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tithing??? Should we?
- Thread starter JeffM
- Start date
Not really. Why does a church need a mortgage for an overpriced building, or a building fund, or programs for every concievable group of people? Seems to me that the church got by without those things for hundreds of years and still impacted the world more than we do today. IMO, the church needs to reduce overhead - not simply plead for more money.
Twade,
Thanks for the links you provided.
The second one was very interesting because it talked about income taxes.
Though I believe in taxation, I oppose the income tax for several reasons. I believe that America was a direct gift from God as a nation for Christianity.
The Founders, most of which were devout Christians, contrary to what is taught today, set up a government based on Christian principles.
The income tax was not apart of that orginal convenenant with God (Declaration of Independence and Constitution). In fact, the income tax (a direct tax) is forbidden in Article I, Section 9, Clause 4.
The founders only allowed Congress to collect indirect taxes through excise, duties and tariffs.
The income tax (illegally ratified in 1913) is infact, the Second Plank of the Communist Manifesto. Communism of course is completely opposed to God in every aspect.
The income tax was in my opinion the very thing that began to rob America of it's Christianity.
It immediately took the act of charity from the churches and made a sick, unGodly system out of it. In stead of the government having limited powers, remaining a servant to the people, it made it God-like and forceful master, where it demands dependence and worship. It literally has replaced God. In many instances, the lazy are rewarded, and the hardworkers are penalized. Again, this is opposite of God's system.
The income tax has also made a system out of coveting. Making someone pay their fair share based on their property (wages are property) does nothing but breed contempt and envy. If someone doesn't pay their fair share, we get mad, especially if they have more than us, and demand justice. We want some of what they have.
The income tax is also a system of theft. It is nothing more than a government sanctioned extortion racket. George Washington once said "The government has no more a right to stick its hand in my pocket, than I do to stick my hand in my neighbors pocket". Wise words indeed.
Could you or I get away with with demanding 20 or 30% of someones proeperty without committing a crime? Nope.
One of the governments jobs under the Constitution is to protect the property of the citizens. Confiscating a pre-detirmined amount, by threat, is not protecting property, it is stealing it. Americans only pay an income tax because they are forced to and live in fear of going to jail and having their property taken from them.
This is not how America was set up in our Republican form of government. Our liberty, just like our Salvation, was already paid for in blood. The blood of thousands of Patriots who died in open fields, muzzle to muzzle against a formadable enemy. To me, I see this only as a gift from God.
The church has been tricked into supporting this system. I can't tell you how many times I hear a Pastor defend the income tax with the verse "Pay unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and pay unto God, what is God's".
This may have been the case in Jesus's day when the world was under the heel of Rome, but America was not founded that way, and the government is not Caesar! It is the servant, and it says so in the Constitution, which is the Supreme Law of the land.
The founders set up a system of government where the people are the masters. The government was given certain but very limted powers. The power of taxation was one of them, but as I said, this power of taxation was limited to excise, tariffs and duties. Before 1913, the government had no power to tax the income of the American citizen. It was one of the most important links in the checks and balances system.
Just look what the income tax has brought us. We have a Federal Government that has become drunk with power and doing things it shouldn't be allowed to do. It has meddled in other countries affairs which George Washington warned against in his farewell speech.
The government has taken on a Roman Empire attitude and I know we are going to pay dearly for it in the coming years.
Jeff
Thanks for the links you provided.
The second one was very interesting because it talked about income taxes.
Though I believe in taxation, I oppose the income tax for several reasons. I believe that America was a direct gift from God as a nation for Christianity.
The Founders, most of which were devout Christians, contrary to what is taught today, set up a government based on Christian principles.
The income tax was not apart of that orginal convenenant with God (Declaration of Independence and Constitution). In fact, the income tax (a direct tax) is forbidden in Article I, Section 9, Clause 4.
The founders only allowed Congress to collect indirect taxes through excise, duties and tariffs.
The income tax (illegally ratified in 1913) is infact, the Second Plank of the Communist Manifesto. Communism of course is completely opposed to God in every aspect.
