The messages of Malachi 3 were collectively to the people, and the 'blessings' if they remained faithful in their tithes and offerings were for a good year for their crops and livestock. There was no division of church and state, so tithes & offerings and taxes were essentially the same thing.

But if this explanation is not satisfactory, then actually do what the Malachi passage says-- test God in this. If you assume the results, that is not a genuine test. But carefully evaluate and graph your income and your overall financial balance and do a test of relationship between the 2-- IF what you believe is that this passage guarantees financial 'blessings' if you are faithful in tithes and offerings. That is how it is taught by many churches.

I did such testing years ago and deliberately began to increase giving, only to watch the correaltion coefficient drop further and further, meaning the test of hypothesis fails. The conclusion is that this principle is not applicable to New Covenant Christians as so many churches teach it.

 

Murphy, don't you understand that these tithes you are refering to are produce. Do you bring tomatoes, grapes or corn to church in order to fulfill this passage?

This reference in the OT does not have anything to do with the NT church. This is simply another OT verse that pastors like to pull out of context to cause church members to give more money.

 

Cynic I feel that your test was not done in faith without which it is impossible to please God. In Luke 6:38 Jesus said give and it shall be given unto you. Does not He also say whatsoever a man soes he will also reap.Let's look at the malachi passage a little closer.
6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
The last book of the O.T. says I am the Lord I change not, He never changes and I for one will continue to trust this promise. I am sorry that God did not meet Cynics standards but I will accept the word of God and the restimonies of many saits over a few cynics.

10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.
As you guys have pointed out this was not all about money but I do believe that it is about necessities, God can do exceedingly abundantly and above all we ask or think.
11 And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the LORD of hosts.I am not a farmer but as i have given faithfully to God I have seen Him rebuke many devourers for my sake not get money but in health and peace and happiness. God is good all the time.


Fellow posters let me make this very clear I understand that all the promises made the Jews are not given to us but we can benefit and learn from the principles taught. On this particular passage I feel that the promise is adequately covered in the New testament. Most of all I will not allow the truths of the scripture to be questioned on this forum and I will not allow them to be made light of. I suggest that this line of reasoning end.
Murph

 

Murph,
So what are you saying that Christians are commanded to give 10%?
Or are you saying be genourous and give what's in your heart.
Could you please explain exactly what you are talking about?
Thanks.

 

Cynic I feel that your test was not done in faith without which it is impossible to please God.

With faith there is no need for such a test. And God's command to test HIM obviously assumes those who had 'robbed' Him did not have faith. That was the whole point to the 5th century Jews.

So now, if in this day and age someone claims that same Malachi passage as appplicable to NT Christians in the same way, then we are the ones being addressed in the statement, "Test me in this." A test cannot be 'fixed' aforetimes or it is no test. And remember what God further said: "And see if I will NOT open the windows of heaven and pour out a blessing..." So then-- we can do that 'and see if He will not do so.' *See*-- not assume.

If you insist on claiming we 'act in faith' and assume the 'blessings' even if we cannot see them-- that invalidates the passage as having any application to us.

 

Murphy said,

"Most of all I will not allow the truths of the scripture to be questioned on this forum and I will not allow them to be made light of. I suggest that this line of reasoning end."

Gee, I thought the point of having a baptist board was to discuss scripturial issues and offer viewpoints.

Am I to understand Murphy that if anything is posted that you feel is "making light" of your interperation of scripture it will not be tolerated?

Do you suggest that we send you our posts via email and have you ok them before they are posted?

 

If under the law, the kingdoms, the theocracy under which Israel lived, the people gave the tithe, how much more ought we to give under Grace?

If we believe in the local church, then I think that is where our offerings should go. One can always give directions as to where the money is spent.

If I were a treasurer of a church, I would want safeguards built-in to protect my integrity regarding the funds, than wait a whole year only to discover misappropriation of funds. There is nothing wrong with a treasurer working under the guidance of a deacon.

Cheers,

Jim

 

Cynic, if I understand what you posted correctly, then I'd say your "test" failed because you were looking, as you indicated, for financial rewards.

No pastor I know of preaches "tithe so God can make you richer," and I don't think Murphy was trying to say this.

We have a strange system in the military: We like to cut programs because we can't show the fiscal benefits. For instance, leasing computers. All we tend to see is the bottom line: How much we're paying for leasing computers. The thing that doesn't get looked at is the intangibles. Such as, in a system where we don't have a standard across the base and everyone controls their own purchasing of computer systems, the time wasted having to run back to your office to save your briefing for the general as a previous version of PowerPoint because the place you were going to show it doesn't have the same version you do.

The "intangibles" of tithing is what I've always taken to understand what is meant by "blessings." Such as, when I give $1 in tithing to a church, and that dollar is used to support a missionary, who then gives a bible or a tract to someone on the other side of the world who subsequently accepts Christ as their savior.

