Tithing??

Christ didn't come to abolish the law, he came to fulfill it.

Now, as for the "blessing" on those who don't tithe, that is for God to determine, but I feel it is a valid Biblical principle for the believer.

Failure to tithe is why so many small churches can't afford pastors and when they do the salary is not sufficient for a single uneducated person to live on.

Failure to tithe is the reason that the church does not fulfill the command to care for widows and orphans, we can't support if we don't have the funds.

I'm speaking now from the minister's point of view as the wife of an associate pastor in a church who cannot afford to pay its staff and who can barely from month to month make the expenses of operating the building.

The reason our "house" is not an "abundant house" is because of people's failure to treat God's house as a house of blessing and encouragement. Its also a failure of God's people to assure that there will be "meat" in His house.

Don't tithe if you don't want to, but some how someway, someone is going to have to tithe for you so that your pastor can be paid and the building can be opened and ministry can continue.

Statistics in the Baptist church alone show that 10% of the people carry 90% of the financial load of the church. So someone somewhere is giving your part. I don't know any pastors who will tell you that its Biblically acceptable for you to not tithe. I wouldn't want to be the one "robbing God."

[ August 15, 2002, 08:46 PM: Message edited by: Multimom ]

 

Christ didn't come to abolish the law, he came to fulfill it.

 

All I can tell you is that if you don't give up on God, he won't give up on you. If you go back and read some of my posts regarding this, in this thread, you will see where even with drastically reduced income, God provided and in many ways miraculously to cover above and beyond what was needed to be paid out.

I would encourage you to not quit. Don't abandon what your heart has encouraged you to do. I know how you feel I have often wondered if we could survive on "what was left" as well, but somehow, God always does.

Now from my doctrinal point of view, God's word tells us that he will rebuke the devourer for our sakes if we are faithful. Believe that and I'm sure in pretty short order, God will provide you with a job that will be above and beyond what you could have asked or thought.

I'm praying for you.

 

Okay, do we believe that all of God's word is profitable, if we don't then my points are moot. I personally am an all or nothing scripture person and an inerrantist so with that said let me quote:

Malachi 3: 6-12

For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed. Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances and have not kept them. Return unto me and I will return unto you, saith the Lord of hosts. But ye said, "Where in shall we return?" Will a man rob God? Yet you have robbed me. But ye say, "Wherein have we robbed the?"

"In tithes and offerings, Ye are cursed with a curs for you have robbed me even this whole nation. Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house and prove me now wherewith saith the Lord of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven and pour you out a blessing that there shall not be room enough to receive it. And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes and he shall not destroy the fruits of you ground, neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the fields, saith the Lord of hosts. And all nations shall call you blessed for you shall be a delightsome land." saith the Lord of hosts.

Now to justify my use of Old Testament Scripture in this area, let me quote:

2 Timothy 3:16

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished to all good works."

Surely we understand that the word of God must be interpreted by itself and in view of the whole. I don't discard the Old Testament, just because it's the Old Testament. I consider that to be cafeteria style faith which results, for most believers, in a very unbalanced and unheathy spiritual diet.

 

Actually this really does fit my postion. It is simply an instruction to take the first fruit of your labor. Whether that be money or other. I know many small country churches who have literal "store houses" for people who bring in produce grown in their own fields. This is then dispursed among the people of the church and community who are in need.

This is still not a dismissal of tithing.

For I am the Lord, I change not;

[ August 20, 2002, 01:36 PM: Message edited by: Multimom ]

 

Brian:

I'm not denying that we are under grace, but I am telling you that it is not acceptable for you to give when the mood hits you.

If you are doing that then someone else is making sure your Pastor is paid on time.

Now I'm not saying that you personally are doing this, but if you based the Pastor's pay day and his pay amounts given and when its given by 90% of the church (as I stated before SBC stats show that 10% of the church members carry 90% of the financial load of the church) This man would get paid about once every 6 months and only about 1/3 of what his salary. Regular income into the church provideds for regular out go and unless people give regularly and in regular amounts consistantly then no one gets paid. Ask your financial committee what the Bank requires if the church seeks out a loan. You have to produce income records and inconsistant income will prevent approval. You must be able to show constant income and a reasonable projection of future income. How can a church do that if people don't tithe??

If everyone gave "whenever" and gave "whatever" the Pastor would get paid "whenever" and "whatever". And truthlfully a whole lot more than the 1500 pastors that quit everymonth, would be quitting the ministry. (Statistics show that approximately 1500 ministers leave the ministry every month.)

Lets go hypothetical. Say you work 40 hours a week and you make $500 per week. You get paid on the 15th and the 30th. If you boss said, Hey Brian, sorry dude nobody paid their bill this week, we can't pay you, but we want you to still work 40 hours a week and be on call 24/7 and if someone decides to pay their bill to us in the next 2 weeks then we'll pay you your salary.

So you see the "whatever I want to give", "whenever I want to give it." Reduces the Pastor to the position of unpaid slave and that is Biblically just WRONG.

