Titus 2.11

[William C]

Originally posted by Ken the Spurgeonite:
God bound billions and billions of people over to disobedience to see if out of their fallen "free will" they would repent and believe, knowing that the relative "many" would be tortured by Him forever and ever and ever.

There's your scheme. And it's sick, really sick, and I will have none of it. No sir, I will have none of it.

"God bound ALL MEN (that would be billions and billions) over to disobedience so that he might have mercy on them ALL." Romans 11:32

You have the gall to call my system "sick." Your system has the same number burning in hell because of God choices instead of because of their own, which one is sicker? One that has a God who judges man for that which they were able to do and chose not to, or a system where God judges man for that which they were unable to do because of His decrees? Hmmmm.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
for that which they were unable to do because of His decrees?

There you go again. There are no decrees of God that cause a man to go to Hell. A person goes to Hell because of sin, regardless of how your side tries to dance around the sin issue.

 

[William C]

Originally posted by Ken the Spurgeonite:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Brother Bill:
for that which they were unable to do because of His decrees?

There you go again. There are no decrees of God that cause a man to go to Hell. A person goes to Hell because of sin, regardless of how your side tries to dance around the sin issue. </font>[/QUOTE]I'm speaking of the decree of Total Depravity which ultimately says that God made it where when Adam sinned all mankind became totally unable to hear, see, understand and respond to the gospel message unless the decree of election gave them a new heart.

No matter how hard you try you can't dance around double predestination.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
No matter how hard you try you can't dance around double predestination.

Call it what you will. God does as He pleases, whether you like it or not.

 

[William C]

Originally posted by KenH:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Brother Bill:
No matter how hard you try you can't dance around double predestination.

Call it what you will. God does as He pleases, whether you like it or not.

</font>[/QUOTE]Yes He does.

And for some reason you can't see that it pleases God for man to love and worship him by his own free will instead of being made to worship Him by an irresistable force. If that were God's plan He would have just made the rocks cry out like John said.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
And for some reason you can't see that it pleases God

I don't believe it pleases God to torture His creatures forever and ever when...

Oh never mind, you won't agree anyway.

 

[William C]

Originally posted by KenH:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Brother Bill:
And for some reason you can't see that it pleases God

I don't believe it pleases God to torture His creatures forever and ever when...

Oh never mind, you won't agree anyway. </font>[/QUOTE]Cop out. Why bother coming to this board if you are not going to actually deal with the arguments. Ken you just like to throw out one liners and dodge the tuff stuff.

I don't want to waist my time with that.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
Why bother coming to this board if you are not going to actually deal with the arguments.

I guess because I find this board somewhat "addictive" but I also find it quite tiresome sometimes going over the same arguments again and again and again and again.... If I use one liners they are dismissed as not being substantive. If I engage in interpretative posts they are ridiculed.

May God bless you.

This post is done and I'm out.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Ken H,

Ken, you said, 'And your scheme has God limiting Himself and in the process sending billions
of people to be tortured forever and ever and ever, and all for the sake of your idea of "free will", and most of whom never ever had the chance to exercise your idea of "free will" as they never heard about the true God or Christ Jesus or the need to repent and believe.'

You got me wrong, brother Ken. It is possible that God is not going to damn people who have NEVER heard the Gospel. Once they have heard they then become responsible to trust in Him. My basis of saying this comes from John 15:22 & 24. The New International Translation says, 'If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin . . . . If I had not done among them what no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. But now they have seen these miracles, and yet they have hated both Me and My Father.' When you figure out the meaning of Jesus' words here, let me know. And if all lost souls go to Hell the ones who never heard of Jesus will receive less punishment. [Matt. 23:14; Mark 12:40; Luke 20:47]

It is our job and ministry to witness and preach [Mark 16:16] so people can hear and believe in Jesus. [John 3:16]

 

[Primitive Baptist]

The "all men" is Titus 2:11 is not without exception, but without distinction.

"For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him." (Rom. 10:12)

"Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people." (Isa. 56:6, 7)

Salvation is for "all people," not just the Jewish nation. That is the sense of the text.

