To all Catholic Church going people!!!!

From “The Catholic Encyclopedia, An International Work of Reference on the Constitution, Doctrine, Discipline, and History of the Catholic Church, edited by Charles G. Herbermann, in 15 volumes. 1912

“Worship: This article will deal with Christian worship according to the following definition: homage paid to God, to Jesus Christ, to Hiss saints, to the beings or even to objects which have a special relation to God. There are several degrees of this worship: if it is addressed directly to God, it is superior, absolute, supreme worship, or worship of adoration, or according to the consecrated theological term, a worship of latria. This sovereign worship is due to God alone; addressed to a creature it would become idolatry. When worship is addressed only indirectly to God, that is, when its object is the veneration of martyrs, of angels, or of saints, it is a subordinate worship dependent on the first, and relative, in so far as it honors the creatures of God or their peculiar relations with Him; it is designated by theologians as the worship of dulia, a term denoting servitude, and implying, when used to signify our worship of distinguished servants of God, that their service to Him is their title to our veneration.”

To the Baptist, worship is worship; worship is adoration. The veneration of martyrs, angels, saints, relics, or dulia is worship or adoration. It is idolatry, even though the Catholic theologian vainly tries to put a difference between the two. He himself admits that both are worship.
DHK

 

Your source states that adoration is for God alone, which was my arguement. Thank you.

 

And once again, I responded to the original question, and it has been completely ignored. How about we stop this current trend which is way of base and someone respond to my response.

 

You just used as your source for proof an article which states that adoration and veneration are fundamentally different!? It boggles the mind!

I'm so terribly sorry that you cannot distinguish the two, but I can.

 

You're welcome to believe that. That doesn't make it truth.

 

Considering I've replied to the original topic, which appeared to want a Catholic's view of the presented verses, and have made two attempts to get people to respond to my post, I will take it that no one has a response.

Or was this thread started as an excuse to get off on one of the typical anti Catholic tangeants? I'm starting to think it's the latter.

 

I believe it to be the truth because I can back up what I say with Scripture. You cannot.

The Catholic holds his Oral Tradtion, Magesterium, Catechetical teachings, and Papal decrees of more importance than the Word of God. You will honor the Church Fathers before you will trust God's Word.

Our final authority in all things is the Scriptures, the Word of God. And therein do I know that I am correct. I did not post simply an opinion. What I posted was based on God's Word.

A Biblical refutation would be preferred than a
"You're welcome to believe that. That doesn't make it truth."
DHK

 

DHK,

When exactly are you going to reply to my post that is on-topic with this thread? I've been begging all day.

[ September 15, 2002, 12:51 AM: Message edited by: GraceSaves ]

 

You don't have to beg me. I put the word in quotations because it is improper not because it is official. I also expressed my opinion that the Church of Rome has perpetrated a fraud upon the world and its own people and caused them to commit idolatry (howbeit ignorantly) with their double-speak. The RCC indeed frowns upon the use of the words of worship when applied to Mary and the saints especially in America. However they do allow the ____ (choose your own word - devotees?) to bow before an image assume the traditional posture of worship and pray to the saint. Personally I don't see the difference between this and worship. Is the saint omnipresent hearing the millions of petitioners simultaneously?
It is at best, in my opinion, a marriage of paganism and Christianity.
I was going to put the word "worship" in quotes to express my opinion but I chose "adoration" because (if you look it up in the dictionary) it does not always and necessarily equal worship, in that you are wrong.
On the other hand veneration can and sometimes does equal worship.
I'm sure you suspected I would say that.

Anyway here is an Italian web site that uses the word. I realize that it is not an official RCC site.

http://www.val.it/diocesi/giubileo/maria2.htm

HankD

 

My argument is and always will be that where there is doctrine, there will be abuses. However, I will never believe that we should do away with sound, solid doctrine because some people refuse to use it properly. I personally absolutely do not worship Mary or the saints, though I do pray to them and utilize their intercession. I don't know anyone else, either, who "worships" in the "meant for God only" sense the saints or Mary. If they do, I blame it on a lack of poor teaching in local parishes. Is this a problem? Of course. Does that mean the church is apostate? No.

Abuses will always occur. Do you honestly believe everyone who partakes in communion in your church has thoroughly examined their heart? To not do so is to "drink judgement upon ourselves." The truth is available, but we can't govern the hearts of the individual. The information is there, and hopefully we pray that it is being taught correctly, but it is up to the individual to decide how to use and live out their faith.

Thus, I only see the benefits in utilizing the intercessions of the saints in Heaven on my behalf; we are all brothers and sisters in Christ, and I will take all the help I can get!

I simply respectfully disagree. It is in no way worship to me. And since that is the official stance of the Church, how can you say the Church has gone astray? You may not agree with it, but it's also not condoning of worship apart from God alone. You can't twist this like that.

 

Dear Catholics,

It really doesn't matter whether Baptists believe or care if there is or isn't a difference between these two entities called latria and dulia.

Does God care?

HankD

 

Grace, you had better take a step backward and cool your heels. I have not made any personal attacks on you, as you have just accused me. I have not called you any names, but you just called me ignorant.

I quoted accurately for you the Catholic Encyclopedia. Then, I gave the Baptist position: why we disagree with it, using both Scripture and reasoning. Go back and read my posts. The response that I have gotten from you is a flippant, “You're welcome to believe that. That doesn't make it truth.”
You talk about attacking people. Please reread your last post.
DHK

 

Does God hate the honor of his creation? No.

To honor God's wonderful creation is to honor God Himself. In my opinion, Mary was is the "most blessed" of God's creatures, and thus it is fitting to show such honor and devotion to her. To do so, again in my opinion, is showing great respect, love, and thanksgiving to God. To honor the saints and martyrs is to honor God, for these are people who have lived their lives to further the Gospel of Christ. In honoring them, I honor He who created them.

You want to call that worship? Fine. But if you must call it worship, it is merely the worship of God alone by meditating and praying with His wonderful gifts of creation. To me, it's a "thank you, God!"

In no way does it demean God, the creator of the world.
In no way does it demean Christ, the savior of the world.

Once again, in honoring them, I honor He who created them and called them to a higher purpose.

[ September 15, 2002, 01:11 AM: Message edited by: GraceSaves ]

 

I've already edited my post. Absolutely no offense, but the way you phrase your posts towards me always comes across to me with very little compassion and love, and it brings the worst out in me. I looked back at what I had written and deleted it, and have already asked for forgiveness. I ask for yours now.

I'm going to withdraw from this current tangeant. Please read my reply (somewhere back there) to the original question, and direct any responses to that.

 

Daer GraceSaves,

As uncomfortable as it might be, I believe you have almost arrived at a place of understanding of Baptists and other non-Catholics.

Understanding is where we can meet.

It is uncomfortable for us (me anyway) also.
One last thing. We (I) sincerely don't believe I am twisting things.

You are sincere in seeing a difference between veneration and worship. I accept that.

HankD

 

Hank,

Quick note: I added a lot to my last brief resopnse to you. Please give that a read.

And, since we've (finally) agreed to disagree, please go back and read my response to this topic's original post. Comments are welcome.

 

Did John ever called the angel whom he bowed down to "God" or claim that the angel was a god? According to the Bible, he just bowed down and angel said, "do not do it". He did not say "go ahead, it's ok as long as you bow down before God more than you do to me", he said not to bow down to him at all.