The income tax was in my opinion the very thing that began to rob America of it's Christianity.
It immediately took the act of charity from the churches and made a sick, unGodly system out of it. In stead of the government having limited powers, remaining a servant to the people, it made it God-like and forceful master, where it demands dependence and worship. It literally has replaced God. In many instances, the lazy are rewarded, and the hardworkers are penalized. Again, this is opposite of God's system.
The income tax has also made a system out of coveting. Making someone pay their fair share based on their property (wages are property) does nothing but breed contempt and envy. If someone doesn't pay their fair share, we get mad, especially if they have more than us, and demand justice. We want some of what they have.
The income tax is also a system of theft. It is nothing more than a government sanctioned extortion racket. George Washington once said "The government has no more a right to stick its hand in my pocket, than I do to stick my hand in my neighbors pocket". Wise words indeed.
Could you or I get away with with demanding 20 or 30% of someones proeperty without committing a crime? Nope.
One of the governments jobs under the Constitution is to protect the property of the citizens. Confiscating a pre-detirmined amount, by threat, is not protecting property, it is stealing it. Americans only pay an income tax because they are forced to and live in fear of going to jail and having their property taken from them.
This is not how America was set up in our Republican form of government. Our liberty, just like our Salvation, was already paid for in blood. The blood of thousands of Patriots who died in open fields, muzzle to muzzle against a formadable enemy. To me, I see this only as a gift from God.
The church has been tricked into supporting this system. I can't tell you how many times I hear a Pastor defend the income tax with the verse "Pay unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and pay unto God, what is God's".
This may have been the case in Jesus's day when the world was under the heel of Rome, but America was not founded that way, and the government is not Caesar! It is the servant, and it says so in the Constitution, which is the Supreme Law of the land.
The founders set up a system of government where the people are the masters. The government was given certain but very limted powers. The power of taxation was one of them, but as I said, this power of taxation was limited to excise, tariffs and duties. Before 1913, the government had no power to tax the income of the American citizen. It was one of the most important links in the checks and balances system.
Just look what the income tax has brought us. We have a Federal Government that has become drunk with power and doing things it shouldn't be allowed to do. It has meddled in other countries affairs which George Washington warned against in his farewell speech.
The government has taken on a Roman Empire attitude and I know we are going to pay dearly for it in the coming years.
Jeff
And it's quite likely the pastor (or anyone else) who says that believes the part we pay 'to God' (?) should be deducted from the base of which that is calculated to be paid to 'Caesar;' but the part due to Caesar should not be deducted from the base of which 'to God' is calculated. IOW, base your percentage on gross instead of net in regard to what will be given to the church, but deduct that part from the gross of what will be paid to "Caesar."
Investing your money in the efforts of the Church is not a bad idea. Whether you give out of your abundance or your need, it should be a sacrifice, since giving is a declaration of our dependance on God.
Nowhere in the NT is the tithe taught. And in the OT, the tithe was more than 10%, more like 40, but you have to remember, they were also supporting the government with that money, being a theocracy.
There is no specific commmands regarding amount, but we are commanded to give, to pay for the physical needs of the body, and to allow for promoting the name and cause of Christ.
The prosperity gospel is a dangerous thing, and many times it is not the charasmatic televangelists who are guilty of preaching it, but supposedly fundamental baptist churches. Saying that God will financially bless you for your giving as a tactic of leveraging more dollars in the plate is a misunderstanding of scripture. God takes care of our needs if we truly trust in him, and giving is part of that trust. Giving is investing money in the future kingdom really, and may not be physically advantageous in this life. God may not choose to make you wealthy because you give 75% of your income to the church.
You can be certain, that offerings given sacrificially and joyfully to the church, that are being used to further the name of Christ, will bring spiritual abundance at the very least, now and in the future.
Nowhere in the NT is the tithe taught. And in the OT, the tithe was more than 10%, more like 40, but you have to remember, they were also supporting the government with that money, being a theocracy.
There is no specific commmands regarding amount, but we are commanded to give, to pay for the physical needs of the body, and to allow for promoting the name and cause of Christ.
