To all Catholic Church going people!!!!

You misread my question. I meant have you noticed that Catholic Churches do not have statues/images of these people.

Also, in the OT, no one had entered Heaven yet, and thus one could not pray to them.

 

I was reading today for my "Mary in the Modern World" graduate course, and a Marian theologian's words struck my intellect with a breath of truth, of fresh air.

"Mother of God, Mary consented to lose her own Son, the Son of God, and received in exchange, as sons, all men destined to share the divine filiation of Jesus. She did not merit grace in its fundamental reality, but in the motherly modality with which it is communicated to mankind. Hence, her coredemptive merit, while being condign merit, has only a secondary value with respect to the merit of Christ. Christians cannot forget that, if they receive the affection and maternal help of Mary, they owe these to the sacrifice offered on Calvary by the Mother of the Redeemer. Mary paid a very high price, that of the coredemption, the motherhood which makes the Christian life more confident and more exultant," Jean Galot, S.J. in Mary Co-redemptrix - Doctrinal Issues Today, ed. Dr. Mark Miravalle, S.T.D. (Queenship Publishing 2002)

 

This is my post that I was refering to and the following was the post that you made which I was refering to.

 

So, you're idea of responding to my post is to introduce a new question that goes above and beyond what the original asked for. I guess that means that my response was correct. Thank you.

Further, in doing so, you are showing that the question was loaded, and you had no desire for a Catholic to relate the three verses. God bless you, DualHunter.

[ September 17, 2002, 03:16 PM: Message edited by: GraceSaves ]

 

The question was simply how do verses which call people other than Mary blessed affect your view of the blessedness of Mary? Like I said before, that begs the question of why don't Catholics honor all the other people with statues, bowing down and kneeling? Catholics will honor some of these people who are "blessed" with statues but not all. Why is this?

 

I think this offensive to most anyone that is not Catholic. This phrase should say to all Christians. And I would like to know who has the right to do any of this? The Pope is only a man.

GraceSaves, we are to give ONLY God all the glory, and honor, and praise.

We are to give God all the Thanks for what He has created, and Thanks for giving His Son Jesus Christ all the Authority and Power that was in Heaven.

I think by this kneeling and praying to Mary, you are feeling an emotion. You are seeing something visible, rather than trusting in those things which you cannot see. You are acting on your own emotions.

I think this really says it all!

 

I find it offensive that all of our explanations are rejected because you all have a "hunch" that it's just not right.

At the end of each decade of the Rosary, which I had the pleasure of praying with a group of students last night, we pray, "Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit. As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end. Amen."

Second, you don't follow your own advice. "Honor thy father and thy mother." What was God thinking, if every single bit of honor MUST be directed towards Him? No, rather, any honor that should be given to God alone should be given to our God, the One and only God. That does not mean we are not to honor God's creatures. Do you honor your children when they bring home a good report card? Do you honor your pastor with devout attention during his sermons? Of course you do. And thus, I can honor Mary and the saints who have gone before us, spreading the Gospel. It is another way for me to praise the Lord.

You think? Well guess what; I know. Talk to an atheist, and he'll tell you that you've thrown logic out the window and that your whole religion is based on pure emotion. Your argument has no bearing. Just as an atheist doesn't understand Christianity, and often has no desire to, you do not understand Catholicism, nor do you have a desire to. You just proved this by taking my explanation, which I believe wholeheartedly, and telling me what you "think" I'm really doing, as if I can't make these distinctions myself.

I'm really amazed you can do this without ever meeting me, as well. Highly impressive. How quick we are to judge what we do not understand.

 

Hank wrote, "As we speak, there is a movement within the Church to have the Pope officially pronounce her the CoRedemptrix with Christ and the Mediatrix of all Graces. And indeed many leaders within the Church have unofficially attributed these qualities to her. Perhaps you already know this."

My professor, who is one of the leaders of the movement, has a website at http://www.voxpopuli.org and an excellent theological reflection at http://www.voxpopuli.org/response_to_7_common_objections_part1.php

I have already read two books for the class, am on my third, and have about four left. The issues are actually quite Biblical and the foundations for the doctrines were taught explicitly in the early Church by figures such as St. Irenaeus, St. Jerome, and St. Augustine.

E.g. St. Ireaneus in his Adversus Haereses (Book 3, Chapter 22) writes ca. 180 A.D., "As Eve, becoming disobedient, became the cause of death both to herself and the whole human race, so also Mary, bearing the predestined Man, and being yet a virgin, being obedient, became both to herself and to the whole human race the cause of salvation."

First, before anyone starts arguing against the doctrines, one should read the material at voxpopuli.org. Then, if one continues to hold objections, one should mount an intellectually sound rebuttal.

Phrases such as "This is offensive," "I can't believe this," "Oh my gosh!," "There is only one Saviour!," "Mary is just a creature," and "The Pope is just a man, who is he to say anything?" simply leave the dialogue at a stand still, and nobody learns, nobody avances.