And if you look closely:

14:26: And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

There's really nothing wrong with enjoying the fruits of your labor. Or do you believe that it is wrong for you to spend your money on whatever you choose? If you do, then you are saying that every nickle you earn goes to the church or are you consuming it somewhat on your own desires.

You said "My Bible is a whole, yours apparently consists of only verses that, out of context," If you deny tithing as a Biblical principle then I could say the same of you.

If you read on in Deuteronomy, Verses 26 and 27 read: And you may spend that money for whatever your appetite craves, for oxen, or sheep, or new wine, or stronger drink, or what ever you desire; and you shall eat there before the Lord your God and you shall rejoice, you and your household. And you shall not forsake or neglect the Levite (God's minister) in your towns, for he has been given no share or inheritance with you. At the end of every three years you sahll bring forth all the tithie of your increase the same year and lay it up within your towns. And the Levite (because he has no part or inheritance with you) and the stranger or temporary resident, and the fatherless and the widown who are in your towns shall come and eat and be satisfied so that the Lord your God may bless you in all of the work of your hands that you do.

So since you think we should ignore this (leading me to think that you don't believe what Paul told Timothy when he said that "all scripture is profitable.....") and since you think that do you personally pay your pastor an amount of your increase every three years since you don't tithe.

Bri, we aren't under the law, but we are under the unbrella of God's divine instruction and to believe that it is okay for you to decide when and where you grace God with your money is, I believe in error." Do you steal (10 commandments), do you murder (10 commandments) do you ever wish you had something that someone else has (covet - 10 commandments). Yes these are Mosaic law, but they are still to be honored as is every single word and work of God. If everyone did as you advocate, many, many churches would be forced to close down and sell their properties.

You spoke of your Bible as a whole. Do you really believe that? If you do then how do you justify not tithing, and do you dismiss Pauls admonition to Timothy that all scripture is profitable...... Since you accused me of "lifting out of context" you have done the same. by saying that this part applies, but this part doesn't. Again I call that cafeteria style faith which usually results in an unhealthy spiritual diet for the believer.

[ August 21, 2002, 09:40 AM: Message edited by: Multimom ]

 

I asked one of the pastors on the board to post this in the Pastor's corner so that we could get their take on this. So far there have only been 4 responses. One person who was vasilacting and the two above which I copied and pasted here and one pastor who quoted that "Bring ye all the tithe into the store house" sounded pretty clear to him.

 

Brian:

Just so you know, I don't tithe because I must, I tithe because I am thrilled to follow the Lord's commands, it does not cause me any anguish or frustration or irritation. He did say, "If you love me keep my commandments." I don't give grudgingly and if someone else is tithing but all the while muttering, I agree that God is not pleased with that.

Yes I do, but Jesus did say, I didn't come to ABOLISH the law but to FULLFILL it.

So by his own words He didn't come to get rid of the law, what he did do was come to free us from the compulsary obedience of it. So that we could by our own faith and trust in him choose to abide by them in the joy of our salvation.

 

Sorry to leave you hanging. School has started and sometimes I don't get to all of the threads I'm following.

For example, I have to head to the school shortly and provide my 14 yo son with the homework papers he left on the bar this morning.

You said, "Christians are now called to give what they see fit as described by my verse above."

While that is true many don't "see fit" to give at all. As I stated before 10% of church members carry 90% of the financial load of the church. Which means 90% of church members don't "see fit".

Now let me see what I can find, It's been a while since I read the story of the widow's mite but I'm sure I can find something applicable there.

And he sat down opposite the treasury and saw how the crowd was casting money into the treasury. Many rich were throwing in large sums. And a widow who was poverty stricken came and put in two small copper mites (the smallest of coins), which together make half of a cent. And He called His disciples to him and said to them. Truly and surely I tell you this widow (she who is) poverty stricken, has put in more than all those contributing to the treasury. For they all threw in out of their abundance; but she, out of her deep poverty, has put in everything that she had---(even) all she had on which to live.

Mark 12:41-44

Now while this isn't a direct Tithing example, she was participating in the as you called "tax" of the Jews. But she gave out of her lack. Jesus didn't stand there and say, "This is a tax against the Jews and in the new covenant you don't have to give." No, instead he commended to his disciples the fact that the widow have her last penny.

Somewhere in that we have to understand that we don't give in arrogance, but we still must give. If we give as WE "purpose" without some sort of guideline, how can we support our church. Bri, from what I have discerened you probably are very generous in your giving, but unfortunately that is not always the case.

I'm reminded of the story where a little girl and her father went to church. At offering time the little girl watched as her father put a $1.00 bill in the offering plate. Since this was the first time the little girl had been to church, she was a bit confused but at sermon time, she settled in to listen. Finally the service was over and as they were going home the father commented that the sermon sure was bad. The little girl piped up and said, "What did you expect for a $1.00?"

Now as to the "tithing" tax. I'm not bound by the law, but I do feel that it is a Biblical principle well worth the effort.

Bri, will you at least conceed that most people who don't tithe, don't give either? Convention statistics bear that out.