The prosperity gospel is a dangerous thing, and many times it is not the charasmatic televangelists who are guilty of preaching it, but supposedly fundamental baptist churches. Saying that God will financially bless you for your giving as a tactic of leveraging more dollars in the plate is a misunderstanding of scripture. God takes care of our needs if we truly trust in him, and giving is part of that trust. Giving is investing money in the future kingdom really, and may not be physically advantageous in this life. God may not choose to make you wealthy because you give 75% of your income to the church.
You can be certain, that offerings given sacrificially and joyfully to the church, that are being used to further the name of Christ, will bring spiritual abundance at the very least, now and in the future.
Jailminister
New Member
In the New Testament Jesus tells us we are suppose to tithe.
I think it's presumptuous to assume that church buildings are overpriced, or that programs for "every conceivable group of people" are unnecessary. Part of the church's job is to minister to the needs of its body of believers and to the community. But hey, if you don't think it's important for my church to mave a ministry that feeds, clothes, and houses hundreds of people a year, (despite the fact that Jesus says whatsoever we do to the least of his brethren, we do also to him), or similar programs, well, that's your right.
Daniel David
New Member
You know, in debate forums, people rarely let you get away with hit-and-run posts without Scriptural support. Um, this is one of those times.
Jesus told those UNDER THE LAW that they should be tithing. Why? Because they were commanded under the law to tithe. The New Covenant didn't happen until the cross.
Jailminister
New Member
Daniel David, So your contention is that tithing is part of the ceremonial law.
Daniel David
New Member
My contention is part of the Law. There is no such thing as a ceremonial law. It was all given under moses' administration. Moses was only a servant in the house. It is better to live under the administration of the Son of the house.
Hey, if you want to follow the servant, you have to KEEP THE WHOLE LAW.
Since I know you are thinking it, realize that Abraham tithed off his spoils, not his goods.
Hey, if you want to follow the servant, you have to KEEP THE WHOLE LAW.
Since I know you are thinking it, realize that Abraham tithed off his spoils, not his goods.
Jailminister
New Member
Daniel david, There is different laws. In fact there are 7 of them. Only one of them is not applicable under the new Testament covenant.
Paying tithes was their duty, and what the law required; Christ tells them they ought not to leave it undone. Note, All ought in their places to contribute to the support and maintenance of a standing ministry: withholding tithes is called robbing God, Mal. 2:8–10. They that are taught in the word, and do not communicate to them that teach them that love a cheap gospel, come short of the Pharisee.
Oh by the way if all of the laws over with now, then what about gravity?
Paying tithes was their duty, and what the law required; Christ tells them they ought not to leave it undone. Note, All ought in their places to contribute to the support and maintenance of a standing ministry: withholding tithes is called robbing God, Mal. 2:8–10. They that are taught in the word, and do not communicate to them that teach them that love a cheap gospel, come short of the Pharisee.
Oh by the way if all of the laws over with now, then what about gravity?
Daniel David
New Member
I, I, I am trying to belleve I actually just read that.
Trotter
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We are to give out of love and thankfulness to God, not out of obligation.
I agree that 10% is a good place to start, as well.
My tithes help support my church (lights, water, gas), my pastor (salary and benfits), my community (through the local association), my state (through the Tennessee Babtist Association), and my world (through the co-operative program of the SBC).
I think that people get offended by the word "tithe" because that was what they did in the OT under the Law. "Offerings" would be better.
In Christ,
Trotter
I agree that 10% is a good place to start, as well.
My tithes help support my church (lights, water, gas), my pastor (salary and benfits), my community (through the local association), my state (through the Tennessee Babtist Association), and my world (through the co-operative program of the SBC).
I think that people get offended by the word "tithe" because that was what they did in the OT under the Law. "Offerings" would be better.
In Christ,
Trotter
Jailminister
New Member
Daniel david said
If you don,t want to learn then you will not. Pharisees were real bad about that also.
Daniel David
New Member
Let it be known that you picked the fight by calling me a pharisee. I have no desire you follow your childish claim by calling you a name, but I will now have to refute each of these claims.