If the import of the doctrinal formulas corresponds to divine revelation, then we should embrace the teaching with divine faith. If the doctrinal formulas do not, then we should not. But, we will not know until we learn. And, we can only learn if we read. Read.

http://www.voxpopuli.org/response_to_7_common_objections_part1.php

Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam,

Carson

P.S. It isn't everyday that you attend Mass celebrated by a married Catholic priest. I had the pleasure of receiving the Blessed Sacrament today from Fr. Ray Ryland, a convert from the Protestant tradition known as Episcopalianism.

[ September 17, 2002, 08:18 PM: Message edited by: Carson Weber ]

 

Do you pray to children and priests?

 

Posted by Carson: """Hank wrote, "As we speak, there is a movement within the Church to have the Pope officially pronounce her the CoRedemptrix with Christ and the Mediatrix of all Graces. And indeed many leaders within the Church have unofficially attributed these qualities to her. Perhaps you already know this."

My professor, who is one of the leaders of the movement, has a website at http://www.voxpopuli.org and an excellent theological reflection at http://www.voxpopuli.org/response_to_7_common_objections_part1.php"""

Howdy Carson and Gracesaves,
It seems to me while reading this thread that Catholics forget that the same outrage they(you) feel when we (non-Catholic christians) minimize Mary's role in "the church" is the same outrage we feel when you use terms that, to us, exalt Mary to a place where she has a part in our salvation. Us non-Catholic believers (ncb) are so thankful that Jesus died for us and saved us from the fires of Hell and a life of sin, that we don't want to share our Jesus with anyone. (that is to say that we have a one on one relationship with Jesus and do not want a third party involved). It has become clear to me that we offend eachother because we dig into whats "personal". We (ncb) believe our closeness is with God alone, through His son Jesus. The Catholics add a personal relationship with Mary to the picture. We as humans will always defend what is "personal" to us, God has built us to do that.
That said, I don't have a clue why I said it or what to do about it but just maybe we can try harder to advance what we see as "truth" while paying attention to the "heart" of who we are speaking to.

In Love and Truth,
Brian

 

Well said Brian.

HankD

 

Hi Brian,

You wrote, "We (ncb) believe our closeness is with God alone, through His son Jesus. The Catholics add a personal relationship with Mary to the picture"

It may appear to you that Catholics are doing the adding, but in all reality, the Bible has already "added" Mary.

In the Greek, "home" is not in John 19:27. St. John writes that the beloved disciple took Mary into his own. Do you?

Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam,

Carson

 

God bless you and your Christian attitude. I pray that my attitude will conform to this, especially in instances where I put myself above the will of the Father.

God bless, and have a great day!

 

GS, Thanks for the compliment. I need to remind myself of what I wrote much too often We serve a great God!

Carson, seeing how I interpret, and have been taught, that the verse in John is Jesus giving Mary over to the care of his most trusted friend and not to me personally, I have never seen a need for Mary. I need to clarify that. I am very glad that Mary was a willing and wonderful vessel, used to bring our Lord into the world. This is just a difference in interpretation and not meant to diminish Mary in your "heart". I am really trying hard not to attack that which you hold so close.

God's blessings to all,
Brian

 

So you have no need for your Mother then? Mary is alot more than a 'willing vessel'.

She is the Mother of God. Without Mary you don't have Christ.

LaRae

 

LaRae, I think you have that backwards, John 1:1 or is it in 1:2 says that Jesus, the Word, was with God in the begining and ALL things were made through him. Mary was then made by Jesus, so no Jesus = No Mary Therfore Mary is a creation of God, chosen by him to give birth to Jesus. God knew who he was chosing so there is no need to argue whether a different woman could have been picked.

In Christ,
Brian

 

Brian,

Mary said yes. She bent to God's will. God did give her a choice.

Salvation of mankind came from Christ.

Still you didn't really say....do you not need your mother?

LaRae

LaRae, I think you have that backwards, John 1:1 or is it in 1:2 says that Jesus, the Word, was with God in the begining and ALL things were made through him. Mary was then made by Jesus, so no Jesus = No Mary Therfore Mary is a creation of God, chosen by him to give birth to Jesus. God knew who he was chosing so there is no need to argue whether a different woman could have been picked.

In Christ,
Brian

 

LaRae, I needed my mother to enter life but I do not need her now. I am very grateful she is still around and I love her very much but I don't need her.

That didn't really answer the question, did it?
sorry about that, out of time.

-Brian

 

If I called your mother up and told her you didn't need her anymore, I think she'd be very sad.

We need our parents forever, and our parents need us. "Honor they father and they mother" isn't a commandment that stops having application when we turn 18. We will always rely on our parents in some way or another. No, she doesn't support you in the same way as when you were a child, but her support for you will last a lifetime.