To all Catholic Church going people!!!!

Did John ever called the angel whom he bowed down to "God" or claim that the angel was a god? According to the Bible, he just bowed down and angel said, "do not do it". He did not say "go ahead, it's ok as long as you bow down before God more than you do to me", he said not to bow down to him at all.</font>[/QUOTE]John fell at the angels feet in worship. I tend to think if a brilliant angel fell at our feet, we would by nature cover our eyes, fall down, or some other act of humility. The angel proceeded to tell him to get up to assure him that he was merely an angel, and not God. John didn't simply see an angel (like it was a natural occurrence) and attempt to worship it. He was likely very afraid and unsure of what he was seeing.

This cannot be taken in the same context as someone kneeling before a statue, a means of humbling oneself and preparing for prayer or meditation. They aren't worshipping the statue, and to suggest they are is absurd.

 

You should have read what I added to that post. These verses refer to honoring God's creation without making the connection that what we're honoring is the work of God. In honor's the saints, I AM honoring God. I'm not putting them in the place of God; they are subordinate, but nonetheless, important.

 

Dear GraceSaves,

I understand your devotion to Mary, I disagree that it is proper. It is what you have been taught and you trusted those who taught you.

Mary was indeed blessed above all the women that ever were or will be. To be chosen to bear the Son of God in her body and be His mother.

However Bapists do not feel that this gives her a special place in heaven or an "in" with her Son that we do not have. The Scripture bears this out.

In addition, an overview of the history of the Church of Rome shows a steady escalation of the elevation of Mary to a place which many non-Catholics feel is blasphemous.

As we speak, there is a movement within the Church to have the Pope officially pronounce her the CoRedemptrix with Christ and the Mediatrix of all Graces. And indeed many leaders within the Church have unofficially attributed these qualities to her. Perhaps you already know this.

This is exceedingly offensive to most Baptists.

HankD

 

John had a decent excuse for bowing down, since the angel was probably very brilliant and imposing. A person kneeling in front of a statue does not have that excuse.

 

Note that I am a convert to Catholicism, and I firmly believe that God lead me here, despite much opposition from immediate family. Nothing else has ever felt this right to me. It was taught to me, but mostly I came to accept it through prayer and personal study.

Indeed.

The Scriptures bear out in many places that we will be rewarded in Heaven for many things. If there are rewards, then there will be different places for us in Heaven; otherwise, that devalues the reward. Obviously, in Heaven, no one will care about who is where, for there will be nothing but happiness. But that does not mean that Mary cannot be close to Jesus.

Over 400 years before it was defined as dogma, Martin Luther fully attested to the immaculate conception, and it can even be found in the Lutheran Confessions. They have merely fully defined pre-existing beliefs in the last 200 years. They have always been held. I'm sorry that you feel that they are blasphemous; I wish you could see it as I do.

The Catholic Church is not a democracy. If it was, we'd have married priests, women priests, contraception, and other such things that many "American" Catholics try and push for. And yet the Church hasn't budged, despite liberal opposition. Do not believe everything you read.

It saddens me that these divisions exist. I honestly post here with such frequency because I want these divisions to diminish.

 

John had a decent excuse for bowing down, since the angel was probably very brilliant and imposing. A person kneeling in front of a statue does not have that excuse.</font>[/QUOTE]It's like you only read the first half of my post. The type of kneeling done, for instance, in front of a statue, is not the same as what John was doing in front of the angel. Catholics are attuned to using all of their senses for worship. Focusing on an image of the cross, or of Jesus, or of a saint helps us to keep our focus when praying or meditating on God's Word. Please don't make me say this over and over again.

 

John had a decent excuse for bowing down, since the angel was probably very brilliant and imposing. A person kneeling in front of a statue does not have that excuse.</font>[/QUOTE]It's like you only read the first half of my post. The type of kneeling done, for instance, in front of a statue, is not the same as what John was doing in front of the angel. Catholics are attuned to using all of their senses for worship. Focusing on an image of the cross, or of Jesus, or of a saint helps us to keep our focus when praying or meditating on God's Word. Please don't make me say this over and over again.</font>[/QUOTE]So you say, but the Bible makes no such distinction.