 

[Frogman]

'If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin . . . . If I had not done among them what no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. But now they have seen these miracles, and yet they have hated both Me and My Father.'

Brother,

What of the nations that did not hear of the Gospel after the dispersion of Babel? But really this is not a valid question, because all men were born of the sons of Noah, so then certainly there was a strand of the promise of the Messiah among all peoples, so how do we say that all men did not know? Even the Chinese called their emperor the 'son of heaven' where do you suppose this terminology came from?

All men have been and are responsible, hearing of the manifestation or not; they have been made aware of the promise, I believe Ex. 8 supports this view.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas Eaton

 

[Frogman]

I agree Primitive Baptist. I would also say that 'appeared' means to be made manifest, such that the means of salvation has now been made manifest, the event all of history of mankind looked forward to before and now looks back upon. This manifestation is to the Glory of God and shall improve upon those who being moved by the Holy Spirit find they have a vital interest in it.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas Eaton

 

[Harald]

aa. As for the elect. Condemnation came upon all of Adam's posterity when he sinned in Eden, including the elect of God. Thus the elect were under condemnation with the rest, being children of wrath as the rest, see Eph. chapter 2.

In John 3:17 Christ uses the aorist form of krinô, "to judge", "to damn" etc. Meaning Christ was not sent into the world by God in order that He pass a once and for all sentence of damnation upon "the world", but to the contrary (all) to the end (hina) "the world" be saved by Him. This can only be true if "the world" refers to the elect of God. The subjunctive mood of sôdzô in this context cannot mean uncertainty, because the analogy of faith as respects the salvation of God's elect allows for no uncertainty as to their being efficaciously saved by Christ Jesus the Lord. Christ is an efficacious Saviour of His people, no ifs and buts.

In Adam the elect of God were under condemnation, a condemnatory sentence due to sin imputed. Considered in the person of Christ there is no condemnation for them, but grace reigning through righteousness by Jesus Christ. Non-elect persons are ever under the sentence of condemnation, due to Adam's sin imputed, and it will never be removed because Christ's righteousness has not been imputed to such.

As for agorazo I will not argue against the fact that in certain instances it refers to the death of Christ in a saving sense. But in 2Pet. 2:1 agorazo is not a saving "buying", because if it were so then the false teachers would not go to perdition, as Peter indicates they will. The redemption which is in Christ Jesus, Rom. 3:24, is an efficacious redemption, and each person included in that work by Divine decree in eternity will inherit eternal blessedness with all that it entails. None of those included in Christ's saving work can be lost, go to perdition. This is the teaching of the whole counsel of God's holy word as respects soteriology. Context is important in interpretation, no denying, but it must be subordinated to the analogia fidei. A contextual interpretation must not fight against the rest of Scripture on a given matter. The Scripture cannot be broken, the Bible contains no real contradictions, because God is not the God of disorder, but of concord and harmony.


Harald

 

[Frogman]

John Gill:

Some read this clause thus, "that bringeth salvation to all men"; to which agrees the Syriac version, which renders it, lk tyxm, "that quickeneth" or "saveth all"; and so the Arabic version: but then this cannot be understood of every individual person; for the Gospel has not brought salvation to everyone in any sense, not even in the external ministry of it; there have been multitudes who have never so much as heard the outward sound of salvation by Jesus Christ, and fewer still who have an application of it to their souls by the Spirit of God; to many to whom it has come, it has been an hidden Gospel, and the savour of death unto death: it follows indeed,

 

[BobRyan]

Christ brings salvation to ALL MEN - Hitler, Saddam .. .ALL by "Shining LIGHT into darkness" for HE IS the LIGHT that LIGHTs EVERY MAN John 1.

He IS the one that DRAWS ALL mankind.

He BRINGS salvation to ALL - but ALL do not accept it.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bill --
We don't believe that. Arminianism believes it was God's sovereign will (or intent) to give man a geniune free will choice, not to save every soul (that would be universalism). Christ's intention was not to save all, but to provide salvation for all through the means of faith, in which case he was perfectly successful.