1. There is ONE Mosaic Law. It is always spoken of as one law. If you break any of it, you have broken all of it. If you want to keep any of it, you have to keep all of it. Etc. God gave Moses one law. The law NEVER divides itself and neither does the New Testament.
2. The only law that is in effect is the Law of Christ. This is the same thing as the New Covenant. That is the significance between the Hebrews 3 comparison of Moses and Christ. They were each prophets known by their message. Christ's message is superior.
3. That is correct. Jesus came and LIVED under the law while he walked this earth. He fulfilled the law and told others they needed to also. Note that even in that context, tithing isn't an issue of much weight.
4. The storehouse wasn't an area of ministry. Do you know what a storehouse is? They had to tithe to maintain the storehouse. It would be like not paying your income taxes. Israel was a theocracy. How do you think they paid people except through the tithe?
5. Wow, I have never heard of an arminian accuses a Lordship salvation advocate of a cheap gospel. Perhaps you don't know what you are talking about.
6. Man, where do you come up with this stuff? How about checking out Colossian 1:16-18. Does that text indicate at all that Christ sustains the world?
Next.
Jailminister
New Member
DD just keep your head inthe sand. Jesus complaint against the pharisees was the same thing.
You said:
2)All 7 laws are those established by Christ. The ceremonial law is the only one not applicable under the New Testament covenant.
3)Never said tithing was a big issue. Just like water baptism, it is just an act of obedience, but not for salvation.
4)The storehouse is a place of support that supported the ministry(that is more than a church building).
5) First of all I am not an arminian. I believe in soveriegn grace. Perhaps you don't want to know what I am talking about. The pharisees had the same problem with Jesus and the apostles.
6)Great verses: Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.
Sounds right to me. Why would you not want to support the church as a matter of obedience.
1Sa 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.s.
You said:
1)There are 7 laws.
2)All 7 laws are those established by Christ. The ceremonial law is the only one not applicable under the New Testament covenant.
3)Never said tithing was a big issue. Just like water baptism, it is just an act of obedience, but not for salvation.
4)The storehouse is a place of support that supported the ministry(that is more than a church building).
5) First of all I am not an arminian. I believe in soveriegn grace. Perhaps you don't want to know what I am talking about. The pharisees had the same problem with Jesus and the apostles.
6)Great verses: Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence.
Sounds right to me. Why would you not want to support the church as a matter of obedience.
1Sa 15:22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.s.
Daniel David
New Member
First of all, why do you keep calling me a pharisee? Does that give you the extra boost it takes to actually post this stuff?
1. 7 laws? Let us see here: general law (written on hearts of all people), mosaic law (given exclusively to the jews), and the law of Christ (which is binding on the New Covenant people). Hmmmm. Yep, 1 + 1 + 1 = 7. Flawless.
2. So, Christ fulfilled 1/3 or 1/7 (depending on your meanings) of the law. Is that it? So, did Christ not fulfill the civil law? Was he disobedient to the civil law? What about the so called moral law? Did Christ fail at that too?
You know, the civil and moral and ceremonial law all demanded a death penalty. You are against the death penalty. Well, at least you are consistent.
3. It was an act of obedience for the Jews under the old covenant. The old covenant is called the ministry of death. Who has their head in what sand now?
4. Nope. It was a way of saying that they believe God is faithful. God does not require us to give 10 percent to a church to prove he is faithful today. If you have doubts though, I can send you some of my tapes that I recently preached out of Romans 8.
5. Quite honestly, after reading this rubbish, you are right. I have no desire to continue reading your stuff. After the discussion about capital punishment and political issues, I can see you have no desire to conform to Scripture. Instead, you choose an expedient way of using Scripture to your own detriment. That is tragic, but it isn't like you haven't been shown the truth.
6. You asked about the natural laws. I gave you a text on the natural laws. If you are still confused.
In answer to your last question, I am all for supporting the church. You are wrong to impose a 10% standard (even though the O.T. tithe demanded more than that so you are inconsistent again).