 

John had a decent excuse for bowing down, since the angel was probably very brilliant and imposing. A person kneeling in front of a statue does not have that excuse.</font>[/QUOTE]It's like you only read the first half of my post. The type of kneeling done, for instance, in front of a statue, is not the same as what John was doing in front of the angel. Catholics are attuned to using all of their senses for worship. Focusing on an image of the cross, or of Jesus, or of a saint helps us to keep our focus when praying or meditating on God's Word. Please don't make me say this over and over again.</font>[/QUOTE]So you say, but the Bible makes no such distinction.</font>[/QUOTE]If, as you say, it makes NO distinction, then what I am saying is extra Biblical, but not UNBiblical.

 

No, bowing down to statues is quite unBiblical.

 

John,

Exactly how do you explain furthering this tangeant when I have clearly replied to your original post? Seriously, why not just admit you had no real desire to see what we had to say about these verses but were merely looking for a starting point to further attack the Church?

You have NO excuse. Would you like me to count how many times on this thread I've asked for responses to my response to the thread? We Catholics get bashed for "not being able to answer" the question...I answer it....I PLEA for someone to respond to it...and the AUTHOR OF THE THREAD ignores it.

Puts a whole new perspective on things, doesn't it?

 

I would hope and pray that The Lord would open your eyes though His word and save some.

Or, more to the point, that the Lord open eyes according to YOUR POINT OF VIEW, and YOUR version of His word.

I, on the other hand, pray that the Lord reveal to your heart to cease your persecution of your Cathlic brothers in Christ, as Jesus revealed Himself to Paul during his persecution of the early followers.

 

Fine and dandy. There is no Catholic mandate that you must "bow down in front of images" nor "serve them." I've never personally bowed down in front of a statue because of the statue. Some statues remind me of God or are focal points for meditation, and these are points that I might kneel in prayer. I'm not bowing to the statue, just as if you kneel at the side of your bed, you are not bowing to your bed. You are using it as a frame of reference.

Also, this still has nothing to do with your original post, nor my response to it. Will you avoid it forever? We're on the fifth page of this thread now, and it has yet to be addressed.

 

Fine and dandy. There is no Catholic mandate that you must "bow down in front of images" nor "serve them." I've never personally bowed down in front of a statue because of the statue. Some statues remind me of God or are focal points for meditation, and these are points that I might kneel in prayer. I'm not bowing to the statue, just as if you kneel at the side of your bed, you are not bowing to your bed. You are using it as a frame of reference.

Also, this still has nothing to do with your original post, nor my response to it. Will you avoid it forever? We're on the fifth page of this thread now, and it has yet to be addressed.</font>[/QUOTE]You response did not deal with why Catholics are not making statues of Jael and bowing down or kneeling in front of them. Even if she isn't as blessed as Mary she aught to more blessed than all the other people that the Catholic church makes statues of (seeing as she was called blessed and they weren't).

 

Perhaps because this question has not been asked until JUST NOW. I can't be expected to read your mind and answer every whim that you think up; you have to ask me. ALSO, this thread was not about "bowing down to statues" until some of you decided to take that path and go away from the original post, of which YOU STILL HAVE NOT RESPONDED TO.

As for this new question, have you noticed that you don't find statues or images of David, Solomon, Moses, Noah, Ruth, Elijah, or other Old Testament figures? Perhaps there is a reason for this? Perhaps you already know the answer?

 

Perhaps because this question has not been asked until JUST NOW. I can't be expected to read your mind and answer every whim that you think up; you have to ask me. ALSO, this thread was not about "bowing down to statues" until some of you decided to take that path and go away from the original post, of which YOU STILL HAVE NOT RESPONDED TO.

As for this new question, have you noticed that you don't find statues or images of David, Solomon, Moses, Noah, Ruth, Elijah, or other Old Testament figures? Perhaps there is a reason for this? Perhaps you already know the answer?</font>[/QUOTE]The original post was simply stated that Mary wasn't the only one called blessed. That begs the question of why don't Catholic honor the other people with statues, bowing down and kneeling?

I see that you've noticed that the Old Testament saints knew not to go making statues of people. Don't you think that perhaps they had a very good reason to do this? Too bad the leaders of the Catholic church are not as perceptive as you are but instead insist on making statues so that they can bow down to them.

 

So, in a nutshell, you didn't read my post. Thanks.

 

So, in a nutshell, you didn't read my post. Thanks.</font>[/QUOTE]I dealt with your point about Mary being more blessed for the reasons you gave in my previous post on the previous page.

 

So, in a nutshell, you didn't read my post. Thanks.</font>[/QUOTE]I dealt with your point about Mary being more blessed for the reasons you gave in my previous post on the previous page.</font>[/QUOTE]I just checked page five, and there is not a post there where you took my response to the original request and expounded upon it. Try again.