At the cross - the torment AND suffering of the 2nd death for EVERY sin of mankind was "paid by Christ" who "BECAME sin for US that we might become the righteousness of God in HIM".

He "died as an atoning sacrifice for OUR sins and NOT for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" 1John 2:2.

So in REALITY He brings "salvation to EVERY MAN".

The GOAL of the cross was to enable that as fact past and present and future. The goal was to SAVE VERY MAN - 1John 4:14 "God sent His Son to BE the Savior of the WORLD".

But ALL do NOT accept that Salvation.

So the calvinist is troubled by that "IF God KNEW they would not ACCEPT WHY did he PAY for ALL sin? Why bring salvation TO ALL when He KNOWs ALL will not accept?".

The SCOPE of the problem exceeds the bounds of earth according to Daniel 7 and Rev 12. God is not simply sovereign of this one planet. He is sovereign Creator King and God of ALL the Universe. A perfect sinless Universe of Free Will beings - except for this planet of sin.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Ken --
And your scheme has God limiting Himself and in the process sending billions of people to be tortured forever and ever and ever, and all for the sake of your idea of "free will", and most of whom never ever had the chance to exercise your idea of "free will" as they never heard about the true God or Christ Jesus or the need to repent and believe.

Unfortunately, the free willers' motto is evidently, Better to have my free will and burn in Hell than to be a "puppet" and live in Heaven

Ken - the only way for YOUR argument to prevail is for you to show that NNE goes to hell - God ZAPS the brains of ALL so that ALL go to heaven. OTHERWISE SOMEONE gets --- HELL.

You are not making an argument against the Arminian view when you argue that God needs to save ALL or else doom people to ETERNITY of torment, torture and monsterous cruelty.

There is NO system or set of doctrines that states that MORE are saved IF a Calvinist view prevails than if an Arminian one prevails.

Rather CHRIST HIMSELF states that "IT IS THE FEW" that are saved and "NARROW IS THE GATE that leads to eternal life". MAtt 7

I realize you don't like that CONTRAST IN proportions. But that is not a DIFFERENCE between Calvinism and Arminianism - rather it is a difference between your view and others.

However when you go on to talk about the principle of eternally cruel monsterous torment in hell - and whether or not Ezek 18 shows God "enjoying it" - you can make a case there.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bill,

You make a good point in that God could have turned stones into robots of praise if that was the extent of His 'interest in mankind'. If it is just a case of robots - why burn any of them?

However you add..

Bill -
He created and planned a world that would be bound over to disobedience so that he might show mercy to them ALL. This would provide his creation the opportunity to repent and believe or rebell against his genuine offer of grace. Some would rather live in the moment and after counting the cost and reasoning it out decide that they would rather stay on their path. They understand the gospel and the attibutes of God as those in Romans 1 did, but they refuse to follow him.

I am not sure exactly what you are getting to here - but God did not plan the earth for destruction by fire, or plan that Adam must fail or plan that Israel must reject the Messiah or plan anything such that man must go to hell, or suffer sorrow on this earth one day.

Rather the all-knowing God created the world "perfect" and sinless mankind with "free will".

Knowing what Adam would do - is not the same as having the purpose or plan that man should fail and that the world would be a place of sin rebellion and misery for 6,000 years.

Knowing it and planning that it is supposed to be that way are two different things.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Harald]

Just had in mind to say that in Titus 2:11 the word which most versions render "hath appeared" is actually an aorist passive indicative - "was made manifest", quite in line with what someone said already. Just a parenthesis.

Harald

 

[BobRyan]

For the Grace of God HAS appeared, Bringing Salvation to ALL mankind Titus 2:11

It is hard to know whether or not this text is more devasting than Matt 23:37 to the Calvinist position. Certainly you never see Calvinists "appeal" to either of them to make their point.

They only deal with them when "confronted" with the texts - and then - only to respond with wild "gyrations" in logic.

In Christ,

Bob