Some might argue that that's the giving principle. In which case, I'd give you another example: The $1 I tithed goes to help pay the electricity bill of the church I attend, which keeps the heat going, which then allows a wayward stranger to get warm one evening, hear the Word, and get saved. Or it's used to help subsidize a teen affair, where one of the teens brings a friend, who gets to hear the message and gets saved.

Intangibles. Blessings.

Give or tithe, but preferably both.

My two cents on the subject.

[ December 08, 2002, 10:42 PM: Message edited by: Don ]

 

Cynic, if I understand what you posted correctly, then I'd say your "test" failed because you were looking, as you indicated, for financial rewards.

Not "looking for...financial rewards ," but having heard that exact thing taught and preached, I was actually putting it to a test from the passage such claims are based upon.

No pastor I know of preaches "tithe so God can make you richer,"

That is exactly what I have heard preached before. The word "richer" has been used in regard to this; but more often it is stated as a facsimile of: "If you are having trouble making ends meet, be sure your first priority is your tithe, then God will cause the rest of your income to go futher on 90% than you thought it possible to go on 100." That is as close as I can remember to verbatum from some guy who did this "The Bible and Finances" seminar.

The "intangibles" of tithing is what I've always taken to understand what is meant by "blessings."

That is obviously not what the guy I was just writing about meant. Nor is it the subject of the Malachi 3 passage, which is almost always cited in this topic. If the Israelites were blessed with a bumper crop such that the storehouse was not large enough, that is not at all "intangible."

 

Make up your mind Pete. If it is a tithe it goes to the church. If it is going anywhere else it is genuine Christian giving and a good thing but you can't call it a tithe. I don't believe tithing is scriptural and feel you are free to give as you see fit. Tithing does not eqal giving and offerings do not equal tithing.

 

I agree with you. I don't usually call it tithing either. I am into giving and I agree with Jim1999 that if we were to commanded to give 10% under law, how much more should we give under grace. I am not in leadership at my local church and have no practical way to compell them to send large amounts of money to friends who live at least 2000 miles away and some of whom are missionarries in other countries. I do not believe the NT teaches to "tithe" 10% to the local church, but to give generously to all who are in need, and I usually find the local church to be the best vehicle for that. Even so, if someone in America is only giving 10%, I suggest they are not giving as generiously as they could.

 

Cynic are you or are you not saying that God will not bless a cheerful giver with both the tangible and intangible? by the way I feel that where God's blessings are concerned they are all tangible we just don't see what He is doing clearly enough.
Murph

[ December 11, 2002, 12:06 AM: Message edited by: C.S. Murphy ]

 

I do contend there is no guarantee of either. But specifically I was following up on the precise subject of this thread, tithing, and how I have proved we should not expect 'blessing' from doing this.

 

Abraham gave his tithe to Melchizedek. Gen. 14:17-20. It also refered in Psalms. 110, and in Hebrews 5:7.

In Matt. 23:23; Luke 11:42

Jesus raises the issue of tithing with the Scribes and the Pharisees. His concerns were for us to not be so percise in the Law, judgement, mercy and faith, but be more to the Leading of men to Jesus Christ.

In this era men were very good tithers. And they were so percise. Such as mint. The tearing off 1/10 of a mint plant and tithing that to the priest seemed rather rediculous.

When you become more percise in matters of what the law is and make that the issue, you forget what the law is for.

And bringing men to the Lord Jesus Christ is what is more important.

Sherrie

 

I have seen you give the 'impression' that tithe is "keeping with the law"-->

Malachi tells us to bring all the tithe into the storehouse and I feel the new testament directs us to be under the authority of a local church.

Then you cited the expanded Malachi 3 passage which includes "there will not be enough room to receive [the blessing]" (v. 10). Then you switch to this tangible/intangible thing, and in either case it is not found to be true that "there shall not be enough room to receive it."

So the "impression that their tithe was in keeping with the law" was herein given by yourself.

 

Well on that note Murph...all I can say is when I tithe I am saying Father God I trust you are taking care of me; and you take good care of me. I am surely blessed more than anyone I know. For I have the loveliest children to my heart, and I am well taken care of with a roof over my head, and my bills paid.

You surely have blessed me above all blessing when You gave me your Son. You Lord feed me and provide my every need. Therefore; You also have trusted me to give this tithe where it is needed. I know Father all my needs are fullfiled by you, so I give this tithe in your name Lord Jesus. That the Father would receive all the Glory, honor and praise.

Sherrie

[ December 13, 2002, 12:24 AM: Message edited by: Sherrie ]

 

cynic you sir are as usual incorrect and as usual exibiting a character that befits your handle.
Murph

 

Thanx for the compliment on the second part of your sentence, but you did either make the statements I copied from your posts, or else you allowed someone else to post under your name.

 

Is Cynic the permatroll on this board, or what? (Nothing substantiative to say on this issue that hasn't already been said, by the way).